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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Didn't "let" it stay. Just didn't occur to me that it was in the wrong section until you reported it. And then I moved it.
    funny how that works. but the thread tittle should have been the 1st clue, without reading further.

  2. #27
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    blah....whatever. back on topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I still take it all with a grain of salt because another insider from GAF said the CPU was better, then a actual dev from Ubisoft publicly pointed out it was unproven. Not saying this isn't but i don't take their word for much because GAF has been wrong about plenty stuff concerning xb1. I take it as a rumor until it comes from a more credible source.
    But hasn't this been brought up by other sources as well? Not like this is the first time we are hearing this.
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  4. #28
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    @Yung, well then this thread should not have been posted in the Xbox section because it's talking about both consoles, not just X1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I still take it all with a grain of salt because another insider from GAF said the CPU was better, then a actual dev from Ubisoft publicly pointed out it was unproven. Not saying this isn't but i don't take their word for much because GAF has been wrong about plenty stuff concerning xb1. I take it as a rumor until it comes from a more credible source.
    you can take it with a grain of salt. all i'm saying is that we know the specs, unless you feel that MS/Sony are lying about their own consoles' specs, which would be illegal.

    we also know what ESRAM does, MS has already told us what it does. they have already revealed its specs.

    there's nothing that is a rumor there. we know there's a limitation, we know it will never catch up to the PS4's RAM even in theory. but yes, you are allowed to believe what you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    @Yung, well then this thread should not have been posted in the Xbox section because it's talking about both consoles, not just X1.
    Let's not make this about sections. It is where it should be now as Yungstar pointed out.

    edit: my fault for even asking.

    Back on topic......
    Last edited by Christopher; 02-05-2014 at 20:17.
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  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    blah....whatever. back on topic



    But hasn't this been brought up by other sources as well? Not like this is the first time we are hearing this.
    It doesn't make it all true though, and you have to consider the sources in some of this stuff. There is way too much bias going on nowadays and its not limited to game forums. Journalist will run with any story nowadays not caring if its true or not.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    It doesn't make it all true though, and you have to consider the sources in some of this stuff. There is way too much bias going on nowadays and its not limited to game forums. Journalist will run with any story nowadays not caring if its true or not.
    the sources for these numbers are Sony and MS. this guy is not saying anything new. we knew this from the moment specs were revealed. and the ESRAM limitation is a unanimous statement.

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  9. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    the sources for these numbers are Sony and MS. this guy is not saying anything new. we knew this from the moment specs were revealed. and the ESRAM limitation is a unanimous statement.
    no, i don't think so. neither MS or Sony ever made a statement referring to one RAM never catching another. As a matter of fact, neither did the so called insider. The OP just put that in their because the title of the article is:

    Xbox One vs PS4: ESRAM "Not Much Faster Than GDDR5, Can Never Have Sustained Speed, It's Bottleneck"
    This just goes back to what i was saying before about journalism and gamers. That title clearly says its faster than GDDR5 but it cant be sustained. It never said anything about catching up which makes the title misleading. Now if the title said that ESRAM would never sustain the speed of GDDR5 that would be closer to what the article and his tweets is actually referring to.


    josh hanlon @23hanlon @atPeteDodd do u think what he told me is true about the esram apparently its super fast an expensive
    atFamousmortimer @atPeteDodd
    Follow
    @23hanlon It's faster than ddr3, but it's not much faster than gddr5 and there's only 32mb of it. It's a bottleneck, plain and simple.


    josh hanlon @23hanlon @atPeteDodd do u think what he told me is true about the esram apparently its super fast an expensive
    atFamousmortimer @atPeteDodd
    Follow
    @23hanlon But like most bottlenecks they will get better at getting around it. But it will never have the sustained speed of gddr5.
    7:55 PM - 30 Jan 2014




    josh hanlon @23hanlon @atPeteDodd no I understand that but it will help with rendering 1080p 60fps on screen im told devs arnt use to esram not yet......
    atFamousmortimer @atPeteDodd
    Follow
    @23hanlon ESRAM isn't all that different than edram which is what the 360 used. Devs will get better with it but it's not exactly foreign
    8:19 PM - 30 Jan 2014

    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 02-05-2014 at 22:10.

