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  1. #126
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    Some sources for people who asked.

    How similar is DX11 and DX11.XBO?

    We spent a lot of time making sure that if you know how to write a game in DirectX in Windows, you already know how to write a game in Xbox One, and the games that are being written for Windows 8 that are using DX are porting really quickly to Xbox One. Like often in a day, maybe two, because the APIs are that similar.
    http://www.totalxbox.com/73688/you-c...day-in-theory/


    On some features already integrated in DX11.X and some not being integrated:



    Notes:
    -Draw Bundles are already part of DX11.X
    -Reference counting is gone for resources (this is an example of what I am referring to when I talk about Direct X framework, it has it's own sort "engine" doing things that have overhead costs, stripping these sort of features makes it leaner and more efficient).
    -Resources tables are new to DX12 and will be ported back to XBO on DX12.x


    I will say this Attack, I have yet to have confirmation or non-confrimation that those GPU-CPU bounding is all or partly already on DX11.x

    There is potential that those features are already in DX11.x, but I cannot find confirmation either way. If that is the case then yes, you could take that 30% and probably bring that back to significantly less.


    Anyway this is what we know:




    So we have to asusme this part is also all or part on DX11.x



    I think the question that we really need answered is, is multithreaded CPU scalability already on the XBO, or is this (which is a core feature of DX12) still to come.

    Edit: Ok some more info:

    There are also much more subtle features such as memory management, multi core scalability swizzled resources and much deeper access controls. The net result is a potential gain of almost 20Gflops per frame (extra 4ms for the GPU). Microsoft also claims that the Xbox One will get a 20% boost per frame due to 20% more Gflops being available for use.
    http://wccftech.com/microsoft-unveie...evel-features/

    Well, there you go.
    Last edited by mynd; 03-21-2014 at 23:54.

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  3. #127
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    Dx12 is gonna be huge for xb1 this year and beyond.

  4. #128
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    If that 20% figure actually pans out then yes it will be advantageous, not sure about "huge".
    Last edited by mynd; 03-22-2014 at 00:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Dx12 is gonna be huge for xb1 this year and beyond.
    Yup. Juuusst like the 99 other secret sauces.

    PC getting features X1 API already have should somehow boost xbox.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Some sources for people who asked.

    How similar is DX11 and DX11.XBO?


    http://www.totalxbox.com/73688/you-c...day-in-theory/


    On some features already integrated in DX11.X and some not being integrated:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSzpuRR2FI

    Notes:
    -Draw Bundles are already part of DX11.X
    -Reference counting is gone for resources (this is an example of what I am referring to when I talk about Direct X framework, it has it's own sort "engine" doing things that have overhead costs, stripping these sort of features makes it leaner and more efficient).
    -Resources tables are new to DX12 and will be ported back to XBO on DX12.x


    I will say this Attack, I have yet to have confirmation or non-confrimation that those GPU-CPU bounding is all or partly already on DX11.x

    There is potential that those features are already in DX11.x, but I cannot find confirmation either way. If that is the case then yes, you could take that 30% and probably bring that back to significantly less.


    Anyway this is what we know:



    So we have to asusme this part is also all or part on DX11.x


    I think the question that we really need answered is, is multithreaded CPU scalability already on the XBO, or is this (which is a core feature of DX12) still to come.

    Edit: Ok some more info:

    http://wccftech.com/microsoft-unveie...evel-features/


    Well, there you go.

    Dude. It is the SAME WEBSITE that said Xbox One wont get benefited from DX12.
    http://wccftech.com/microsoft-unveie...evel-features/
    http://wccftech.com/microsoft-direct...-questionable/

    You called this website fake. Now you say it is real?

    Comeon man. Please don't be so obviously biased.

    As for 11x to 12 was to PC port, the video you see runs on PC with Titan Graphics.

    Also, those slide already prove that some of the features discussed are already on Xbox One. X1 wont get bonus from PC getting features it already has.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 03-22-2014 at 00:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Yup. Juuusst like the 99 other secret sauces.

    PC getting features X1 API already have should somehow boost xbox.

    .
    Secret or not, dx12 games are coming soon. Full Dx12 is coming to xb1 according to uncle Phil Spencer. Got my fingers crossed for the next Halo utilizing it. That would be sweet.

