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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i'd like to learn more.
    Well, in VA, you can carry concealed in may places, including the state legislature. Something that would make legislators in certain other states $#@! themselves. Yet VA hadn't had any problems because of it.

    the worst i could see is a cop who'd abusing his/her (let's admit, it's always a "him" lol) but it would be very rare for a cop to do this...which begs the question, do we have record of this? not saying it can't happen but then wouldn't it be more probable to happen to someone who is just a regular gun owner?
    Well cop's tend to have stressful lives. And the nature of their job makes it likely that they see the worst kinds of people.

    Examples? How about this guy:



    Also 1 of only 2 crimes committed with a legally owned fully automatic firearm, was done by a cop. (Roger Waller)

    Also based on research done by various states (texas specifically), people with CCW permits have lower crime rates in general than the general populace.


    and how has that stopped someone from murdering people? it hasn't yet. what i will say though is that some people would probably be able to detect better than others and some people would be better at doing something about it before it happens...but what signs would you really call that they would be enough to take preemptive action?
    Point is, people don't just wake up one day and decide they will go out that same day and kill a bunch of people.

    With the various mass shootings that have taken place over the last several years, there have been several indicators (if not outright mental issues/flags) that should have been picked up by the people involved in the mass shooter's lives. Now you can't just assume that every thing that pops up means somebody will go commit a crime, but people missed a lot of signs that could have been used to prevent said mass shootings if they paid closer attention/cared more.

    it's so difficult to know who would do something and who wouldn't...i've seen regular people who act crazier than what these mass shooters did before the act. you really can't know for sure who is really going to do it. unless you actually caught someone in the act, it would be difficult to make a proper case against them to the police or the court...or you'd probably just be paranoid and bring your gun each day you think this guy might go off.

    i'm just saying that in reality, even if you think someone seems a likely person to come in and shoot everyone and trust me, i know a guy...you really can't say or do anything about it unless you heard them say something or you see something that is visually suspicious.
    Not true, you can speak up and try to get them help. And if you think something really bad might happen you can notify the police.

    It's odd how various people say that more/better background checks are the solution, but do nothing to ensure that mental health records are put into the system/database.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and this is something i don't understand about the whole mass shooting phenomenon. it's not like America just started getting mentally ill people. we've had millions of them for, i'm positive, decades.

    why is it that this phenomenon has just occurred in the past decade or so? why does this not occur in the same pattern as other countries when other nations also have the mentally ill. and i don't know for sure but i wouldn't be surprised if these nations also had laxed gun laws. it doesn't make sense to me that "guns" would be the reason for these random shootings for psychotic reasons.

    if that were the case, i'm positive we'd see more of it in Afghanistan where people live by the gun and that's their only means to protect themselves. it's very odd to me that these things are happening, so far we don't have any interpretation of why it's happening. to me, it doesn't make sense.

    I had not given much thought into the mentally ill thing. Until recent years when I was around a lot more medicated kids. And since we live in the U.S. and I think you actually live about 5 hours from where I live, I think we can agree that the U.S. has a big industry in pharmacy. Prescribed medication is big time business and I had not known how crazy its been on kids as young as 8 years old. I had the chance to be in a spot that put me around kids that were in trouble. The had been placed in kiddie jail and the first thing that happens is they are talked to by a councilor and then they are immediately prescribed and REQUIRED to take medication by a judge overseeing their case. So what I found was if the kid did not want to break probation he/she was required to take the medication.

    Imagine that for a second. And kids can bull$#@! their way through a lot of stuff so one factor is the potential for getting these kids reliant on medication to even function. I felt bad for some of them because it's like some of them were zombies and I wondered what would happen if when they get older and they don't get meds anymore could they cope with reality and the real world. What im getting at, is there is too much heavy reliance on medications and too young of an age. sometimes people that claim this just need an ass whipping. I would like to see if there was a connection with some of these shootings and if those people were taking medications or not.



    my previous thoughts were the same as yours but i'm starting to deviate from that thought because i'm fairly sure that U.S. takes care of their mentally ill a lot better than the developing countries and it's far more easy to obtain black market weapons in these developing countries. this is definitely an anomaly and sort of makes me wonder what else here is at work...referring to my earlier comments in this thread.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Well, in VA, you can carry concealed in may places, including the state legislature. Something that would make legislators in certain other states $#@! themselves. Yet VA hadn't had any problems because of it.
    i don't know enough to comment about that. i guess it can be certainly seen as an option. why do you think they don't want to allow it to happen though?

