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  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Last BF game came out in 2011. now i understand that they do come out with a lot of expansions but that still doesn't equate to a new game every year.

    COD and BF are an extremely different beast. it's like comparing soccer to american football. they both have balls, both have 11 players each side, both are played on a field, both have goals on the farthest opposite side of the rectangular field.

    i mean, really, i can also not know anything about football and american football and say they're the same things. but i wouldn't have any credibility doing it without a substantial statement.
    If you are happy with the same game over and over again thats fine but in my opinion it is not worth 60 bucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    If you are happy with the same game over and over again thats fine but in my opinion it is not worth 60 bucks.
    are you talking about TF? because i'm not. and it's not the same game over and over. COD does retain a lot of its assets but it does introduce new maps and new weapons, sometimes new perks, more balanced perks, and Black Ops 2 introduced a new inventory system where the customizations was off the roof and extremely balanced. better than any other shooter has ever done.

    and i don't buy these games at launch, only have bought BF3 and BF4 at launch (both at $40), i pay around $30-$35 for COD games and have skipped quite a few of them. not to mention i sold all of my COD games at $30 after using them for 3-6 months each time...so i barely lose much buying them. because they're so damn popular. the price stays at $30 for months.

    i don't know where the whole $60 came from...i'm only stating that TF is not like COD. it's similar or if there's a twitch-shooter sub-genre then it's in that sub-genre but it's not the same game. or i'd be excited about it because i like COD games.

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    are you talking about TF? because i'm not. and it's not the same game over and over. COD does retain a lot of its assets but it does introduce new maps and new weapons, sometimes new perks, more balanced perks, and Black Ops 2 introduced a new inventory system where the customizations was off the roof and extremely balanced. better than any other shooter has ever done.

    and i don't buy these games at launch, only have bought BF3 and BF4 at launch (both at $40), i pay around $30-$35 for COD games and have skipped quite a few of them. not to mention i sold all of my COD games at $30 after using them for 3-6 months each time...so i barely lose much buying them. because they're so damn popular. the price stays at $30 for months.

    i don't know where the whole $60 came from...i'm only stating that TF is not like COD. it's similar or if there's a twitch-shooter sub-genre then it's in that sub-genre but it's not the same game. or i'd be excited about it because i like COD games.
    I am talking about all of them. TF is just worse then the others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    I am talking about all of them. TF is just worse then the others.
    and you're making this judgement without playing any of the games you have mentioned. gotcha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    So the gist of this is...

    -If you buy the game you have no right to complain.

    -If you didn't buy the game you have no right to complain because you haven't played it yet.

    The twilight zone is fascinating.
    Exactly.

    This isn't what he intends, but it's ultimately what his opinions lead to. Which is why I've been saying he doesn't see the full picture (consequences) here. It creates a closed and strict system that doesn't match the way things actually work and disfavors us, the consumer.
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  7. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post


    This will be my new sig if inFamous gets a higher MC score.
    You can put that one back in the closet.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naxi View Post
    What's so offensive about an online-only game, as compared to a campaign only game? This isn't anything new. You probably get more bang for you buck from this. If the devs vision is an online-only game, then so be it. It's pointless tacking on a singleplayer.
    That's a fair point.

    That criticism mainly comes from expectations set by developers in the past; in the past we mostly got single-player (so it was considered a standard), then we moved towards single-player + multi-player -- people complained about single-player games getting multi-player.

    Now we have single-player and multi-player as a standard and now developers are introducing multi-player only games at the same price. You kind of have to expect this kind of reaction.

    In the past games that were multi-player only didn't cost $60 (as far as I can recall or probably weren't good ones to warrant this kind of attention), they cost $40 -- basically games with less content essentially cost less.

    Developers can still provide more content with a multi-player only game but that is on them. They need to change people's expectations.

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    There were not many multi player only games int he past on consoles, sure there are some but hardly a humongous catalogue is it.

  10. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and you're making this judgement without playing any of the games you have mentioned. gotcha.
    Yes. I don't have to eat $#@! to know it taste bad. This is my opinion and it is as valid as yours

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  11. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    It's a fallacy to think all opinions have equal reasoning and validity.
    When it comes to personal purchases of course they do.