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  8. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Secret or not, dx12 games are coming soon. Full Dx12 is coming to xb1 according to uncle Phil Spencer. Got my fingers crossed for the next Halo utilizing it. That would be sweet.
    No doubt it is coming. Benefits it gives to PC was well detailed. As for Xbox, well thats different story.

  9. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Yup. Juuusst like the 99 other secret sauces.

    PC getting features X1 API already have should somehow boost xbox.
    Yes yes that why they called it 12 not 11.4...<shakes head>

    Dude. It is the SAME WEBSITE that said Xbox One wont get benefited from DX12.
    http://wccftech.com/microsoft-unveie...evel-features/
    http://wccftech.com/microsoft-direct...-questionable/

    You called this website fake. Now you say it is real?
    Their original article was sourced from semi -accurate, who blasts MS at every turn, and if you read the dam thing was nothing more than conjecture.
    This one was actually from the conference, reporting on the conference, not conjecture.
    Comeon man. Please don't be so obviously biased.
    Or maybe I can just sort the wheat form the chaff.
    Your the only one looking biased right now, you take a conjecture article and cling to it, you downplay (no you don't downplay you flat out refuse to believe) any potential gain DX12 may get, despite us being told from the horses mouth it will benefit XBO. WTF do you want form them? Anything they say your going to dispell so their isnt much point in discussing anything with you, or talk about anything MS says.
    As for 11x to 12 was to PC port, the video you see runs on PC with Titan Graphics.
    Point being, I wasnt showing you the video to see what they were doing on a PC, I was asking you to listen to what the devs were saying.
    Also, those slide already prove that some of the features discussed are already on Xbox One. X1 wont get bonus from PC getting features it already has.
    <smacks forehead>......really? no $#@!?

    Honestly its like you don't read, or only read only what you want to read.
    Last edited by mynd; 03-22-2014 at 03:41.

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  11. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    lol.....so AMD worked on the PS4's custom GPU "for years".....for free? Nice of them. Sounds like Microsoft got screwed.
    don't think MS would own upto it, but its the answer i come up with on reading what they spent V's what they got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    The X1's GPU may very well have been designed for DX12, but this guy is not the source you want to be quoting. Will have to see what DX12 means for X1 games, but sounds like at this point we know nothing.
    it is hard for me to beleive that MS would be developing a new DX without taking the Xbox into consideration, but then the box is so underpowered graphically when comparing it to PC cards that DX12 will be used on to get the most out of it.

  12. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yes yes that why they called it 12 not 11.4...<shakes head>

    Their original article was sourced from semi -accurate, who blasts MS at every turn, and if you read the dam thing was nothing more than conjecture.
    This one was actually from the conference, reporting on the conference, not conjecture.

    Or maybe I can just sort the wheat form the chaff.
    Your the only one looking biased right now, you take a conjecture article and cling to it, you downplay (no you don't downplay you flat out refuse to believe) any potential gain DX12 may get, despite us being told from the horses mouth it will benefit XBO. WTF do you want form them? Anything they say your going to dispell so their isnt much point in discussing anything with you, or talk about anything MS says.

    Point being, I wasnt showing you the video to see what they were doing on a PC, I was asking you to listen to what the devs were saying.


    <smacks forehead>......really? no $#@!?

    Honestly its like you don't read, or only read only what you want to read.
    Dude.

    First of all, the slide says some of the features are ALREADY on Xbox One which was what I was exactly saying. That is on the slide you showed.

    You have two articles from same journalist. I mean literally written by SAME PERSON.

    If he is not credible like you said, then ofc his second article must not be credible. Ohh nope. Because it suits your agenda better he is suddenly credible again.

    Bro. According to MS, Cloud would improve graphics somehow. DF calls it not possible. MS says possible.

    If what MS said was gospel truth, things would be alot different now. You cant use PR as your source. You were pulling that number out of where sun dont shine and all I asked was provide source. (Obviously that source should not be the one you just called "fake" 2 posts ago)
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 03-22-2014 at 16:40.

  13. #135
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    DirectX-12 confirmed for Xbox One.

    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Dude.

    First of all, the slide says some of the features are ALREADY on Xbox One which was what I was exactly saying. That is on the slide you showed.
    Show me somewhere where I didn't acknowledge that. I have been taking that in to account. Hell I've been at pains to say that at every turn.

    You have two articles from same journalist. I mean literally written by SAME PERSON.