  10. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    no, i don't think so. neither MS or Sony ever made a statement referring to one RAM never catching another. As a matter of fact, neither did the so called insider. The OP just put that in their because the title of the article is:

    This just goes back to what i was saying before about journalism and gamers. That title clearly says its faster than GDDR5 but it cant be sustained. It never said anything about catching up which makes the title misleading. Now if the title said that ESRAM would never sustain the speed of GDDR5 that would be closer to what the article and his tweets is actually referring to.
    [URL="https://twitter.com/23hanlon"]
    ESRAM is faster than GDDR5 but there's 32MBs of it. You are comparing 8GBs of 176GB/s RAM to 32MBs of 204GB/s. That's not an accurate comparison.

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  12. #34
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    Yawn, wake me up when a dev talks to us....

  13. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yawn, wake me up when a dev talks to us....
    what is that going to change?

    project cars dev implied that it was inferior the GDDR5.

    you think that 68GB/s is going to catch up to 176 sustained with a 32MB cache? lol ok. like we've been doing since february...we'll see...soon enough. in fact, we're seeing it already but people are in denial.

  14. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    ESRAM is faster than GDDR5 but there's 32MBs of it. You are comparing 8GBs of 176GB/s RAM to 32MBs of 204GB/s. That's not an accurate comparison.
    Dude, i'm not comparing anything because i don't know enough about the stuff, but i do know what i read, and this Dodd person never said anything about ESRAM never catching DDR5. He said that it has bottlenecks and can't sustain the speed like GDDR5. Unless i missed something, i don't see where he said it would never catch DDR5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Dude, i'm not comparing anything because i don't know enough about the stuff, but i do know what i read, and this Dodd person never said anything about ESRAM never catching DDR5. He said that it has bottlenecks and can't sustain the speed like GDDR5. Unless i missed something, i don't see where he said it would never catch DDR5.
    that's because ESRAM is a cache, it's the DDR3 that is the actual RAM, which has a max bandwidth of 68GB/s. ESRAM is a helper, it's not the actual RAM that would hold all the data. it can only hold a little at a time, it's going to be a bottleneck. anyone that is denying this either is lying or doesn't understand technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    what is that going to change?

    project cars dev implied that it was inferior the GDDR5.

    you think that 68GB/s is going to catch up to 176 sustained with a 32MB cache? lol ok. like we've been doing since february...we'll see...soon enough. in fact, we're seeing it already but people are in denial.
    Yawn..keep it coming your not a dev, I've told everyone multple times how they use esram, well before any dev mentioned it, but lets revist what they and I have been saying...

    Crytek
    We put our most accessed render targets like the G-Buffer targets into ESRAM. Writing to ESRAM yields a considerable speed-up. While 32MB may not be enough to use something like MSAA to the fullest, with a smart memory management strategy it is possible to deal with that.
    Project Cars
    Our engine uses a light pre-pass style rendering approach and after experimenting with a number of different variations we found it was more efficient to use eSRAM to hold the deferred render targets. Careful use of eSRAM like this for the various render stages mitigates some of the advantage that PS4 has with its faster unified GDDR5 memory
    Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/project-cars-u...qc1RVwCRJLx.99
    That's what it was designed to do, when you really need the bandwidth, its designed to be there for you. Just like it was last gen
    It is not and has never been designed to compete as an across the board speed up.

    You do not need 192 gb/s sustained, NO GAME EVER will reach that.

    Now, do you need more than what the 32mb allows you to do? Depends what your doing.
    It certainly not as flexible as just being able to throw what ever and not have to worry about it thats for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    that's because ESRAM is a cache, it's the DDR3 that is the actual RAM, which has a max bandwidth of 68GB/s. ESRAM is a helper, it's not the actual RAM that would hold all the data. it can only hold a little at a time, it's going to be a bottleneck. anyone that is denying this either is lying or doesn't understand technology.
    You can make that argument about the two RAMs but my thing is the title of the thread and what is actually said isnt the same. ESRAM is faster but can't maintain it like GDDR5. Now what does the OP mean by never catching DDR5? Is that something he's saying, because the article didn't.

