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  1. #326
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    There's an extremely common conflation of disappointment and criticism.

    I have been disappointed after buying a game, but not believed it was due to a poor attempt by the developers in making a quality product. Other times I have enjoyed a game but felt there could've been more effort by the developer. This is personal enjoyment compared to expected quality. These are separate feelings, and it's unwise to confuse them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    There's an extremely common conflation of disappointment and criticism.

    I have been disappointed after buying a game, but not believed it was due to a poor attempt by the developers in making a quality product. Other times I have enjoyed a game but felt there could've been more effort by the developer. This is personal enjoyment compared to expected quality. These are separate feelings, and it's unwise to confuse them.
    you're right, i have total respect for the developer. i think my example was a little off. i should have stated publishers. i feel that it is the publisher that is raising the price. i do know that zampella (or whatever his name is) should also be somewhat blamed because he made a deal with the devil.

    they could've easily gone indie and it is a great trend right now. i do know that this way they would've never made the money they will now and TF needs it in order to be a much bigger game and take over COD at some point...otherwise it could've just been another normal title with ok revenues.

    so in a way, it also benefits the gamers because the game now will have a great chance at success and onwards. though, that still doesn't mean that EA aren't blood-sucking scum because maybe they are good at making a game popular but they are also manipulative and they ruined BF4...

    it's like walmart, they do some things that brings good to the market and do some things that actually ruins it.

    that's what happens when an entity gets that big. they start to think about numbers more than personability.

    but like i said, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. EA really brought itself back from its previous image but i think they are going to have a big divide this generation. i would not be surprised if some developers stepped away and started their own company...basically going indie.

    i can only hope DICE does. I can only hope Zampella does once they're established.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    humor you on business concepts? lol. i have shredded every single point you have brought up about this discussion. what else is there left?
    What did you shred? Nothing. If anything you stopped posting and relied on Vulgotha whose post was worse than anything you posted.

    i'm not comparing BF to TF, i don't know why that even needs to be mentioned. i said that EA is doing a different pricing scheme with TF, they gave us a starter pack (BF4) and they're practically doing the same, just in a different way...difference being that TF doesn't even match up in content. BF4's content was there but you soon realize that it was all worthless and was put in there for the future DLCs that you'd need to pay in order to fully utilize your vanilla game.
    No you are complaining about EA's business practices, practices that every major publisher has embraced.

    Now, I am surprised as to why you are more concerned by the game than people who are willingly buying the game, and are exercising free will. Unlike you, when it comes to people buying games, I really dont care what methodology is is they use, I have one that works for me and i live with its consequences just fine, they have theirs and they live with those consequences just fine.

    Anyone that invests in something that they dont fully grasp deserves what they eventually get. It may sound cold, but it is what it is.

    different approach but similar practice. either way they're not giving you a full game. that's how they relate. and well, they're by the same publisher so things start to come together.
    You are arguing different degrees. I didnt get a full game in Forza 3, didnt get a full game for Soul Calibre or Halo Reach, didnt get a full game for Gears of war or FIFA, or Forza 4, heck I struggle to see any game that I got full content on.

    This isnt an issue isolated to EA, Sony, MS, Activision.......they all in one way or another are involved in the practice, Sony and MS have laid the platform for the practice to exist, and probably get a royalty.

    So why not canvas your complaint to cover other developers if it is indeed valid?

    that's because you don't get the point. i'm not complaining about TF, because i'm never going to own the game, it doesn't interest me. i'm making an observation and stating why some of the reviews and complaints are valid. i'm not saying what EA should or not do do with TF, i'm stating what is happening and why it's happening.

    if you swindle people, they will complain. that's how the market works. you state that they should not complain because they didn't get swindled, they should have known very well what the product was about...ummm, no, that's not how the market works. you can't assume that everyone "should have known". because we all know that people buy through reviews/hype and aftewards word of the mouth etc.
    No one is swindling anyone of anything. There is something called false advertising, if you think you have been misled, the courts are there at your disposal not to mention various consumer rights groups.