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  12. #361
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    Try to understand I am not doging anyone's purchase of titan fall I am just expressing my opinion it is not worth 60 bucks and that Microsoft bought good reviews. How the $#@! can anything win 70 awards before it is released? Hell before the beta for many of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Exactly.

    This isn't what he intends, but it's ultimately what his opinions lead to. Which is why I've been saying he doesn't see the full picture (consequences) here. It creates a closed and strict system that doesn't match the way things actually work and disfavors us, the consumer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Apparently, with video games you are supposed to know everything there is to know about it before you buy. After you buy, you have no right to complain about anything.

    Am I getting this right? Cuz this is about the stupidest stuff I've ever read on these forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    I didn't buy the game and damn it I do think it is a rip off. I also think Microsoft paid way to much money for good reviews on a game.

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    @ Christopher, no one is debating that you are supposed to know everything about a product before buying it, what is being debated is that one should know enough of the material aspects before they make a purchase.

    The key aspects of what TF was, was the fact that it was an online based MP game, that had what is best described as patchwork Campaign.

    If you are a member in this site and class yourself as a hardcore gamer what excuse does there exist for not knowing this?

    Secondly, no one is arguing that you shouldnít complain about anything. If anything, the point of the debate is that people can complain about everything else but not the price or the content for which it is they paid for the product because it isnít really an impressive or intelligent debate to have.

    Why isnít it an intelligent debate to have?

    I have a sister that works in banking, I worked for an investment bank and now work for a medical research institution, my parents have owned a clothing store for the best part of two decades, I have a friend that owns a grocery and another that owns a small shop just next to it. I have worked all those, I know how they work inside and out, but more importantly, between 1997 and 2004/5 a friend's uncle opened a gaming establishment that had stations for gaming, but their core business was the sale of consoles, games and accessories while they also had console repairs on the side to boost revenues, and I worked there between 2000-2004, even when I was at the University, I would was working there any time that I got.

    There has been a debate/view put forward that publishers and developers should put content out that justifies a $60 price point. That is a statement that is far from the truth, and has no bearing on the reality of how the gaming market works, or business in general.

    I will argue and rather competently that any developer or publisher should put a product that costs less than that because that is what makes sense.
    1) All businesses are run on a single mindset, and that is to go and make a profit. Profits are only realized when you sell a product or service for more than it is worth, to someone that willingly pays for it. Willing buyer, willing seller.

    2) Developers and publishers always partner with retailers because they dont have the local or global infrastructure footprint to distribute their product, neither do a lot of other businesses. Every generation, the industry agrees on a suggested retail price and comes to an agreement with retailers on a price point that allows retailers the opportunity to make a profit that justifies their risk. EA, MS, Sony, Nintendo, Activision, Capcom, Namco, all of them sell their product to a retailer or through a service like Live, PSN, Steam and even in digital downloads, they never really get the full amount as there are transaction charges and royalties tied down by the platform holder or service provider, so why on earth would they be selling for $60?

    For the retailers, whatever they buy at the highest price point but cannot sell is inventory that they will look to make a loss on eventually to get any type of return on investment.

    It is a myth that a game, any game on any basis should be sold for $60, and no one has put a valid argument based on any fact to state otherwise..

    Now, I was told that I was putting way too much responsibility on the consumer, an unreasonable amount. When you go to a store and are investing in any product or service, it is really never worth what it is being sold for. A game is never really worth what it is sold for, so when you walk into a store and purchase one for any price, you have placed a vote of confidence and are simply stating that for this amount, the product delivers.

    I have been told I am making a biased simplification. I have seen business all around me ever since I was a kid. When I see a product or service, I something that is monetized for the sole benefit of making money to a retailer or manufacturer. I can tell you that there is absolutely nothing different from someone buying a T Shirt, Milk, groceries, office supplies, games. They are simple transactions where ownership of a product changes hands with an fair exchange of cash at what the consumer considers fair value, the product may be different, so too are the profit margins especially if you are looking at high end products like designer clothing, but they are all simple transactions.

