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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by MjW View Post
    Ok, so in most states you can just walk in and buy whatever you want? What is the age requirement?


    Alright I got it. I don't think we have anything like Walmart over here.

    Yeah, pawn shops sound scary. Specially if there are any like the sketchy ones in movies.


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    I've never been to any real shady ones... most are more like small chains and then there are gun exchanges, which IMO just overall look more above board than pawn shops. Primarily because the type of customers one gets over the other (gun exchange you're getting collectors and enthusiasts, pawn shops you're getting people desperate for money and others trying to sell stolen goods). Pawn shops still have to play by the same rules as gun exchanges and chain stores, but I just feel there's a higher chance of funny business going on at some of them.


    Here's some brief info on gun ownership.

    The age requirement you asked about, it's 18 for shotguns/rifles and 21 for handguns. Everyone I know has gone through a background check, but there is the gun show loophole, where private sellers don't need to do background checks, which is something I'm against. The background check itself is very loose, they do a criminal check and use the honor system for other stuff (do you abuse alcohol? do you have a history of mental illness? etc). Again, something I'm against and wish there was a way to properly screen people.

    For Texas, there is no waiting period, while California has a 10-day wait and Washington has a 5-day. Others vary, I'm not sure what they are. When I bought my handgun it was a 10-15 minute process. State laws also vary on carrying in public. Texas you need to take a class and the weapon must be concealed, while some places, like Colorado, allow open carry and without a permit. Like this guy:


    In Texas, and I'm sure others, there are limits to where you can conceal carry. Any business that has 51% of it's income coming from alcohol sales prohibits carrying. As do hospitals, government buildings and places that specifically say no guns. Generally schools don't allow it either, though there are some Universities that allow it, and of the places that do allow concealed carry, no gun related incidents have occurred.

  2. #127
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  4. #128
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    Three scenarios...

    1. Guy with a gun walks into room full of people, shots them with the gun.

    2. Guy with a gun walks into room full of people, a guy in the room also has a gun, and shoots the gunman before he can kill anyone.

    3. Guy doesn't have gun, walks into room full of people, and stabs multiple people. Because guns aren't the only way to kill people.

    :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttech10 View Post
    I've never been to any real shady ones... most are more like small chains and then there are gun exchanges, which IMO just overall look more above board than pawn shops. Primarily because the type of customers one gets over the other (gun exchange you're getting collectors and enthusiasts, pawn shops you're getting people desperate for money and others trying to sell stolen goods). Pawn shops still have to play by the same rules as gun exchanges and chain stores, but I just feel there's a higher chance of funny business going on at some of them.


    Here's some brief info on gun ownership.

    The age requirement you asked about, it's 18 for shotguns/rifles and 21 for handguns. Everyone I know has gone through a background check, but there is the gun show loophole, where private sellers don't need to do background checks, which is something I'm against. The background check itself is very loose, they do a criminal check and use the honor system for other stuff (do you abuse alcohol? do you have a history of mental illness? etc). Again, something I'm against and wish there was a way to properly screen people.

    For Texas, there is no waiting period, while California has a 10-day wait and Washington has a 5-day. Others vary, I'm not sure what they are. When I bought my handgun it was a 10-15 minute process. State laws also vary on carrying in public. Texas you need to take a class and the weapon must be concealed, while some places, like Colorado, allow open carry and without a permit. Like this guy:


    In Texas, and I'm sure others, there are limits to where you can conceal carry. Any business that has 51% of it's income coming from alcohol sales prohibits carrying. As do hospitals, government buildings and places that specifically say no guns. Generally schools don't allow it either, though there are some Universities that allow it, and of the places that do allow concealed carry, no gun related incidents have occurred.
    There is no "loophole".

  6. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwes View Post
    Three scenarios...

    1. Guy with a gun walks into room full of people, shots them with the gun.

    2. Guy with a gun walks into room full of people, a guy in the room also has a gun, and shoots the gunman before he can kill anyone.

    3. Guy doesn't have gun, walks into room full of people, and stabs multiple people. Because guns aren't the only way to kill people.

