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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    5 people? that's $#@!ing amazing. kind of shows more proof of how they said PS4 was easy to port to. They ported the PC version.

    size may not always matter but smaller is always going to be more difficult than bigger.
    Its a trade off with how many people work on a project. The more people the more work can be done, but with less people you can get a more cohesive vision of the original projects goals.

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    Tbf too they did the PC and PlayStation versions of previous Tomb Raiders which was superior to the original CD versions, so I think they are just talented in the graphics department

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    Quick guestion: why is the protagonist always standing in a "guard"-stance? :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    They stated from the get go that its their vision for a cinematic action game, hence they are simulating camera lenses and the grime on the lens +lens flare etc, further more the dev just said that doing 1080p would be cheaper for them so the argument that they did it for resource doesn't really hold. Andrea also said this:


    so I would say they are sticking to it

    Image quality is the simple answer. I'll quote myself:
    Yes, but you would still have that bars at top and bottom.

    I would much prefer 1080P w/ fxaa or 2XMSAA over 1980x800 with 4xMSAA.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Yes, but you would still have that bars at top and bottom.

    I would much prefer 1080P w/ fxaa or 2XMSAA over 1980x800 with 4xMSAA.
    The black bars are no where near as noticeable on a 16:9 monitor though. If we were all still on 4:3 TVs, then yeah there would be a fair amount of the screen that is wasted/black bars.

  6. #81
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    Plus over scan on TV is quite large.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Plus over scan on TV is quite large.
    This was more an issue for CRT tvs and similar tech. LCD pretty much do 1:1 pixel mapping, which is why maintaining the 1980 aspect of the image means the image quality is not affected.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar View Post
    The black bars are no where near as noticeable on a 16:9 monitor though. If we were all still on 4:3 TVs, then yeah there would be a fair amount of the screen that is wasted/black bars.
    True. Still, why sacrifice screen space when you are not gaining much (imo) on 4 x MSAA vs FXAA.




    I prefer full 1080P with FXAA far over this weird resolution they want to propose. From the comments I've been reading, it seems like Ready At Dawn made a wrong choice of putting their eggs in MSAA and not even considering FXAA early in the dev stage.

  9. #84
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    I thought FXAA had some kind of blurring effect?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I thought FXAA had some kind of blurring effect?
    It blurrs jaggies. Works well when it does. Sometimes it accidentally blurrs non jaggies, but I am sure algorithm improved.

    It does its job extremely cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I thought FXAA had some kind of blurring effect?
    yes it does. It starts to blur some textures aswell but higher quality implementations minimize this. Also, FXAA works better when your native resolution is higher, so in a 720p gams FXAA will blur more than on a 1080p game
    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    It blurrs jaggies. Works well when it does. Sometimes it accidentally blurrs non jaggies, but I am sure algorithm improved.

    It does its job extremely cheap.
    I love post process AA due to the non existent cost (1-2fps difference) but it doesn't deal with temporal aliasing afaik, which is the creeping jaggies/shimmering of edges while moving.

    MSAA also imporves texture filtering and is essentially a better more efficient version of super sampling

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    True. Still, why sacrifice screen space when you are not gaining much (imo) on 4 x MSAA vs FXAA.

    [snip]

    I prefer full 1080P with FXAA far over this weird resolution they want to propose. From the comments I've been reading, it seems like Ready At Dawn made a wrong choice of putting their eggs in MSAA and not even considering FXAA early in the dev stage.
    FXAA doesn't have as effective a coverage as MSAA.

    As a post process effect, at best it can mitigate jaggies. it does a good job for its cost, but the image is not as clean as MSAA.




    Notice, FXAA can't touch the fine detail as it has no access to them. the pixel data has already been processed (which creates the problem itachi posted) MSAA on the other hand has access to the pixels during it's creation.

    Note: 1xAA is used in every renderer. This determines the final colour of the pixel. FXAA can't influence that and can only work with the result.

    As The Order is purely single player, im not too fussed with artistic choices. Just finished watching Happy Feet, and couldn't care less about the letterbox.
    If the atmosphere of the game is engaging, 1920x800 isn't that big a deal. From the screenshots, the dark london streets seem to work well with this concession.

    Putting their eggs on MS was not a bad idea, the final image in The Order will be flawless.

    the only thing that remains to be seen is what the difference between 4xMSAA and 2xMSAA would be?
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  13. #88
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    MSAA all the way then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    True. Still, why sacrifice screen space when you are not gaining much (imo) on 4 x MSAA vs FXAA.