    If he is not credible like you said, then ofc his second article must not be credible. Ohh nope. Because it suits your agenda better he is suddenly credible again.
    Read what I wrote. I said the article was based on a semi-accurate article, semi-accurate.com is a website that gets things wrong more than it gets things right, but thats beside the point. The article you referenced was a conjecture article. The whole article is bracketed with the writer suggesting possibilities only.
    The next article he wrote was a report on the actual presentation.
    There isn't anything wrong with people writing conjecture articles in any way shape or form. You just need to stop reading them as fact.
    Bro. According to MS, Cloud would improve graphics somehow. DF calls it not possible. MS says possible.
    Well I don't think they really meant rendering and I've never heard MS state rendering but everyone sees it as that.

    If what MS said was gospel truth, things would be alot different now. You cant use PR as your source. You were pulling that number out of where sun dont shine and all I asked was provide source. (Obviously that source should not be the one you just called "fake" 2 posts ago)




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    Last edited by mynd; 03-22-2014 at 22:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Show me somewhere where I didn't acknowledge that. I have been taking that in to account. Hell I've been at pains to say that at every turn.
    It sounded like you are under emphasizing whole time. Saying it was possible otherwise.

    Again the slides pretty much say the big improvements for DX12 are already on Xbox One. Which makes sense for the tech demo too.

    Read what I wrote. I said the article was based on a semi-accurate article, semi-accurate.com is a website that gets things wrong more than it gets things right, but thats beside the point. The article you referenced was a conjecture article. The whole article is bracketed with the writer suggesting possibilities only.
    The next article he wrote was a report on the actual presentation.
    There isn't anything wrong with people writing conjecture articles in any way shape or form. You just need to stop reading them as fact.

    Well I don't think they really meant rendering and I've never heard MS state rendering but everyone sees it as that.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Lol. Come on man. Now you go from "total bull$#@!" to "semi accurate"

    As soon as you find something that lines up with your agenda, it becomes truth hence semi accurate.

    Let me guess, you get to decide which portion is truth portion and which is not? Show me a slide, video clip or anything that talks about 30 percent for Xbox One that you have pulled. From direct source. Or at minimum, from well known site.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 03-23-2014 at 02:13.

  15. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    It sounded like you are under emphasizing whole time. Saying it was possible otherwise.

    Again the slides pretty much say the big improvements for DX12 are already on Xbox One. Which makes sense for the tech demo too.
    It says nothing of the sort. We know some of the bits, we don't know any other bits, in the dam video they talk about aspects that they are excited to have coming back to the Xbox One.

    Lol. Come on man. Now you go from "total bull$#@!" to "semi accurate"

    As soon as you find something that lines up with your agenda, it becomes truth hence semi accurate.

    Let me guess, you get to decide which portion is truth portion and which is not? Show me a slide, video clip or anything that talks about 30 percent for Xbox One that you have pulled. From direct source. Or at minimum, from well known site.
    Where did I say 30% for Xbox one? I said not above 30%. And we are only talking about rendering overhead.
    We aren't talking about making the GPU 30% faster. I've also been at pains to mention that as well.
    Pushing a draw call while a significant part of doing graphics, isn't going to make you draw any faster (it will help if the GPu is idle do nothing).

    Look, look at this slide again:



    Those performance gains attached to the GFX only? Just on 50%, that's likely already the same as what the Xbox One is doing with it's low level API.
    Notice I didn't mention 50%? That's because as I already said (repeatedly) the XBO already run's thinner drivers for the XBO.
    its not that aspect that is changing, it's the step before that.

    DX is CPU code it cant make GPU hardware go faster, it can make it run at peak more often, but it cant make that peak increase.
    Even if you increase you draw call efficiency by 20 or even 30% that's not going to result in a direct 30% increase in graphics.

    As for where I got 30% that was my conjecture for rendering overhead on the CPU.
    I never stated that was from any article.
    Last edited by mynd; 03-23-2014 at 03:03.

  16. #138
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    Well, either way you slice it MS seems to think DX12 will give their new box a performance boost (and well that is what the X stood for, in the beginning for sure though putting all the slack on an api update makes little sense IMB as opposed to picking/developing better parts to begin with). I'd hate to resort to such but time is gonna have to be the bearer of fruits here, whether they be sweat juicy fruit or rotten bannanas


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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    It says nothing of the sort. We know some of the bits, we don't know any other bits, in the dam video they talk about aspects that they are excited to have coming back to the Xbox One.