    :/
    2) This is unlikely, given the fact the shooter would already have his weapon out and ready to go. Naturally he'd be on the lookout with anyone with a gun, too. There's really no guarantee of any kind of successful heroism, much less before someone is first shot already.

    3) It's a hell of a lot harder to kill multiple people with a knife than a gun.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 02-16-2014 at 02:55.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    2) This is unlikely, given the fact the shouter would already have his weapon out and ready to go. Naturally he'd be on the lookout with anyone with a gun, too. There's really no guarantee of any kind of successful heroism, much less before someone is first shot already.

    3) It's a hell of a lot harder to kill multiple people with a knife than a gun.
    So being completely unarmed would be better?

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    Why on Earth would anyone think being unarmed against someone trying to hurt you or others would be better?
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    Not unlikely as you might think.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-w...ng-robbers-nbc

    Stories like this are most often ignored, because it shows that the right people with guns can do good.

    Also, harder? Yes. Possible? Very much so.
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  11. #134
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    yeah, i don't think having a gun would really do much as far as securing a mass shooting incident, especially since most places don't allow weapons. could've sworn i've heard of security guards dying too during some of them or at least one of them.

    so i agree with rapture there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwes View Post
    Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. That's all I was saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Why on Earth would anyone think being unarmed against someone trying to hurt you or others would be better?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    2) This is unlikely, given the fact the shouter would already have his weapon out and ready to go. Naturally he'd be on the lookout with anyone with a gun, too. There's really no guarantee of any kind of successful heroism, much less before someone is first shot already.

    3) It's a hell of a lot harder to kill multiple people with a knife than a gun.
    Why else would you say this?

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    To exemplify a fact of reality. Just because a good person happens to be nearby with a weapon doesn't many the guy planning a murder spree won't claim any victims before being put down, and that's assuming he doesn't kill the would-be hero(s) anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. That's all I was saying.
    What possible reason would there be to not have a better armed populace? If there is a chance to save someone, shouldn't it be taken?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    To exemplify a fact of reality. Just because a good person happens to be nearby with a weapon doesn't many the guy planning a murder spree won't claim any victims before being put down, and that's assuming he doesn't kill the would-be hero(s) anyway.
    Which is fairly obvious, so why bother typing it out?

    Better to be armed and have a means to resist, than to not have the option at all.

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    yes, there's nothing wrong with strengthening up the security, but the point was that there are many variables out there. not to mention, it seems that these shooters always target places where they "know" there won't be much security. so unless we arm the entire nation (which is unrealistic), it's not necessarily going to bring a consistent solution.

    it makes sense to beef up the security in places where people aren't allowed to have guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    yes, there's nothing wrong with strengthening up the security, but the point was that there are many variables out there. not to mention, it seems that these shooters always target places where they "know" there won't be much security. so unless we arm the entire nation (which is unrealistic), it's not necessarily going to bring a consistent solution.

    it makes sense to beef up the security in places where people aren't allowed to have guns.
    Or just change that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwes View Post
    What possible reason would there be to not have a better armed populace? If there is a chance to save someone, shouldn't it be taken?
    I don't know why you're asking me. I never said anything otherwise. You and Matrix are quick to put up persuasive arguments that don't need to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Which is fairly obvious, so why bother typing it out?
    If you read Kwes' post, you can see why. He offered three scenarios, the second proclaiming the situation as if a good person with a weapon being capable of stopping anyone from being harmed or killed. The fact is that we have some very big supporters for gun rights on the forum, and some get carried away with what they say or think when it comes to firearms.

    If he was simply being vague and general, then fine. No harm done. If he wasn't, then my comment was apropos -- I was bringing things back down to Earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I don't know why you're asking me. I never said anything otherwise. You and Matrix are quick to put up persuasive arguments that don't need to be.



    If you read Kwes' post, you can see why. He offered three scenarios, the second proclaiming the situation as if a good person with a weapon being capable of stopping anyone from being harmed or killed. The fact is that we have some very big supporters for gun rights on the forum, and some get carried away with what they say or think when it comes to firearms.