    I had no interest in TF, but ever since E3 I knew what it was about.

    this is why credit cards companies make money, they make more money with overdraft/interest fees than the 3% or so they get from transactions. so you will hear people complain about CC companies. i don't pay those interests but i know that CC business is ultimately a scam. it's built upon swindling people into paying more than they should. so they have the right to complain because it monopolizes on people's weaknesses. that's a problem with free market but that's how it is.
    And that is because people dont read or take time to understand the terms offered. It is amazing what people will overlook when they want cash or even investing on a mortgage. Even in the economic crash of 08' it was amazing how many people didnt know what it was they were investing on.

    thing is, you are saying that those who complain about it are wrong...or that it's invalid...nope, that's also part of the free market, if they feel that it's unfair or still feel swindled, then they can complain about it because that's how it goes. that's why insurance companies aren't popular or car salesman. you think that the world is perfect, it's not...and people can be taken advantage of...they can be ripped off even if the terms are laid out. welcome to human psychology that marketers are taught...oh that's right, i learned that $#@! for the entire time i was in college!
    No, I am saying that complaining about price when you willingly went to amazon, or a retailer of your own free will and gave your hard earned cash is baseless. If you could argue it, good luck.

    you seem to not understand this point of view. i can't make it more simple than this.
    your point of view isnt anchored on any principle, and you havent exactly presented one either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    With all due respect sir, what the $#@! are you talking about! Yes you do hold them accountable even after you bought their product!
    Not on price, which is something that you are trying to argue. You hold them accountable for things like the warranty, providing a functioning online infrustructure, or premium content if you have bought the top tier editions of a game, but you are never going to take them anywhere or hold them accountable for what they priced their game at. You arguing it is laughable. Willing buyer, willing seller. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy anything, no one misled anyone on what TF was which makes your complaints laughable at best.

    Just look at how you have flip flopped.

    have you never bought a $#@!ing product and then thought...wow what a piece of junk! I spent 30 hours researching for this and I think i still made a mistake. You must be some sort of a magician or something. Jesus man! just stop talking! it's hurting my brain!
    Yes, and you can bet I didnt go back to the retailer to argue that they should have sold it to me for cheaper. It is how I learnt to be more careful with money.
    NO! You do change it both ways! with your wallet AND if you do end up being slightly disappointed, you tell others! that's how it works! In your world, no one should ever take a risk on anything...ok well, in this world...all of these manufacturers/developers/makers should let you use their products for as long as you want before you make the decision...WOOPS doesn't work like that, does it!? you are something man lol. i swear. speaking about business concepts with me. go look up what the invisible hand means because apparently you don't! and they teach us that in high school!
    When you buy a game or a console, there are terms of use that are embedded, and most of them are explained to you extremely well and what remedial measures it is you can take if you feel disenfranchised.

    If you buy a game or a console you are basically agreeing to those terms and conditions. These arent things that are hidden from you, and you arent even arguing that point. If you get that product at any price, you are agreeing to those terms and conditions. You were here when there was outcry on MS DRM and ToS.........people were making a big point against them, calling for a change because had they gone forward with them, anyone investing on their product would have to be bound by those TOS.

    You argue and debate, but there isnt any foundation on anything you argue. If you have a problem with something, or a product, just dont buy it. You keep talking of how EA is swindling people, but everything they have done has been in the open.

    Your debate is a non starter.

    lol. either you have "never" made a mistake or you hate yourself, pick one.

    "you" stated "several times" in this thread that they're "not ripping you off"...and yet you are practically saying that they are ripping you off but you should've known better. you are a walking contradictiong.
    It isnt. You should know better whenever you are buying something. By the mere fact that no one is forcing you to invest in it means that you are doing of free will. As I said, the consumer end of free market trade is skewed, and that is why there is a huge responsibility on the buyer to know what it is they are investing on.

    You are only getting ripped off if someone misrepresents a product, none of that happened with BF or TF. I did mention that repeatedly.