    I prefer full 1080P with FXAA far over this weird resolution they want to propose. From the comments I've been reading, it seems like Ready At Dawn made a wrong choice of putting their eggs in MSAA and not even considering FXAA early in the dev stage.

    That image is not a good representation of either AA method. The JPEG compression override any edge differences. There are artifacts on the overlaid 8x MSAA and FXAA.

    What is perhaps not known about films, is that a lot of what makes them look 'epic' and grand in scale is a combination of the lens used on the camera and the aspect ratio, as much as anything else in the movie it self. Ready at Dawn seem to really be pushing the movie feel and using 2.35:1 aspect ration is going to help that. 16:9 is actually more of a bastardised ratio to bridge the gap from 4:3 to the wider ratios so nothing is cut off or to large black bars above or on the sides.

    On a side note, if any developer was having issues producing a full 1080p image, I would find it as a highly acceptable compromise to go down to 1980x800. That way they would maintain 1:1 pixel mapping with out a huge hit to actual screen space. Even going with FXAA or no AA, still better than any kind of upscaling.

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  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    True. Still, why sacrifice screen space when you are not gaining much (imo) on 4 x MSAA vs FXAA.
    That has to be the worst and most biased comparison picture I have ever seen.. (and I have seen a few..)
    Huge amounts of compression and target that cannot really give any indication on quality.
    Also FXAA shot is cropped that one cannot see the small details on top of the frame which would be problematic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    MSAA also imporves texture filtering and is essentially a better more efficient version of super sampling
    I am sorry to inform you, but this is just plain wrong.
    MSAA by definition cannot affect any surface information, including textures, shaders etc. (It stores single color sample to all subsamples. (SSAA calculates all information to each subsample.))

    Here is quite recent and correct article on AA modes.
    http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/122
    Last edited by jlippone; 02-13-2014 at 12:20.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post


    I would MUCH rather have 1920x800 with MSAA that 1080p with no AA
    Cool.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    FXAA doesn't have as effective a coverage as MSAA.

    As a post process effect, at best it can mitigate jaggies. it does a good job for its cost, but the image is not as clean as MSAA.




    Notice, FXAA can't touch the fine detail as it has no access to them. the pixel data has already been processed (which creates the problem itachi posted) MSAA on the other hand has access to the pixels during it's creation.

    Note: 1xAA is used in every renderer. This determines the final colour of the pixel. FXAA can't influence that and can only work with the result.

    As The Order is purely single player, im not too fussed with artistic choices. Just finished watching Happy Feet, and couldn't care less about the letterbox.
    If the atmosphere of the game is engaging, 1920x800 isn't that big a deal. From the screenshots, the dark london streets seem to work well with this concession.

    Putting their eggs on MS was not a bad idea, the final image in The Order will be flawless.

    the only thing that remains to be seen is what the difference between 4xMSAA and 2xMSAA would be?
    I am not arguing that MSAA is better than FXAA. It is better.

    I just don't think the trade off for better MSAA for lower resolution or letterbox is a good trade off.

    I do not see that big of a difference.

  19. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    That has to be the worst and most biased comparison picture I have ever seen.. (and I have seen a few..)
    Huge amounts of compression and target that cannot really give any indication on quality.
    Also FXAA shot is cropped that one cannot see the small details on top of the frame which would be problematic.

    I am sorry to inform you, but this is just plain wrong.
    MSAA by definition cannot affect any surface information, including textures, shaders etc. (It stores single color sample to all subsamples. (SSAA calculates all information to each subsample.))

    Here is quite recent and correct article on AA modes.
    http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/122
    I stand corrected. btw what AA options do you have when working with a deferred rendering?

  20. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    I am not arguing that MSAA is better than FXAA. It is better.

    I just don't think the trade off for better MSAA for lower resolution or letterbox is a good trade off.

    I do not see that big of a difference.
    Trust me there's a difference. FXAA gives a fuzzy low res looking image. Just look at the lamp poles on the FXAA image, they look invisible in the distance. The cars in the front look fuzzy, whereas on the right they look clear.

    Trust me, overall there will be a massive difference. x800 with 4x MSAA will look clean and sharp, whereas 1080p with FXAA will look fuzzy and non-sharp. Actually, any resolution with FXAA will look fuzzy, because of the fact that FXAA just fuzzes the image to make edges look cleaner.
    Last edited by KungMartin90; 02-13-2014 at 18:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KungMartin90 View Post
    Trust me there's a difference. FXAA gives a fuzzy low res looking image. Just look at the lamp poles on the FXAA image, they look invisible in the distance. The cars in the front look fuzzy, whereas on the right they look clear.