    Well cop's tend to have stressful lives. And the nature of their job makes it likely that they see the worst kinds of people.

    Examples? How about this guy:



    Also 1 of only 2 crimes committed with a legally owned fully automatic firearm, was done by a cop. (Roger Waller)

    Also based on research done by various states (texas specifically), people with CCW permits have lower crime rates in general than the general populace.
    so my question still stays the same, how does it make it better to allow regular people to own it when the professionals can't handle it.

    Point is, people don't just wake up one day and decide they will go out that same day and kill a bunch of people.
    actually i'd argue that's probably how it is. these people may have contemplated it but it doesn't seem like they have planned it most of the time. except that theater shooter.

    With the various mass shootings that have taken place over the last several years, there have been several indicators (if not outright mental issues/flags) that should have been picked up by the people involved in the mass shooter's lives. Now you can't just assume that every thing that pops up means somebody will go commit a crime, but people missed a lot of signs that could have been used to prevent said mass shootings if they paid closer attention/cared more.
    none of these people had any more symptoms than regular semi-ill symptoms. none of them had much of a history. there are millions of mentally ill people. trust me when i say this, you don't know who's going to do it next.

    Not true, you can speak up and try to get them help. And if you think something really bad might happen you can notify the police.
    like i said, i can't think of a situation where i would know for sure that a person is going to come in soon and murder someone or that i've caught this person before the act. sure, we can only hope and the govt. did ask psychiatrists/psychologists and general docs to try and inform the police about any people that seem highly suspicious or maybe admitted to something...but really, mental cases are so complicated, you can have two crazy people that are about the same and one might end up just killing themselves or just one person or never hurt another person and then you have this phenomenon. i'd even argue these people aren't that mentally ill because they seem to plan their $#@! real well.

    It's odd how various people say that more/better background checks are the solution, but do nothing to ensure that mental health records are put into the system/database.
    you know, both of them seem to me like a way to gain more information about the general populous and thus having means to keep them under control.
    Last edited by Omar; 02-16-2014 at 05:26.

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    I think the U.S. relies too heavily on medication. It's easy and pretty common. In fact juveniles that get in trouble almost immediately talk to a councilor and then are prescribed medication, to which often times it is a requirement they take or risk being sent back to kiddie jail. That's kind of crazy. It's happening to kids as young as 8 years old. Sometimes kids don't need medication. They need an ass whipping. I also thinks its too easy to Bull$#@! your way through shrinks. But pharmacy is a big business in the U.S. I wonder if any of the shooters were on medications. It would be interesting to see if there is a connection.

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  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgustipated View Post
    I think the U.S. relies too heavily on medication. It's easy and pretty common. In fact juveniles that get in trouble almost immediately talk to a councilor and then are prescribed medication, to which often times it is a requirement they take or risk being sent back to kiddie jail. That's kind of crazy. It's happening to kids as young as 8 years old. Sometimes kids don't need medication. They need an ass whipping. I also thinks its too easy to Bull$#@! your way through shrinks. But pharmacy is a big business in the U.S. I wonder if any of the shooters were on medications. It would be interesting to see if there is a connection.
    i would think they were connected to medications. i'm sure some of these people were diagnosed with issues. and depending on what these people were going through before they did the act, it would not be surprising to me that they weren't being compliant with their medication, hence they lost control of themselves.

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    which leads me to wonder if in some cases the medication may be the problem. some of those side effects are really weird. like for example I was at work and a few people were on a medication that was supposed to help them stop smoking. They all had one thing in common, they all said they had really weird dreams. In any case, I don't think that the background check thing would work simply because people taking medication is like almost common place now, I bet you there are senators that are on anti depressants but still love to go duck hunting. That's why I don't think any of the background check stuff will work because the system will already be flawed. or rather, even more flawed. Because they aren't going to tell a senator or even the president he cant have his gun to hunt with because he's on meds would they?