    English isnt my first language, but this is straw clutchery of the highest order.

    i admitted earlier that i'm positive some people are just going to be haters but let's focus on the people that are actually bringing up a point. your agenda is that you can't let anything hurt your beloved exclusive (that I bet you don't even care for lol) and in the process, you are willing to ignore what the market means and how it works.
    I am not getting the game, it hasnt peaked my interest, probably never will. I am not the one here arguing EA's market practices when this thing goes around the industry. I am not the one who isnt interested in the console or the game yet is one of the biggest contributors on a dead end argument that isnt anchored on anything while he constantly misreads and changes argument as he sees fit.
    bravo sir, thank you for adding that last line. i think you didn't need to go into all this other bull$#@!, your first post in this thread was pretty much the point here. remember? the first and last comment that i congratulated you about. that is the real reason you're here. but again, thank you for wasting my time like i had assume you were going to.
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  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I don't ever buy into a game unless I know what I'm actually getting. If I bought into a game knowing little about it and found I didn't like the game as a whole, I only have myself to blame. Consumers must accept some responsibility in the choices made. I don't believe a developer should be blamed for making a product and saying it's great.

    However, even honest investigation can lead to an inadequately accurate judgement.

    The point is that the game is, in Vulgotha (and Sufi's?) opinion, isn't worth the price for what it offers. They feel the developers should've add more to the game for what it's priced at, or simply be priced lower. Vulgotha is personally disappointed, and makes his judgement from that.

    I think you're complicating what's been laid on the table.
    If I get that point. Question is, what on earth is it based on?

    What publishers do is they come up with a product and offer it to you as a possible investment, if you rush into the decision, then you have yourself to blame. EA didnt hide anything from the open as pertains BF or TF.

    We arent rewriting business practice here, and anyone that is honest with himself/herself will see this as a complaint that is lacking in substance.
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  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by acryllicaltair View Post
    If I get that point. Question is, what on earth is it based on?

    What publishers do is they come up with a product and offer it to you as a possible investment, if you rush into the decision, then you have yourself to blame. EA didnt hide anything from the open as pertains BF or TF.
    Your entire argument is contingent upon this, no? I'd like for you to define what exactly you mean by "rush into the decision." It's such a lopsided statement that it makes for poor opportunities of ending the discussion and reaching some proper resolution.

    If someone goes to a store to blindly buy a random game off the shelf then, yes, they are at fault. Entirely. But it's not ever that simple. It's easy to see and be dazzled by the hype that's pushed out by the publishing studio and be persuaded into buying. To expect everyone to thoroughly look into every game purchase is unrealistic. Even in the best case scenario there's still room for disappointed purchases.

    What's expected, however, is for the game to, on some level, match in quality (content, polish, fun, etc; it's a vague demand) to what the person was lead to believe. Enough so that it leaves them generally satisfied.

    It's partially the consumer's fault for not being more savvy about their purchase, but also too the developer/publisher for not providing an adequate product. That's how a relationship works between providers and consumers. Thus, the consumer complains -- sometimes fairly, usually unfairly. But that's also how we get better games in the long run, because it calls to action on the developer's part to design a superior product.
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  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Your entire argument is contingent upon this, no? I'd like for you to define what exactly you mean by "rush into the decision." It's such a lopsided statement that it makes for poor opportunities of ending the discussion and reaching some proper resolution.

    If someone goes to a store to blindly buy a random game off the shelf then, yes, they are at fault. Entirely. But it's not ever that simple. It's easy to see and be dazzled by the hype that's pushed out by the publishing studio and be persuaded into buying. To expect everyone to thoroughly look into every game purchase is unrealistic. Even in the best case scenario there's still room for disappointed purchases.

    What's expected, however, is for the game to, on some level, match in quality (content, polish, fun, etc; it's a vague demand) to what the person was lead to believe. Enough so that it leaves them generally satisfied.