    If he was simply being vague and general, then fine. No harm done.
    If he wasn't, then my comment was apropos -- I was bringing things back down to Earth.
    That is how I read it, a 3 possible scenarios, not 3 absolute scenarios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Or just change that.
    i don't know man. i'd be a little scared of that personally. not because of normal people having it because i'm sure they do in this state but because then you don't really know who to trust. how do you know someone taking a gun inside isn't about to murder someone.

    you'd be opening up a can of worms there. it's already difficult to detect people walking in. i honestly don't think many places i've worked had good security. yes, you can't get in some places but i have gotten in my work plenty of times without a badge. in places only employees can get in. so it wouldn't be difficult for someone to pose as an employee and get inside to murder everyone.

    it seems like the ability to not allow guns inside commercial places makes sense. but having more security with weapons would probably fix that without causing more work.

    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    That is how I read it, a 3 possible scenarios, not 3 absolute scenarios.
    but where i agree with rapture is that most pro gun peeps tend to say the same thing everytime and it's just not that simple. that's why it's very important o mention something like, that it's better to be protected than not. rather than stating perfect scenarios. i think that was rapture's point but i'm not going to speak on his behalf.

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  23. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I don't know why you're asking me. I never said anything otherwise. You and Matrix are quick to put up persuasive arguments that don't need to be.



    If you read Kwes' post, you can see why. He offered three scenarios, the second proclaiming the situation as if a good person with a weapon being capable of stopping anyone from being harmed or killed. The fact is that we have some very big supporters for gun rights on the forum, and some get carried away with what they say or think when it comes to firearms.

    If he was simply being vague and general, then fine. No harm done. If he wasn't, then my comment was apropos -- I was bringing things back down to Earth.
    I wasn't asking you directly. Just making a statement in general.

    And yes, the three scenarios were meant to be vague.

    But also, I think it should be noted that I can't think of any people that carry guns, concealed or not, that don't know how to use em.
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  24. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i don't know man. i'd be a little scared of that personally. not because of normal people having it because i'm sure they do in this state but because then you don't really know who to trust. how do you know someone taking a gun inside isn't about to murder someone.

    you'd be opening up a can of worms there. it's already difficult to detect people walking in. i honestly don't think many places i've worked had good security. yes, you can't get in some places but i have gotten in my work plenty of times without a badge. in places only employees can get in. so it wouldn't be difficult for someone to pose as an employee and get inside to murder everyone.

    it seems like the ability to not allow guns inside commercial places makes sense. but having more security with weapons would probably fix that without causing more work.

    but where i agree with rapture is that most pro gun peeps tend to say the same thing everytime and it's just not that simple. that's why it's very important o mention something like, that it's better to be protected than not. rather than stating perfect scenarios. i think that was rapture's point but i'm not going to speak on his behalf.
    Virginia (among other states) seems to be fine despite allowing such practices.

    Also how do you know that a cop won't snap one day and start shooting people?

    It's not something I worry about, people tend to show various signs before commuting such crimes/acts.

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    I think it's important to point out that in either case, guns can still be obtained illegally. I.E. without going through a background check, having a friend family member buy or give or steal a firearm. If that was the case, then I would think more security would probably be the next step. A criminal does not care how they get their hands on a gun. There are more factors at play. When I was growing up the first school shooting that happened in my state was like one in a billion chance, like nobody ever would have considered the notion. It's happening more often now unfortunately, and it's due to a combination of things. parents, tv, video games, the internet, friends ,movies, lack of moral conduct, and even people not being properly informed on things, the economy, ect. It's getting to a point where more people need to be armed than unarmed. Now, in some parts of my state, there are SCHOOLS that have teachers required to carry guns. I would never have imagined that in a million years. It's like a regression in progression. moving towards a futuristic old west where everybody carry's a gun on their hip. I bet a guy may think twice about going and shooting up a movie theater if he walked in knowing the entire theater had guns on them. And on the other hand,,,

    there are just simply people that don't need to shoot guns, especially in a very high stressful situation. Just because someone has a gun on them does really not mean they will use it, even to defend themselves out of plain fear. AND there are people that simply don't need to be cops or any type of security. I don't think this is going to go to one side or the other on this case. I know every body seems to want it to sway one way or another but it's simply not that black and white. You can pass every law banning all the weapons in the world and a criminal will STILL get their hands on one and use it. More security can be a different problem, it would start to feel like 1940s Germany with forces walking around armed for "OUR PROTECTION" but with the good comes the bad.