    Where did I say 30% for Xbox one? I said not above 30%. And we are only talking about rendering overhead.
    We aren't talking about making the GPU 30% faster. I've also been at pains to mention that as well.
    Pushing a draw call while a significant part of doing graphics, isn't going to make you draw any faster (it will help if the GPu is idle do nothing).

    Look, look at this slide again:



    Those performance gains attached to the GFX only? Just on 50%, that's likely already the same as what the Xbox One is doing with it's low level API.
    Notice I didn't mention 50%? That's because as I already said (repeatedly) the XBO already run's thinner drivers for the XBO.
    its not that aspect that is changing, it's the step before that.

    DX is CPU code it cant make GPU hardware go faster, it can make it run at peak more often, but it cant make that peak increase.
    Even if you increase you draw call efficiency by 20 or even 30% that's not going to result in a direct 30% increase in graphics

    As for where I got 30% that was my conjecture for rendering overhead on the CPU.
    I never stated that was from any article.
    it says already "zero D3D resource overhead" and etc, so I would imagine most of those benefits are just going from X1 to PC. Not the other way around

    Either way, you were heavily under emphasizing all the "but" and "ifs" that you are making out right now.

    And the source article were crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    It says nothing of the sort. We know some of the bits, we don't know any other bits, in the dam video they talk about aspects that they are excited to have coming back to the Xbox One.



    Where did I say 30% for Xbox one? I said not above 30%. And we are only talking about rendering overhead.
    We aren't talking about making the GPU 30% faster. I've also been at pains to mention that as well.
    Pushing a draw call while a significant part of doing graphics, isn't going to make you draw any faster (it will help if the GPu is idle do nothing).

    Look, look at this slide again:



    Those performance gains attached to the GFX only? Just on 50%, that's likely already the same as what the Xbox One is doing with it's low level API.
    Notice I didn't mention 50%? That's because as I already said (repeatedly) the XBO already run's thinner drivers for the XBO.
    its not that aspect that is changing, it's the step before that.

    DX is CPU code it cant make GPU hardware go faster, it can make it run at peak more often, but it cant make that peak increase.
    Even if you increase you draw call efficiency by 20 or even 30% that's not going to result in a direct 30% increase in graphics

    As for where I got 30% that was my conjecture for rendering overhead on the CPU.
    I never stated that was from any article.
    it says already "zero D3D resource overhead" and etc, so I would imagine most of those benefits are just going from X1 to PC. Not the other way around

    Either way, you were heavily under emphasizing all the "but" and "ifs" that you are making out right now.

    And the source article were crap.

    Also, they were extremely vague about exact benefits coming specifically to X1 in terms of exact figures specifically for X1. If you know anything about MS's PR history, vague= nothing.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 03-23-2014 at 16:37.

  19. #141
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    First of all MS said some of the DX12 features are already on the XB1 not all. MS along with AMD, NIVIDIA and Intel said that there were features that haven't been announced yet that would need NEW next gen hardware to utilize. To me that says a lot about the GPU in the XB1 if it is already capable of running DX12 in its entirety.
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    First of all MS said some of the DX12 features are already on the XB1 not all. MS along with AMD, NIVIDIA and Intel said that there were features that haven't been announced yet that would need NEW next gen hardware to utilize. To me that says a lot about the GPU in the XB1 if it is already capable of running DX12 in its entirety.
    That's the same thing I was thinking. If the xbox 1 gpu is dx12 capable, does that mean we are wrong about the model of gpu we thought was in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's the same thing I was thinking. If the xbox 1 gpu is dx12 capable, does that mean we are wrong about the model of gpu we thought was in it?
    nope. It's not stronger than what we all have known for close to a year now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's the same thing I was thinking. If the xbox 1 gpu is dx12 capable, does that mean we are wrong about the model of gpu we thought was in it?
    Lol Just how far does this rabbit hole go?

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    all the way to china baby

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    Will see you still have the move engines and the 15 specialized processors. Also how now with eSRAM and dx12 g buffers are no longer needed on the X1. DX12 preserves the scene geometry for the entire duration of the render pipeline, eliminating the need for a g-buffer. That's a huge shift right there that's incompatible with existing infrastructure.