    It's partially the consumer's fault for not being more savvy about their purchase, but also too the developer/publisher for not providing an adequate product. That's how a relationship works between providers and consumers. Thus, the consumer complains -- sometimes fairly, usually unfairly. But that's also how we get better games in the long run, because it calls to action on the developer's part to design a superior product.
    There is so much control on the consumer end, protections and legislation, but all that doesnt come without caveats, it would be unfair.

    The market from the onset is always loaded against the seller, all they can do is put out a product and HOPE that it gets traction and delivers in terms of sales.
    Now, people knew what the game looked like, there was a Beta out and minimal time for them to touch it up before it shipped.
    People knew that as a game this title focused mainly on the online multiplayer aspect with a patchwork campaign thrown in.
    Just by reading reviews, we already knew what the content was.

    If you walked into a store and bought on hype, if you went and got it because the case was appealing, or because advertising swayed your purchase, or without really knowing what it was you were buying and you have something negative to say or have experienced about the game, you dont get to complain about what the price was.

    You could come up and complain that the content isnt up to scratch, but that argument would fall flat on the face because you rather willingly invested in the product.

    I will give you this example, I knew that Konami had issues with licensing as pertains they Pro Evo Soccer and Winning Eleven games in the Playstation 2 era, but it was the primary football title that I got that generation before switching to FIFA. We paid market rate for the title, and never once complained that they were swindling us.

    When I get the God willing Xbox One, Forza % is one of the first games i will be looking to invest in, if it is $60, that is what I will pay for it despite there not being as much content as desired because I have owned every Sim turn 10 has put forward. I make an individual decision and am willing to live with it.

    MS, EA, Konami or any other publisher only put out a product out, you are the one that decides whether or not to buy it, and what pricepoint it is works for you.

    If you pay for a game at $60, you on a moral level or a legal one lose any argument where you come up and say that the game needs to have more content.

    If you argue that line, you are basically saying that EA has given you a raw deal, or are somewhat swindling you. If you look at the way it has been presented, it is a case against EA but you have every developer and publisher partaking in the same practices.

    My entire argument is based on willing buyer, willing seller. EA hasnt misrepresented what BF4 was, neither have they misrepresented TF, that is the only grounds for complaint that may have existed yet even that doesnt exist. th terms of use for these games were also clearly spelt out.

    I hate having to debate against a counter argument that isnt based on any substance, and you look at this call for EA to have priced this game lower or added more content and you realize that the argument is neither here nor there.

    I personally cannot remember a game that had full content that I bought, not a single one, but I fully understand what it is I am getting. I dont like the DLC, Season pass, or microtrasaction route that last gen took, and as a consumer I havent invested a single sent in any of those.

    To these companies, what matters is whether or not they are making money. If you vote with the wallet you have a far better chance of changing something that when you are lining up their pockets. I know of people who complain about the CoD campaign being short every year, yet each year they buy COD, invest in all the packs that are put forward........its a cycle of futility that achieves nothing going forward.

    For me, if you take money and buy something without being knowledgeable enough, any negative backlash you experience is deserved. Ignorance is such a foolish thing to be entertained, and I havent seen anyone argue that ignorance is ever something great either.

    Willing buyer, willing seller.
    Last edited by acryllicaltair; 03-19-2014 at 19:04.
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  7. #332
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    You keep exacerbating the 'issue' at hand so it's easier for you to argue against. Your twist of the vocabulary used here is dishonest and unfair. No one believes their money was swindled away. Neither EA or Respawn Entertainment lied about the content of the game. What's been stated is disappointment or criticism for the content provided for the cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by acryllicaltair View Post
    You could come up and complain that the content isnt up to scratch, but that argument would fall flat on the face because you rather willingly invested in the product.

    -snip-

    If you pay for a game at $60, you on a moral level or a legal one lose any argument where you come up and say that the game needs to have more content.
    That doesn't make any sense. Simply purchasing an item doesn't justify the content and quality of the product. Consumer disappointment is a factor that exists -- as it should. It's an honest reaction if you feel your money didn't deliver what you were expecting it to. There is nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by acryllicaltair View Post
    To these companies, what matters is whether or not they are making money. If you vote with the wallet you have a far better chance of changing something that when you are lining up their pockets.
    Certainly. That is solid reasoning.