    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i would think they were connected to medications. i'm sure some of these people were diagnosed with issues. and depending on what these people were going through before they did the act, it would not be surprising to me that they weren't being compliant with their medication, hence they lost control of themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    There is no "loophole".
    Sorry, wasn't saying gun show loophole as an attack on it, but rather mentioning it as some people bring it up whenever background checks for guns are mentioned.

    As I said, I am against it as I don't like the idea of absolutely no checks, but I do realize that most sales done at gun shows are between two people who are legally allowed to own guns, and a background check likely wouldn't have an impact on the transaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwes View Post
    Not unlikely as you might think.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-w...ng-robbers-nbc

    Stories like this are most often ignored, because it shows that the right people with guns can do good.

    Also, harder? Yes. Possible? Very much so.
    This happened in a city close to mine.

    Citizen shoots trailer park gunman, saves Texas officer


    Granted it could be argued that it never would have happened if the first man wasn't armed, but it does prove that an armed civilian can defend against an armed assailant.



    Also to comment on some of the gun free zone stuff, look at the stats around the Gun Free School Zones Act:
    Stockman's bill notes that there have been 10 school shootings killing at least four people each in the 22 years since the "gun-free" bill passed - compared to only two in the 22 years before passage.
    http://cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannis...mass-shootings

    The first notable school shooting was the University of Texas massacre in 1966. From then until the "Gun-Free Schools Act" was passed in 1994, implemented in 1995, there were 29 more, about 1 per year with 67 people killed, which averages to 2.4 per year. Since "Gun-Free” School Zones Act there have been 87 incidents, 5 incidents per year resulting in 192 killed, bringing the average to 11.3 per year.

    That’s a 370% increase in the rate of school shooting deaths since the GFSZA was enacted in 1994.

    Compare that with the U.S. homicide rate, which decreased by 14% since the GFSZA was enacted (1950 to 1994 vs. 1995 to 2007).
    http://www.grnc.org/grnc-alerts-arch...hool-zones-act

    Now I'm not saying to just arm our children, but that, along with where most shootings occur (like malls, another notable "gun free" zone), it's clear that shooters go after the most defenseless of people.

    In the Aurora, Colo., movie theater shooting, out of seven theaters showing the Batman movie premiere within 20 minutes of the suspect's apartment, only one banned permitted concealed handguns. The suspect didn't go to the closest nor the largest, but to the one that banned self-defense.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...-lott/1791085/


    Personally, I've never understood why people think letting CHL holders carry their guns places is somehow making the area less safe. When you compare CHL holders to the general public, you'll find they rarely commit crimes. If someone wanted to go somewhere and shoot people, they aren't going to be turned back by a sign that says no guns beyond this point.

    Here's a graphic about CHL holders versus general public for those who don't want to click through the numerous PDF files (I don't either).
    Last edited by ttech10; 02-16-2014 at 05:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i don't know enough to comment about that. i guess it can be certainly seen as an option. why do you think they don't want to allow it to happen though?
    Fear, paranoia, irrationality, a threat to their views/power/control. For example, certain Maryland legislators referred to Virginia (regarding their gun laws) as the wild west. Despite the fact that Virginia has a much lower violent crime rate than Maryland. (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...abledatadecpdf)

    So clearly those MD legislators are full of $#@!.

    so my question still stays the same, how does it make it better to allow regular people to own it when the professionals can't handle it.
    a few things to note.

    #1 These example are not common, so it isn't really an issue. Law enforcement officers as a whole (in general) are law abiding.

    #2: LEO's aren't really professionals (in general) when it comes to the use of firearms. Most LE agencies standards are mediocre regarding firearms qualification and training. Combine that with stupid agency policies and that most LEO's who view firearms as just another tool, who don't do anything beyond the agency minimums for qualification/training. All that leads to problems when the use of firearms by LEO's.

    Now I'm not saying that all LEO's are incompetent/mediocre regarding firearms use, but unless you go to higher levels (state troopers/police or federal law enforcement), LEO shooting skills leave much to be desired.

    Just look at the NYPD in NYC. I'd be more scared of them than the criminals they are supposed to protect the city from.

    #3: Unlike LEO's, regular citizens who carry tend to be enthusiasts/have an interest in firearms. Therefore they are motivated to train themselves on a continual basis so that if they do need to use their weapon, they will be able to do so successfully/in a proper manner.