    We used to buy Winning Eleven on the PS1, and Winning Eleven and Pro Evo Soccer on the PS2. In terms of content, it was never near what FIFA had, but we were paying for it at the highest pricing because we attached value to a better gaming experience.
    I got Halo 3 ODST which was sold and marketed as a standalone expansion to Halo 3. I knew that the Campaign was never going to have a huge amount of content, but the Multiplayer aspect, the amount of maps that they were offering made more sense to me. I have Halo reach which I got mostly for the Campaign.

    Sony made more money off the sale of GT5P than they had put into the development of GT5. At the time they were releasing the title I told friends and intimated the same hereon that as a business decision, Sony had the strategy absolutely spot on.

    People need to stop passing responsibility for their misinformed choices.

    Sufi is on record as saying that he should have done his research on BF4, Vulgotha is on record as saying that he bought on hype.
    They got burnt, EA didnt misrepresent any of those two games, if anything, what was being offered was laid bare before the product ever went to retail. When I was getting DOA2/3/4, Tekken 6, Forza, Forza 2/3/4 and eventually Forza 5, I knew what the games offered in terms of fighters, modes, cars tracks, total events. I knew the modes offered in Gears of War, an estimate of what the campaign lasted, maps, and splitscreen functionality...........that is something that I can say for every title that I have ever purchased.

    Secondly, a question was asked of Sufi what his complaint against TF was. He had none, but he had a complaint against EA's business practices. I made a simple point of asking if he had such a dislike of what they did, why on earth did his complaint not canvas other publishers?
    To that effect, I gave an example of myself and a stand I took on DLC.

    I asked why Vulgotha was even posting in this section. He has stated numerously that the Xbox One doesnt interest him, and he bought the game on PC. Surely were his complaints not better placed being posted in the PC section?

    As pertains reviews, we used to have a standard hereon that one could say anyone had paid for a review because
    1) There was no was no way they could prove their claim.
    2) It is a statement to the effect that reviewers are not competently doing what is required of them.

    How many people and how many times have you seen it stated on this forum topic that MS is paying for good reviews? It really isnt any different from what we saw early last generation when games were reviewed better on the 360 because they were better early on, not only the exclusives, but multiplatform games too.

    The standards hereon are dropping. I was similarly surprised at how much staff could also take rather simple statements and misrepresent what it is I had posted. We had a member called Ubermadness who was banned for this exact thing, I still have PM's from staff at the time asking me not to continue pointing out he was a bad egg, and that they were dealing with it.

    To Rapture, it is a closed system as how things work, you might think that someone is taking advantage of you, but really, isnt that what business tried to accomplish in the chase for profitability?

    @ Demi God, though I havent quoted you. You can buy a game, and you can complain about everything, just not price after you buy it. It is a counterproductive line of debate lacking in substance.

    I also dont see why anyone would be complaining about a game they have no intention of getting. I made a decision that I wouldnt get any console Nintendo were selling because I saw no value. It wasnt a complaint, just a statement, and you wont find me posting in the Nintendo section about how bad a product it is they have. I have never been a fan of PC gaming, you wont find me posting over there either.

    As I said, the people who have either replied to me never had a valid complaint to begin with, I am not even sure they understand how business works.
    xbox live: AcrylicAltair44

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  15. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by acryllicaltair View Post
    @ Christopher, no one is debating that you are supposed to know everything about a product before buying it, what is being debated is that one should know enough of the material aspects before they make a purchase.

    The key aspects of what TF was, was the fact that it was an online based MP game, that had what is best described as patchwork Campaign.

    If you are a member in this site and class yourself as a hardcore gamer what excuse does there exist for not knowing this?

    Secondly, no one is arguing that you shouldnít complain about anything. If anything, the point of the debate is that people can complain about everything else but not the price or the content for which it is they paid for the product because it isnít really an impressive or intelligent debate to have.

    Why isnít it an intelligent debate to have?

    I have a sister that works in banking, I worked for an investment bank and now work for a medical research institution, my parents have owned a clothing store for the best part of two decades, I have a friend that owns a grocery and another that owns a small shop just next to it. I have worked all those, I know how they work inside and out, but more importantly, between 1997 and 2004/5 a friend's uncle opened a gaming establishment that had stations for gaming, but their core business was the sale of consoles, games and accessories while they also had console repairs on the side to boost revenues, and I worked there between 2000-2004, even when I was at the University, I would was working there any time that I got.