    But it's irrelevant to the subject at hand. The topic concerns people who have already paid for the product and were disappointed, not people who already know the game is not worth purchasing. The money is gone already, and it was only after the fact the consumer became aware of the product's offerings. These are separate groups.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 03-19-2014 at 19:37.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    You keep exacerbating the 'issue' at hand so it's easier for you to argue against. Your twist of the vocabulary used here is dishonest and unfair. No one believes their money was swindled away. Neither EA or Respawn Entertainment lied about the content of the game. What's been stated is disappointment or criticism for the content provided for the cost.



    That doesn't make any sense. Simply purchasing an item doesn't justify the content and quality of the product. Consumer disappointment is a factor that exists -- as it should. It's an honest reaction if you feel your money didn't deliver what you were expecting it to. There is nothing wrong with that.



    Certainly. That is solid reasoning.

    But it's irrelevant to the subject at hand. The topic concerns people who have already paid for the product and were disappointed, not people who already know the game is not worth purchasing. The money is gone already, and it was only after the fact the consumer became aware of the product's offerings. These are separate groups.
    you can complain about anything, but you lose the price issue once you choose to buy at a certain price point.

    I for one dont have an issue when anyone is complaining about what the game plays like, that is what I would love to see, but price or content? No, not when nothing is hidden from you.

    You cant have your cake and eat it too. As I said, ignorance should never be entertained. If more people paid attention to what it is they were buying or wanted to buy, we the consumers would have such a wonderful marketplace.
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  10. #334
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    Meh. You have a biased simplification of the overarching premise. You misunderstand the buying process and misinterpret the opinions on the consumer's side.

    I don't think there's any value in continuing this discussion. So let's not go in circles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Meh. You have a biased simplification of the overarching premise. You misunderstand the buying process and misinterpret the opinions on the consumer's side.

    I don't think there's any value in continuing this discussion. So let's not go in circles.
    Maybe because it is that simple.

    I go to a retailer and buy a shirt for $20, get home and complain that it isnt worth $20.
    A friend asks why I am complaining when it is I that made an impulse buy.

    Think you get the drift. You would want to argue ignorance should be excused. I am of the opinion that the ignorant set themselves up for disappointment and should they meet it, they deserve everything that befalls them. It may sound cold and uncaring, but truth is that these businesses dont really care about your emotions, they care about your dollars and many here seem to complain while supporting the very same market practices that they support.

    Some here argue that there should be some sort of reprieve for them, but what sort of business would anyone run if they excused every sort of excuse that existed? I feel for people that took their money to get this game but have felt that it fell short, I really do, but as I said, we arent rewriting business practice here.

    That is just the cold hard truth. And yes, business is that simple, you and me may have some emotional attachment to what it is we buy, but to these companies all that represents is something that can be monetized. If people understood that then maybe they would be more careful with where they put their money.

    No one here thinks EA misrepresented the product, so what grounds are there for complaint when you buy a product at a set price? It is hypocrisy of the highest order.
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    Are you really comparing a shirt to a game? Lol A shirt is what you see is what you get. You pick up a game on impulse, you see what's on the case and that's it. There are very brief details. It's not like they go into detail about every mode on the case. It's not even close to the same buying scenario but whatever makes you feel better.




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    Quote Originally Posted by PS4freak View Post
    Are you really comparing a shirt to a game? Lol A shirt is what you see is what you get. You pick up a game on impulse, you see what's on the case and that's it. There are very brief details. It's not like they go into detail about every mode on the case. It's not even close to the same buying scenario but whatever makes you feel better.
    Apparently, with video games you are supposed to know everything there is to know about it before you buy. After you buy, you have no right to complain about anything.

    Am I getting this right? Cuz this is about the stupidest stuff I've ever read on these forums.
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    So the gist of this is...

    -If you buy the game you have no right to complain.

    -If you didn't buy the game you have no right to complain because you haven't played it yet.

    The twilight zone is fascinating.