    Here is just one example of the knowledge of normal citizens being used by the "professionals":

    http://firearmusernetwork.com/2013/0...tion-shooters/

    http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers...-shooters.html



    actually i'd argue that's probably how it is. these people may have contemplated it but it doesn't seem like they have planned it most of the time. except that theater shooter.
    VT shooter

    Colorado theater shooter

    Adam Lanza

    DC Navy Yard Shooter

    They all had planned their shooting in advance to a certain extent. This wasn't just something that happened, but came to be over a significant period of time.

    Mass shooters don't just act, they plan their shootings to have the maximum effect. (in their minds)


    none of these people had any more symptoms than regular semi-ill symptoms. none of them had much of a history. there are millions of mentally ill people. trust me when i say this, you don't know who's going to do it next.
    Much more could be done to have possibly prevented these people from committing these acts. Hell if their mental records were put into the NICS database, they could have been prevented from buying a gun legally. That is just one example of something that could have been done.

    like i said, i can't think of a situation where i would know for sure that a person is going to come in soon and murder someone or that i've caught this person before the act. sure, we can only hope and the govt. did ask psychiatrists/psychologists and general docs to try and inform the police about any people that seem highly suspicious or maybe admitted to something...but really, mental cases are so complicated, you can have two crazy people that are about the same and one might end up just killing themselves or just one person or never hurt another person and then you have this phenomenon. i'd even argue these people aren't that mentally ill because they seem to plan their $#@! real well.
    Just as I said above, at the very least these people shouldn't be able to pass the NICS background check to legally purchase a firearm.

    you know, both of them seem to me like a way to gain more information about the general populous and thus having means to keep them under control.
    Possibly, but there doesn't seem to be a point in having a background check system for firearms if mentally ill can pass the check and those that knowingly lie on the 4473 form or engage in a straw purchase are not prosecuted.

    And trust me, if the government ever crossed that line there is no way they would be able to really control the general populace, assuming they don't cross that line incrementally though.

    That seems to be more likely though, given the number of dumb/ignorant people in this country. (hell, the world)

    Quote Originally Posted by ttech10 View Post
    Sorry, wasn't saying gun show loophole as an attack on it, but rather mentioning it as some people bring it up whenever background checks for guns are mentioned.

    As I said, I am against it as I don't like the idea of absolutely no checks, but I do realize that most sales done at gun shows are between two people who are legally allowed to own guns, and a background check likely wouldn't have an impact on the transaction.


    If you look at the studies done by the government, the percentage of firearms bought from private sales is 1.4 percent. (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf) (table 14)

    Basically a non issue compared to the other sources of guns used by criminals. Also note, the many people only sell to individuals that posses a concealed carry permit. (who therefore have undergone some kind of background check to get that permit)

    Not to mention the larger issues with "universal background checks" regarding enforceability and essentially backdoor registration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and this is something i don't understand about the whole mass shooting phenomenon. it's not like America just started getting mentally ill people. we've had millions of them for, i'm positive, decades.
    Just because somebody is mentally ill does not mean they are going out to kill people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacP View Post
    Just because somebody is mentally ill does not mean they are going out to kill people.
    that was exactly my point. it hasn't happened for decades, why now? i haven't heard any studies on this yet.

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    That's what I'm saying. The 'Why now' part. I think it's to do with a combo of our society making taking medication common place, the types of medication taken, and then the possible side effects, top that with an immoral society that is full of board teens that want to play the knock out game just for fun, in combination with the crap on tv, some movies and lack of parental supervision, that and the internet and other media, also you have the unstable economy, the weight of government and the have's vs the have not's. All these things play a factor and I can only think the very core has to be our countries decline to hold morals and values. Government is trying to tell what is best when they are out of touch with 'the people' couple that with people pointing fingers and not taking blame or trying to fix things and mistakes that are made. It's a bit of a circus if you stand back and just watch everything from an outsider point of view.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    that was exactly my point. it hasn't happened for decades, why now? i haven't heard any studies on this yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    If you look at the studies done by the government, the percentage of firearms bought from private sales is 1.4 percent. (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf) (table 14)

    Basically a non issue compared to the other sources of guns used by criminals. Also note, the many people only sell to individuals that posses a concealed carry permit. (who therefore have undergone some kind of background check to get that permit)