    There has been a debate/view put forward that publishers and developers should put content out that justifies a $60 price point. That is a statement that is far from the truth, and has no bearing on the reality of how the gaming market works, or business in general.

    I will argue and rather competently that any developer or publisher should put a product that costs less than that because that is what makes sense.
    1) All businesses are run on a single mindset, and that is to go and make a profit. Profits are only realized when you sell a product or service for more than it is worth, to someone that willingly pays for it. Willing buyer, willing seller.

    2) Developers and publishers always partner with retailers because they dont have the local or global infrastructure footprint to distribute their product, neither do a lot of other businesses. Every generation, the industry agrees on a suggested retail price and comes to an agreement with retailers on a price point that allows retailers the opportunity to make a profit that justifies their risk. EA, MS, Sony, Nintendo, Activision, Capcom, Namco, all of them sell their product to a retailer or through a service like Live, PSN, Steam and even in digital downloads, they never really get the full amount as there are transaction charges and royalties tied down by the platform holder or service provider, so why on earth would they be selling for $60?

    For the retailers, whatever they buy at the highest price point but cannot sell is inventory that they will look to make a loss on eventually to get any type of return on investment.

    It is a myth that a game, any game on any basis should be sold for $60, and no one has put a valid argument based on any fact to state otherwise..

    Now, I was told that I was putting way too much responsibility on the consumer, an unreasonable amount. When you go to a store and are investing in any product or service, it is really never worth what it is being sold for. A game is never really worth what it is sold for, so when you walk into a store and purchase one for any price, you have placed a vote of confidence and are simply stating that for this amount, the product delivers.

    I have been told I am making a biased simplification. I have seen business all around me ever since I was a kid. When I see a product or service, I something that is monetized for the sole benefit of making money to a retailer or manufacturer. I can tell you that there is absolutely nothing different from someone buying a T Shirt, Milk, groceries, office supplies, games. They are simple transactions where ownership of a product changes hands with an fair exchange of cash at what the consumer considers fair value, the product may be different, so too are the profit margins especially if you are looking at high end products like designer clothing, but they are all simple transactions.

    We used to buy Winning Eleven on the PS1, and Winning Eleven and Pro Evo Soccer on the PS2. In terms of content, it was never near what FIFA had, but we were paying for it at the highest pricing because we attached value to a better gaming experience.
    I got Halo 3 ODST which was sold and marketed as a standalone expansion to Halo 3. I knew that the Campaign was never going to have a huge amount of content, but the Multiplayer aspect, the amount of maps that they were offering made more sense to me. I have Halo reach which I got mostly for the Campaign.

    Sony made more money off the sale of GT5P than they had put into the development of GT5. At the time they were releasing the title I told friends and intimated the same hereon that as a business decision, Sony had the strategy absolutely spot on.

    People need to stop passing responsibility for their misinformed choices.

    Sufi is on record as saying that he should have done his research on BF4, Vulgotha is on record as saying that he bought on hype.
    They got burnt, EA didnt misrepresent any of those two games, if anything, what was being offered was laid bare before the product ever went to retail. When I was getting DOA2/3/4, Tekken 6, Forza, Forza 2/3/4 and eventually Forza 5, I knew what the games offered in terms of fighters, modes, cars tracks, total events. I knew the modes offered in Gears of War, an estimate of what the campaign lasted, maps, and splitscreen functionality...........that is something that I can say for every title that I have ever purchased.

    Secondly, a question was asked of Sufi what his complaint against TF was. He had none, but he had a complaint against EA's business practices. I made a simple point of asking if he had such a dislike of what they did, why on earth did his complaint not canvas other publishers?
    To that effect, I gave an example of myself and a stand I took on DLC.

    I asked why Vulgotha was even posting in this section. He has stated numerously that the Xbox One doesnt interest him, and he bought the game on PC. Surely were his complaints not better placed being posted in the PC section?

    As pertains reviews, we used to have a standard hereon that one could say anyone had paid for a review because
    1) There was no was no way they could prove their claim.
    2) It is a statement to the effect that reviewers are not competently doing what is required of them.