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    Sorry for my lack of knowledge with memory and such, but is this why multiplat PS4 games are looking and performing better than the XB1 counterparts?

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    Pete Dodd: ESRAM Never Catch up to GDDR5

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Sorry for my lack of knowledge with memory and such, but is this why multiplat PS4 games are looking and performing better than the XB1 counterparts?
    Do You mean higer res? No
    Do you mean higer framerate? Possible.
    It has more to do with extra rops and cu's
    Bandwidth issues would show up in assets going in, eg texture quality and model quality


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by mynd; 02-05-2014 at 22:47.

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  22. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Sorry for my lack of knowledge with memory and such, but is this why multiplat PS4 games are looking and performing better than the XB1 counterparts?
    Could be a number of things why they perform different. I guess it all depends on what games you are referring to. There are multiplats that look better on one console and there are exclusives that look better than multiplats.I think the best is yet to come from both. I wouldn't judge too much on these early titles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    http://gamingbolt.com/project-cars-u...mory-advantage

    So yea. Project Car Dev says exactly same as Dodd.

    That they are optimizing for esram and still cant match up to PS4's GDDR5 Ram.

    But can only "mitigate some" of the advantages.

    I don't find anything funny about insiders saying exactly same things as the devs you have mentioned. I find it more funny that you try to deny this. Even your own source is contradicting you.



    Depends on how you define graphics, but I would agree Ryse is prob best looking game so far this gen. I tend to consider resolution and fps on graphics, so I don't think its the best graphics, but def best looking.

    Either way, You missed one point. He is saying even if you jump through hoops, it still isnt enough to compete with GDDR5. So not only it is more complicated, it still is weaker.
    It's absolutely weaker. You are correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yawn..keep it coming your not a dev, I've told everyone multple times how they use esram, well before any dev mentioned it, but lets revist what they and I have been saying...

    Crytek


    Project Cars


    That's what it was designed to do, when you really need the bandwidth, its designed to be there for you. Just like it was last gen
    It is not and has never been designed to compete as an across the board speed up.

    You do not need 192 gb/s sustained, NO GAME EVER will reach that.

    Now, do you need more than what the 32mb allows you to do? Depends what your doing.
    It certainly not as flexible as just being able to throw what ever and not have to worry about it thats for sure.
    "Keep it coming you are not a dev"
    Weren't you the one in the other thread who made up completely false info about PS4 not having audio chip? Asserted your argument as if you knew anything. Then forced to admit you were wrong.

    Yes. Keep it coming...... Btw. even your own quote says Xbox One ram is weaker. It just sounds too apologist..
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 02-06-2014 at 03:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    "Keep it coming you are not a dev"
    Weren't you the one in the other thread who made up completely false info about PS4 not having audio chip?
    Nope, I never said it didnt have an audio chip, I always said it had an audio chip, I did not know it had a DSP.
    You cant read very well. Or ignore what is said (no surprise there).

    Asserted your argument as if you knew anything. Then forced to admit you were wrong.
    No one "forced" me to do anything, I went through the data myself, in much greater detail than you and came to my own conclusion.


    Yes. Keep it coming...... Btw. even your own quote says Xbox One ram is weaker. It just sounds too apologist..
    And you still cant read, are you so insecure that you must go on and on about "weakness". Its like you desperately scared it may not be true, even though no one anywhere in the thread said the Xbox one ram was stronger you STILL BANG ON ABOUT IT.
    Last edited by mynd; 02-06-2014 at 04:32.

  27. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sith View Post
    I find it funny these Milk Carton insiders always speing negative stuff about the x1 design and architecture. You would think they are developers working with the dev kits. The developrs ofroject Cars uses ESrAM while praising the x1 for using it as well. The Witcher 3 developer also praises the x1 architecture. This guy peter dodd is doing nothing but talking FUD out of his ass.
    yes, yes let the rage flow through you.

    your tears give me strength

    ALSO, we dont need to hear from the devs, Tomb Raider PS4 DE (the only Definitive Edition) already has shown the large power gap between both consoles
    Last edited by Peregrin8X; 02-06-2014 at 04:13.