    In reality and as bad as I hate it, raising prices on bullets is probably the smartest things that could have been done. Now if it got too bad then people would start robbing stores for bullets. So it goes back to if a lot more people were armed then there may not be as much crime if the criminal thought he/she could be walking into a room full of potentially armed people unless she/he just wanted to die and go out with a bang for some reason.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    So the last shooting I know of took place at Purdue University:
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oting/4719831/

    The U.S. keeps having incidents like this happen.

    So my question is, does the U.S. need more gun laws or do we need tighter security?

    For example, with the more gun laws option, a mentally ill guy or certain character would not be able to purchase a gun, weapons, and ammo to go and shoot up a university or high school.

    With the tighter security choice, the guy would buy the guns and ammo but the police or security would meet him at the front gate and possibly stop him.

    What do you guys think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Virginia (among other states) seems to be fine despite allowing such practices.
    i'd like to learn more.

    Also how do you know that a cop won't snap one day and start shooting people?
    the worst i could see is a cop who'd abusing his/her (let's admit, it's always a "him" lol) but it would be very rare for a cop to do this...which begs the question, do we have record of this? not saying it can't happen but then wouldn't it be more probable to happen to someone who is just a regular gun owner?

    It's not something I worry about, people tend to show various signs before commuting such crimes/acts.
    and how has that stopped someone from murdering people? it hasn't yet. what i will say though is that some people would probably be able to detect better than others and some people would be better at doing something about it before it happens...but what signs would you really call that they would be enough to take preemptive action?

    it's so difficult to know who would do something and who wouldn't...i've seen regular people who act crazier than what these mass shooters did before the act. you really can't know for sure who is really going to do it. unless you actually caught someone in the act, it would be difficult to make a proper case against them to the police or the court...or you'd probably just be paranoid and bring your gun each day you think this guy might go off.

    i'm just saying that in reality, even if you think someone seems a likely person to come in and shoot everyone and trust me, i know a guy...you really can't say or do anything about it unless you heard them say something or you see something that is visually suspicious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwes View Post
    I wasn't asking you directly. Just making a statement in general.
    Ah, alright.

    I can't think of any. Society largely regulates itself, and firearms are just a tool to accomplish that. The US Government is completely untrustworthy, and I think it's good that the American people are (partially) armed to take it down. The issue though with that is the dramatic lack of motivation on our part. The American people have become content with mediocrity and decreasing freedoms. Guns are fine and dandy, but unless people are willing to use them then it hardly matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and how has that stopped someone from murdering people? it hasn't yet.
    Indeed. This is because America doesn't take mental health as seriously as it should.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Indeed. This is because America doesn't take mental health as seriously as it should.
    and this is something i don't understand about the whole mass shooting phenomenon. it's not like America just started getting mentally ill people. we've had millions of them for, i'm positive, decades.

    why is it that this phenomenon has just occurred in the past decade or so? why does this not occur in the same pattern as other countries when other nations also have the mentally ill. and i don't know for sure but i wouldn't be surprised if these nations also had laxed gun laws. it doesn't make sense to me that "guns" would be the reason for these random shootings for psychotic reasons.

    if that were the case, i'm positive we'd see more of it in Afghanistan where people live by the gun and that's their only means to protect themselves. it's very odd to me that these things are happening, so far we don't have any interpretation of why it's happening. to me, it doesn't make sense.

    my previous thoughts were the same as yours but i'm starting to deviate from that thought because i'm fairly sure that U.S. takes care of their mentally ill a lot better than the developing countries and it's far more easy to obtain black market weapons in these developing countries. this is definitely an anomaly and sort of makes me wonder what else here is at work...referring to my earlier comments in this thread.

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