    How many people and how many times have you seen it stated on this forum topic that MS is paying for good reviews? It really isnt any different from what we saw early last generation when games were reviewed better on the 360 because they were better early on, not only the exclusives, but multiplatform games too.

    The standards hereon are dropping. I was similarly surprised at how much staff could also take rather simple statements and misrepresent what it is I had posted. We had a member called Ubermadness who was banned for this exact thing, I still have PM's from staff at the time asking me not to continue pointing out he was a bad egg, and that they were dealing with it.

    To Rapture, it is a closed system as how things work, you might think that someone is taking advantage of you, but really, isnt that what business tried to accomplish in the chase for profitability?

    @ Demi God, though I havent quoted you. You can buy a game, and you can complain about everything, just not price after you buy it. It is a counterproductive line of debate lacking in substance.

    I also dont see why anyone would be complaining about a game they have no intention of getting. I made a decision that I wouldnt get any console Nintendo were selling because I saw no value. It wasnt a complaint, just a statement, and you wont find me posting in the Nintendo section about how bad a product it is they have. I have never been a fan of PC gaming, you wont find me posting over there either.

    As I said, the people who have either replied to me never had a valid complaint to begin with, I am not even sure they understand how business works.
    Bull if I buy a game and I feel it wasn't worth what I paid I damn sure will tell others so they dont make the same mistake.

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  16. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by acryllicaltair View Post
    @ Christopher, no one is debating that you are supposed to know everything about a product before buying it, what is being debated is that one should know enough of the material aspects before they make a purchase.

    The key aspects of what TF was, was the fact that it was an online based MP game, that had what is best described as patchwork Campaign.

    If you are a member in this site and class yourself as a hardcore gamer what excuse does there exist for not knowing this?
    Not everyone crawls over gaming sites like folks on this board. A lot of people just saw a Titanfall commercial and said "oh....that looks cool". There a variety of reasons why people make purchases and there a variety of reasons why they are not happy with their choice to do so. They paid the price and that gives them them the right to critique, $#@!, complain about whatever they want. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with people saying "I'm not buying Titanfall because <insert reason>". Sorry you don't like it, but that is the way it is.

    Secondly, no one is arguing that you shouldn’t complain about anything. If anything, the point of the debate is that people can complain about everything else but not the price or the content for which it is they paid for the product because it isn’t really an impressive or intelligent debate to have.
    lol.....of course they can complain! Hell, you talk about being informed, but part of being informed is reading reviews from other consumers. If I post on amazon or on a forum that Titanfall wasn't worth $60 because it doesn't have enough content then someone else might be a little wiser. Word of mouth is a powerful aspect of buying products and you are saying everyone should just shut up about content if they paid for it. Why? Does that help other consumers? Does that help Respawn make a better game on the next go? Hell no. This entire line of thought is utterly ridiculous.

    I also dont see why anyone would be complaining about a game they have no intention of getting. I made a decision that I wouldnt get any console Nintendo were selling because I saw no value. It wasnt a complaint, just a statement, and you wont find me posting in the Nintendo section about how bad a product it is they have. I have never been a fan of PC gaming, you wont find me posting over there either.
    Great. That is your choice. This is a gaming forum. If I want to go to the Nintendo forum and say I'm not buying a Wii U and here is why......yeah, I can do that. Just like people have done in the Xbox and Playstation forums for years. No idea what any of this has to do with the subject at hand.

    As I said, the people who have either replied to me never had a valid complaint to begin with, I am not even sure they understand how business works.
    What does an understanding of "business" have to do with game criticism? Say the responses aren't valid a hundred times if you wish, doesn't make that a true statement.
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  17. #365
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    This guy acryllicaltair speaking that truth.

    Having worked retail, in electronics no less, uniformed people are idiots. All this money they would spend and not know not a thing about the product. Amusingly pathetic. I could tell these people anything and they would be none the wiser. No respect for these types.

    When someone says it's not worth the price, the only thing I'm thinking if they actually bought the product is, why are you happily displaying your ignorance.