    Trust me, overall there will be a massive difference. x800 with 4x MSAA will look clean and sharp, whereas 1080p with FXAA will look fuzzy and non-sharp. Actually, any resolution with FXAA will look fuzzy, because of the fact that FXAA just fuzzes the image to make edges look cleaner.
    Correction would be that, it only fuzzies the jaggies.

    Go look at my picture. There isnt much difference. It really depends on scene and location.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    That has to be the worst and most biased comparison picture I have ever seen.. (and I have seen a few..)
    Huge amounts of compression and target that cannot really give any indication on quality.
    Also FXAA shot is cropped that one cannot see the small details on top of the frame which would be problematic.

    As I said, MSAA is better, but not as much as you would think. It depends on what scene you have in game as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    I stand corrected. btw what AA options do you have when working with a deferred rendering?
    Pretty much same options than with forward rendering, but with MSAA you have to do some things manually. (find edges and calculate things per each pixel/sample..etc.)
    Also storing fat G-buffer with plenty of AA samples does cost RAM. (which affects bandwidth during lighting pass.)

    MSAA is typically implemented by rendering G-buffer with MSAA and then doing edge detection pass to select which areas of screen to have lighting at pixel or subsample level.
    Transparencies are usually done in pixel level.

    here's couple of links on subject.
    http://bps10.idav.ucdavis.edu/talks/...2010_Notes.pdf
    http://www.slideshare.net/TiagoAlexS...sis-3-gdc-2013

    Here's couple on subject of clustered shading, which can be used for forward or deferred renderers. (and clearly is the new thing.)
    http://www.humus.name/Articles/Pract...redShading.pdf
    http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~olaolss/...stered_shading
    http://aras-p.info/blog/2012/03/27/t...shading-links/
    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    As I said, MSAA is better, but not as much as you would think. It depends on what scene you have in game as well.
    Problem with traditional MSAA is that it doesn't handle HDR that well.
    MSAA resolve to pixel level is done before tone mapping and so it can 'miss' a high contrast areas.
    Also if MSAA is resolved before things like deferred shadow, fog or lighting pass it's effect can be completely erased. (IE. Gears of War, Froza5.. etc. (both had 2xMSAA))

    Most of these problems can be bypassed by proper custom resolves which is the future of edge AA.
    4x SMAA combines 2xMSAA samples with temporal re-projection with edge detection and reconstruction and has very good quality.
    TXAA is basically MSAA with resolve done right with very nice temporal aliasing solution which reduces all kinds of flickering aliasing. (It also has tent MSAA resolve which blurs a picture a bit.)

    For next I would love to see someone to mix those two methods as the result would be incredible. (edge reconstruction, temporal re-projection with flickering reduction.. etc.)


    For surface anti-aliasing the right way is to rewrite surface shader so that it doesn't alias so much. (basically specular component.)
    This link is the first stop.
    http://blog.selfshadow.com/2011/07/2...ular-showdown/
    And here's something that bridges this to the actual topic.
    http://blog.selfshadow.com/publicati..._rad_notes.pdf

    It's also very important to use area lights as it's a lot less likely to alias something with size than a infinitely small point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGO View Post
    Never? I've played a 2 this gen Dragons Dogma I think and Beyond
    But its not like its forced black bars like in the PS1 era, here in the UK some devs would instead of increasing the resolution for games for our superior PAL resolution, they put black bars on the top and bottom which obviously squeezed the picture and made Cloud in FFVII not only shorter, but fat
    I hated that, also the 60Hz option
    We couldn't have PAL Resolution + 60Hz, we had to have 480p60Hz (blurry mess) or 576p@50Hz (sharp picture, slower refresh rate)
    I choose the 576p@50Hz in the end because NTSC picture quality was $#@! and 60Hz just wasn't worth it.

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    Beyond as in Beyond 2 Souls??

    I don't remember it having black bars. If it did....I guess if the game is good enough you either won't remember or even notice.

    So...come at me The Order!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locomotive View Post
    Beyond as in Beyond 2 Souls??

    I don't remember it having black bars. If it did....I guess if the game is good enough you either won't remember or even notice.

    So...come at me The Order!!!
    How'd you not notice the black bars?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bitbydeath View Post
    How'd you not notice the black bars?

    Thats right....toy with my manhood. God will strike you down for being mean.

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    The Order 1886 looks awesome. Can't wait.


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