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    I didn't buy the game and damn it I do think it is a rip off. I also think Microsoft paid way to much money for good reviews on a game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Apparently, with video games you are supposed to know everything there is to know about it before you buy. After you buy, you have no right to complain about anything.

    Am I getting this right? Cuz this is about the stupidest stuff I've ever read on these forums.
    Correct from what I can tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    So the gist of this is...

    -If you buy the game you have no right to complain.

    -If you didn't buy the game you have no right to complain because you haven't played it yet.

    The twilight zone is fascinating.
    Also correct. Welcome...to...THE TWILIGHT ZONE! *Cue ominous music*




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    they way they present the game here looks pretty cool..for a second i thought this game had a SP mode and was massive lol i can totally be into this game if it were massive for sure.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    they way they present the game here looks pretty cool..for a second i thought this game had a SP mode and was massive lol i can totally be into this game if it were massive for sure.



    Still not seeing the value. I can go buy COD black ops for 20 bucks and have as much fun and I dont even play those games..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Apparently, with video games you are supposed to know everything there is to know about it before you buy. After you buy, you have no right to complain about anything.

    Am I getting this right? Cuz this is about the stupidest stuff I've ever read on these forums.
    lol and that's up against some pretty stiff competition!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    Still not seeing the value. I can go buy COD black ops for 20 bucks and have as much fun and I dont even play those games..
    but black ops is nothing like this game...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but black ops is nothing like this game...
    Other then giant robots whats the difference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    Other then giant robots whats the difference?
    blacks ops isn't even like MW. mostly it's reskinned but the gun play is extremely different.

    there's a lot of difference between TF and COD. for those that aren't into COD or these sort of games, will not see it because they don't play these games! TF is definitely less tactical than COD, in fact, i haven't seen much of anything tactical shooters have...so it's more like Halo than COD to me.

    i'd say it's a Halo game wrapped up into COD skin. sort of like a hybrid. it's definitely not identical to COD in gameplay, it "looks" like COD and it's "fast" like COD, that's where the similarities end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    blacks ops isn't even like MW. mostly it's reskinned but the gun play is extremely different.

    there's a lot of difference between TF and COD. for those that aren't into COD or these sort of games, will not see it because they don't play these games! TF is definitely less tactical than COD, in fact, i haven't seen much of anything tactical shooters have...so it's more like Halo than COD to me.

    i'd say it's a Halo game wrapped up into COD skin. sort of like a hybrid. it's definitely not identical to COD in gameplay, it "looks" like COD and it's "fast" like COD, that's where the similarities end.
    do you or do you not run around a map and shoot other players in things like death matches or capture the flag matches in both games? Do you not get xp points which you can spend upgrading your weapons in both games?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    do you or do you not run around a map and shoot other players in things like death matches or capture the flag matches in both games? Do you not get xp points which you can spend upgrading your weapons in both games?
    you can do the same in BF4, are you saying BF4 is like COD and TF?

    there's a lot more stuff going on in games like COD and BF. i wouldn't minimize their differences to say that they're the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you can do the same in BF4, are you saying BF4 is like COD and TF?

    there's a lot more stuff going on in games like COD and BF. i wouldn't minimize their differences to say that they're the same.
    Yes I am. I have always said so. They are like Madden games. each year you get a new onw that is really the same game with different maps... Now many people loves these games and that is fine but at least COD and BF gives you a almost sp .

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    Yes I am. I have always said so. They are like Madden games. each year you get a new onw that is really the same game with different maps... Now many people loves these games and that is fine but at least COD and BF gives you a almost sp .
    Last BF game came out in 2011. now i understand that they do come out with a lot of expansions but that still doesn't equate to a new game every year.

    COD and BF are an extremely different beast. it's like comparing soccer to american football. they both have balls, both have 11 players each side, both are played on a field, both have goals on the farthest opposite side of the rectangular field.

    i mean, really, i can also not know anything about football and american football and say they're the same things. but i wouldn't have any credibility doing it without a substantial statement.

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