    The worlds information is always at our finger tips. There is no excuse for ignorant people especially when it comes to something as simple as a video game.
    especially if you can read
    especially since there are previews of said game before it's released.
    especially since there are reviews of said game before it's released.
    especially since there are guys on youtube who do walkthroughs of said game for a living on the day they are released.
    especially since there are guys on twitch streaming the game live.

    But people want to complain about the price they bought the game at because they feel it's not worth the price. Admitting to their ignorance. It's amusing.

    Titanfall is a good game. No one can take that away from it.
    Last edited by TrUe GaMeR; 03-21-2014 at 17:52.

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    I bought BF4 earlier this month and It does not work on my computer, for some reason it crashes with a direct X error every time I play online. Do I think it is worth the £15 I paid for it? No, I do not, but I would feel a damned sight more ripped off if I paid £40 that EA wants for it.

    Worthiness is different for many people its based on your opinion of the game and other aspects.
    Last edited by keefy; 03-21-2014 at 17:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrUe GaMeR View Post
    When someone says it's not worth the price, the only thing I'm thinking if they actually bought the product is, why are you happily displaying your ignorance.
    Labeling buyer's remorse as ignorance so you can say, "We can't abide by ignorance," is an intentional twist of the counter-arguments made, operating as word play to make them easier to pull down. You're also using black and white scenarios to create a point while ignoring the variability of the system at play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrUe GaMeR View Post
    This guy acryllicaltair speaking that truth.

    Having worked retail, in electronics no less, uniformed people are idiots. All this money they would spend and not know not a thing about the product. Amusingly pathetic. I could tell these people anything and they would be none the wiser. No respect for these types.

    When someone says it's not worth the price, the only thing I'm thinking if they actually bought the product is, why are you happily displaying your ignorance.

    The worlds information is always at our finger tips. There is no excuse for ignorant people especially when it comes to something as simple as a video game.
    especially if you can read
    especially since there are previews of said game before it's released.
    especially since there are reviews of said game before it's released.
    especially since there are guys on youtube who do walkthroughs of said game for a living on the day they are released.
    especially since there are guys on twitch streaming the game live.

    But people want to complain about the price they bought the game at because they feel it's not worth the price. Admitting to their ignorance. It's amusing.

    Titanfall is a good game. No one can take that away from it.
    First of all, I find people working in electronic uninformed and are idiots. I ask them technical questions and they never really know the answer.

    Secondly, your argument only works if the company is straight forward and doesnt try to distort truth.

    MS secretly pays people to leave positive opinion, suppressing anything negative at the same time and try to flood the information out there.

    How about then? Are people stupid for not knowing that some people are getting paid behind their back?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    First of all, I find people working in electronic uninformed and are idiots. I ask them technical questions and they never really know the answer.

    Secondly, your argument only works if the company is straight forward and doesnt try to distort truth.

    MS secretly pays people to leave positive opinion, suppressing anything negative at the same time and try to flood the information out there.

    How about then? Are people stupid for not knowing that some people are getting paid behind their back?
    Which this game made obvious with a lack of objective reviews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    Which this game made obvious with a lack of objective reviews.

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    No one said there weren't objective reviews. All I am saying is the online research/views were influenced and that you cannot put 100 percent blame on consumers when perfect information is not available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    No one said there weren't objective reviews. All I am saying is the online research/views were influenced and that you cannot put 100 percent blame on consumers when perfect information is not available.
    There were very few objective reviews. I am going to call it as I see it and it smells to me like money is what talks to many reviewers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    There were very few objective reviews. I am going to call it as I see it and it smells to me like money is what talks to many reviewers.

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    I do not think big websites are like that. I was more of referring to low level reviewers like on youtube who still hits few hundred thousands to million views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    I do not think big websites are like that. I was more of referring to low level reviewers like on youtube who still hits few hundred thousands to million views.
    This is why player reviews are better

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    I agree with one thing, there is nothing wrong with an online only game selling for $60. If you want to talk quality of the game, that's fine. There are a lot of games out there that aren't worth $60 with both an SP and MP component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    Yes. I don't have to eat $#@! to know it taste bad. This is my opinion and it is as valid as yours

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    if you mean, valid as in as credible? no, it isn't as valid as mine.

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