  28. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrin8X View Post
    yes, yes let the rage flow through you.

    your tears give me strength

    ALSO, we dont need to hear from the devs, Tomb Raider PS4 DE (the only Definitive Edition) already has shown the large power gap between both consoles
    To be fair tho, the xb1 version was the "filmic edition" the cinematic experience was superb!

    Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

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  30. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yawn..keep it coming your not a dev, I've told everyone multple times how they use esram, well before any dev mentioned it, but lets revist what they and I have been saying...

    Crytek


    Project Cars


    That's what it was designed to do, when you really need the bandwidth, its designed to be there for you. Just like it was last gen
    It is not and has never been designed to compete as an across the board speed up.

    You do not need 192 gb/s sustained, NO GAME EVER will reach that.

    Now, do you need more than what the 32mb allows you to do? Depends what your doing.
    It certainly not as flexible as just being able to throw what ever and not have to worry about it thats for sure.
    how is any of that refuting what I'm saying? what is 192GB/s? Yes, both RAMs will not reach their full potential, i already stated that, what does that have to do with their relative difference in bandwidth? Oh you think the bandwidth will not be used? lol bs, prove it. I have shown you dev quotes that mention how the fast bandwidth is helping them, what quote do you have to prove otherwise? thank you.

    exactly, depends on what you want to do with the 32MB of RAM. you have to "decide" what you want to do with it. You can't just use it for everything because it's 32MBs of it. mynd, now you're just losing it lol.

    @Sub. I see what you're saying. the article isn't inaccurate in its title, it's correct but it would have been less confusing to say DDR3 will never catch up to GDDR5....or even more easy to understand "X1 RAM will never catch up to PS4 RAM".

    It's saying ESRAM because that's the actual item they're speaking about. what it should have said is that, X1 RAM will never catch up GDDR5 even with ESRAM's help. either way, the article isn't inaccurate, just confusing to those that don't know what it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    how is any of that refuting what I'm saying? what is 192GB/s? Yes, both RAMs will not reach their full potential, i already stated that, what does that have to do with their relative difference in bandwidth? Oh you think the bandwidth will not be used? lol bs, prove it. I have shown you dev quotes that mention how the fast bandwidth is helping them, what quote do you have to prove otherwise? thank you.

    exactly, depends on what you want to do with the 32MB of RAM. you have to "decide" what you want to do with it. You can't just use it for everything because it's 32MBs of it. mynd, now you're just losing it lol.

    @Sub. I see what you're saying. the article isn't inaccurate in its title, it's correct but it would have been less confusing to say DDR3 will never catch up to GDDR5....or even more easy to understand "X1 RAM will never catch up to PS4 RAM".

    It's saying ESRAM because that's the actual item they're speaking about. what it should have said is that, X1 RAM will never catch up GDDR5 even with ESRAM's help. either way, the article isn't inaccurate, just confusing to those that don't know what it does.
    Im not refuting anythign your saying, I am telling you that this line:

    you think that 68GB/s is going to catch up to 176 sustained with a 32MB cache?
    Is irrelevant. Because it wasn't designed to do that.
    Its like suggesting a fork will catch up to a spoon.

    Which is why I think you guys discussing how a spoon is superior to a fork quite absurd.
    Its why have people constantly saying in these threads oh yeah but the spoon is superior to a fork! Like some sort of mantra.
    Different tools, different tasks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Im not refuting anythign your saying, I am telling you that this line:


    Is irrelevant. Because it wasn't designed to do that.
    Its like suggesting a fork will catch up to a spoon.

    Which is why I think you guys discussing how a spoon is superior to a fork quite absurd.
    Its why have people constantly saying in these threads oh yeah but the spoon is superior to a fork! Like some sort of mantra.
    Different tools, different tasks.
    lol what? so why refute my point by saying this: "Yawn..keep it coming your not a dev"

    when nothing you quoted refuted me and nothing you said now did either...where am i wrong?

    yes, you know that it will never catch up, my comment was to people that obvious don't get that.

    so again, why refute when i'm not wrong lol. you should be saying that to those that are questioning it.

    EDIT: read my first comment in this thread. I didn't even respond to it because we've known this since feb 2013. my comment to this topic was "captain obvious-dodd." it's obvious, it's not news.
    Last edited by Omar; 02-06-2014 at 19:35.

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