    Not to mention the larger issues with "universal background checks" regarding enforceability and essentially backdoor registration.
    Thanks, didn't know about that. Been to gun shows but only to look around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    that was exactly my point. it hasn't happened for decades, why now? i haven't heard any studies on this yet.
    In the past, the mentally ill use to be institutionalized. That hasn't been the case for the past few decades. And mental health has taken a backseat compared to other forms of health. (doesn't help that we are pill crazy when it comes to mental health "solutions")

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post

    "Guns" are not really the issue. There are other factors at play here as to why our society is the way it is.
    Let me ask you this:

    Why is it the safer countries in the world have strict gun laws?

    http://www.statisticbrain.com/safest...-in-the-world/

    Japan is number 1 and they have strict gun laws:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/canad...control-2013-1

    I know the 2nd amendment states we have the right to bear arms, but here's a good question that I have not seen asked on PSU yet:

    What happens when your rights put other people in danger or cause danger?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    In the past, the mentally ill use to be institutionalized. That hasn't been the case for the past few decades. And mental health has taken a backseat compared to other forms of health. (doesn't help that we are pill crazy when it comes to mental health "solutions")
    This.

    There's also a positive correlation between the way the media represents killers and mass-murderers and the rise of these sort of events. People do it as a way to gain infamy, or to 'go out with a bang'. It's something that has, culturally, developed as reminding option for those willing to do it or with. All of this is happening despite crime in America going down over the last few decades. It's a curious thing indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Let me ask you this:

    Why is it the safer countries in the world have strict gun laws?
    Correlation does not equal causation. These countries are safer because they're more progressive, economically fair, and socially stable. It has little to do with the access to firearms. Gun violence is only a piece of the total crime statistics. If a criminal has no access to a gun then they'll simple use something else. Crime primarily happens because of the mentally ill, revenge/hate, and economic inequality -- not because guns happen to be accessible.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 02-20-2014 at 15:29.

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    i think because crime generally does not affect people that are specifically just standing by. i mean, it can but generally it's not directed towards them, thus the fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Let me ask you this:

    Why is it the safer countries in the world have strict gun laws?

    http://www.statisticbrain.com/safest...-in-the-world/

    Japan is number 1 and they have strict gun laws:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/canad...control-2013-1

    I know the 2nd amendment states we have the right to bear arms, but here's a good question that I have not seen asked on PSU yet:

    What happens when your rights put other people in danger or cause danger?
    You cannot compare countries like that. There are too many variables to account for. Also Japan is rather unique among the countries of the world.

    Secondly, Switzerland (along with several other european countries) contradicts the point you were trying to make.

    Thirdly, that is not the case. Law abiding citizens exercising their rights are not the problem. Also, why don't you ask that question about the 1st amendment. (regarding freedom of speech) Not to mention this quote, "They who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

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    I don't think they need to do either of those options, the media always love to focus on one thing and blow it out of proportion, it's the only way they sell a decent amount of newspapers. I'm sure the vast majority of Americans that own weapons respect the laws and being given tighter laws would feel like victimization because of the small amount of idiots who go mental. No doubt if those people didn't have guns then they'd find some other sort of weapon to carry out their twisted plans.




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    They should ban guns so the whole country can be as safe as Chicago. /sarcasm

  25. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koloss View Post
    They should ban guns so the whole country can be as safe as Chicago. /sarcasm
    i think cali takes the cake on that one.

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    Don't cops get a psychological evalutation once a year? Also, don't ban guns, I like guns. Sorry for you anti-gun people out there, but I'm all for firearms and always have been. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not one of those Pro-American-Patriotists that run around screaming "WEAR YOUR TINFOIL HATS, THE GOVERNMENT IS COMING TO GET UUUUUUUUUS!!!. LOL
    Last edited by Demi_God; 02-25-2014 at 20:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    Don't cops get a psychological evalutation once a year? Also, don't ban guns, I like guns. Sorry for you anti-gun people out there, but I'm all for firearms and always have been. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not one of those Pro-American-Patriotists that run around screaming "WEAR YOUR TINFOIL HATS, THE GOVERNMENT IS COMING TO GET UUUUUUUUUS!!!. LOL
    i'm one of those people but i don't participate in patriotism.

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