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    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's the same thing I was thinking. If the xbox 1 gpu is dx12 capable, does that mean we are wrong about the model of gpu we thought was in it?
    Just like Ps3 GPU RSX is DX11 compatible. (Even though it's a DX9 SM3 class GPU.)

    It doesn't mean that it is as fast or has all features of modern GPU which has Shader Model 5. (DX11 Feature Level 11.0 GPU.)
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...=vs.85%29.aspx

    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    Will see you still have the move engines and the 15 specialized processors.
    DX12 is an API, it doesn't remove a need to have units which actually do the work.
    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    Also how now with eSRAM and dx12 g buffers are no longer needed on the X1. DX12 preserves the scene geometry for the entire duration of the render pipeline, eliminating the need for a g-buffer. That's a huge shift right there that's incompatible with existing infrastructure.
    We do not know what changes to the pipeline DX12 brings, if you have that information I would love to hear it.

    What we do know is that G-Buffer is has nothing to do with a D3D pipeline, it is programmers invention to bypass some problems they have with the pipeline.

    Here's a D3D 11 pipeline.
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...=vs.85%29.aspx

    And here is a fantastic series of posts on what actually happens when data moves trough it. (Highly recommended read.)
    http://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2011/07...ne-2011-index/
    Last edited by jlippone; 03-27-2014 at 14:48. Reason: Readability, more to the point.
    -------
    Couple of nice blog posts about OpenGL.
    The Truth on OpenGL Driver Quality
    Things that drive me nuts about OpenGL

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    Double post.
    Last edited by jlippone; 03-27-2014 at 08:45.
    -------
    Couple of nice blog posts about OpenGL.
    The Truth on OpenGL Driver Quality
    Things that drive me nuts about OpenGL

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    Descriptor heaps and tables
    Resource binding in Direct3D 11 is highly abstracted and convenient, but leaves many modern hardware capabilities underutilized. In Direct3D 11, games create “view” objects of resources, then bind those views to several “slots” at various shader stages in the pipeline. Shaders in turn read data from those explicit bind slots which are fixed at draw time. This model means that whenever a game wants to draw using different resources, it must re-bind different views to different slots, and call draw again. This is yet another case of overhead that can be eliminated by fully utilizing modern hardware capabilities.

    Direct3D 12 changes the binding model to match modern hardware and significantly improve performance. Instead of requiring standalone resource views and explicit mapping to slots, Direct3D 12 provides a descriptor heap into which games create their various resource views. This provides a mechanism for the GPU to directly write the hardware-native resource description (descriptor) to memory up-front. To declare which resources are to be used by the pipeline for a particular draw call, games specify one or more descriptor tables which represent sub-ranges of the full descriptor heap. As the descriptor heap has already been populated with the appropriate hardware-specific descriptor data, changing descriptor tables is an extremely low-cost operation.

    In addition to the improved performance offered by descriptor heaps and tables, Direct3D 12 also allows resources to be dynamically indexed in shaders, providing unprecedented flexibility and unlocking new rendering techniques. As an example, modern deferred rendering engines typically encode a material or object identifier of some kind to the intermediate g-buffer. In Direct3D 11, these engines must be careful to avoid using too many materials, as including too many in one g-buffer can significantly slow down the final render pass. With dynamically indexable resources, a scene with a thousand materials can be finalized just as quickly as one with only ten.
    Just like to point out this DOES NOT eliminate a g-buffer.
    Who the hell made that $#@! up?

    More here:
    http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...lity-more.html
    Last edited by mynd; 03-27-2014 at 09:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's the same thing I was thinking. If the xbox 1 gpu is dx12 capable, does that mean we are wrong about the model of gpu we thought was in it?
    Keep working that secret sauces.

    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    First of all MS said some of the DX12 features are already on the XB1 not all. MS along with AMD, NIVIDIA and Intel said that there were features that haven't been announced yet that would need NEW next gen hardware to utilize. To me that says a lot about the GPU in the XB1 if it is already capable of running DX12 in its entirety.
    No one said all the features will be on X1. Your premises is inaccurate. It is same ol GPU that we know.

    If AMD, Nvidia and Intel said there is a new feature that only works on new hardware, then it wouldnt work on X1 GPU or PS4 GPU.

    simple as that.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 03-28-2014 at 00:34.

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