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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Reducing debt is very simple. Increase revenue, cut spending, or both. Our entitlement system is not an "investment" that is going to return money to the government. Never has. One could argue that it is the right thing to do to protect those who can't afford health care. I'm not going to debate that either way but the underlying cause (health care costs) of the "mess" isn't being addressed by Republicans or Democrats.
    You know why it wasn't addressed? Because the republicans watered down the original health care proposal by Obama.

    I hate you call them entitlements. I don't see it that way. I see food stamps as aid that helps a college student make it through college so they CAN work and become a productive citizen.

    Spending/investing to get out of debt only works if the interest received for the investment is greater than the interest paid on the debt. Our government isn't doing that. It is just flooding the population with money to cover up the root of the problem and kicking the can to the next generation.
    Obama passed a stimilus a long time ago, and states like California and New York are using it. They are creating jobs. The more U.S. jobs = the less U.S. debt.

    Southern states like Mississippi run by Republicans are not using the stimilus correctly. If the stimilus were used correctly and effectively in all states, unemployment rates would be even lower.

    Is jobs not the root or part of the root of the problem? Please correct me if I am wrong and please feel free to post links.

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you do realize that obamacare is just going to help the rich and not the poor right? it's another form of oppressing your population through gathering personal information that may be used to make more money for the rich. the smaller picture is that it's going to help "some" poor...the bigger picture is that it's going to give the big wigs more control over the population. the same you detest.
    Can you show me how? Because what I am seeing is affordable health insurance for people and it seems to be taking the power away from the rich health industry.

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    No. They really aren't. Before you say something to this effect again, I want you to do a search for the voting records of all 525 members of congress, our president and the rest of his administration. You'd be surprised at just how similar they all really are.

    On the topic of spending, you don't spend to get out of debt. What you do is either you reduce spending or you raise revenue. Since this nation actually has some of the highest tax rates on income in the world, both personal and corporate wise, it isn't so much about a lack of revenue. What should be done is an across-the-board cut to spending. This includes military spending and cuts to social programs.
    I agree about cuts to the military, but only a few cuts to social programs. No, I haven't done a ton of research, but I believe part of the problem with social programs is fraud. I just saw on The Daily Show that 3 billion dollars are lost in fraud on food stamps. We need social programs, the poor need them. There are people out there that legitimately need food stamps and social security and head start.

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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    "Illusion of a choice" is not what I read and learned about in my American Government class. Of course Americans have a choice, that sounds like a conspiracy theory.

    Here's the deal:

    Far to the right republicans want this and that, moderate and somewhat liberal republicans want certain things, moderate and conservative democrats want things, and then far to the left dems have their own agendas. So really, you can't separate it just Republicans and Democrats. It also seems like when there is a good amount of compromise on both parties that the country is its best.

    Presidents like Obama are so far to the left that Republicans refuse to compromise much at all.

    As for broken promises, each president has his reasons for not delivering. Obama's reasons are plain as day: the Republicans block a lot of his proposals.

    Yes, he did have the senate and house, but wanted to work with the Republicans. I betcha if the Dems get the house this year, he won't make that same mistake twice.
    You believe the lies you were fed, with time you'll grow out of them.

    The two parties are far closer in practice than what you are lead to believe. The individuals underneath each camp are, of course, different and struggle for their own goals.

    But the underlying, unifying, theme here is power. What is in their best interests, and not the country or the people.Politicians rarely take a 'stand' on issues if it entails them losing power. They fight for whatever stands to gain them greater prestige and popularity, not for what is right. This is not conspiracy, this is fact.

    So no, I am afraid that you are very much wrong. What you learn in class as opposed to the real world are often very different things.

    Our country is at its best when both parties stand to have their throats slit, and these self gratifying power politics are put on hold due to the threat of mutual annihilation by outside forces. The American people have this power, but they're too busy slothing about in a stupor of lies and ignorance to really do anything.

    They want to believe they're making a difference whenever they go to the ballot box and tick the box with an (R) or (D) next to it.. So that they may then have the right to complain and lambast "them" for all the country's problems. After all, they did their part didn't they?

    As for Obama- the man is a thrall to the people who paid to have him elected, and those whom he brokered deals with. He is also a slave to the realities of the position, so even if he went in bright eyed and idealistic he has been subjugated. There are many cogs to the great machine of American government, and not even a president can hope to enact change if he wants to come out unscathed.

    Your faith in him, and your party, is a weakness. Not a strength.


    As for cuts: I believe the military and social programs should be savaged. We are hemorrhaging money and putting our future at risk with short, myopic & politically motivated, thinking.

    Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why it is that medical care is so expensive in this country? Have you ever looked into the issue? Truly? What you find when you dig deeper is that, contrary to popular opinion, the government is not the solution we really need to 'fix' the problem.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 03-28-2014 at 15:01.


  5. #30
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    There is a lot of fraud, which is one of problems among some others. Fraud is a big one though.

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  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    There is a lot of fraud, which is one of problems among some others. Fraud is a big one though.
    Exactly!

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    Black Wolf, why is college so expensive? You're not looking at the real problems, you do not see them.

    Why is education so horribly expensive now vs in the past? Why are "food stamps" now 'necessary' so that students can get their education and still eat?

    That doesn't scream of something horribly wrong to you?

    What you are supporting are band aid solutions that will only continue to wreck our country.


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  10. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post

    As for cuts: I believe the military and social programs should be savaged. We are hemorrhaging money and putting our future at risk with short, myopic & politically motivated, thinking.

    Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why it is that medical care is so expensive in this country? Have you ever looked into the issue? Truly? What you find when you dig deeper is that, contrary to popular opinion, the government is not the solution we really need to 'fix' the problem.
    I know you are still editting this post, but I agree with the first part of this quote. We do need to salvage and improve social programs.

    As for medical expenses, I have not done a whole bunch of research but I have watched a movie called "Sicko" and wrote a paper arguing for Universal Health Care.

    Although the issue can be fixed in many different ways, the government is actually a solution. It's just like Demi said in one of the posts in this thread. The prices are ridicolous. Doctors and hospitals are over charging and putting the money in their pockets. Had the health care reform bill passed fully, there would be competition among companies and lower prices. Lower prices is a good thing and another thing the government could do is set a standard for prices.

    For example, lets say at hospital B an X ray is $2000 but at Hospital A it's $3000. What the government could do is what they probably do in Europe, which is X rays are so and so across the board. That's why, according to Sicko, doctors in Europe have a set salary and it should be that way. I hope that makes sense.

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  11. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Black Wolf, why is college so expensive? You're not looking at the real problems, you do not see them.

    Why is education so horribly expensive now vs in the past? Why are "food stamps" now 'necessary' so that students can get their education and still eat?

    That doesn't scream of something horribly wrong to you?

    What you are supporting are band aid solutions that will only continue to wreck our country.
    I do not know why costs are increasing. I do see the rich raising the prices, but I'd have to do research to be sure it's ONLY the rich getting richer.

    Yes, it is terrible and food stamps are necessary because the minimum wage is so low. People can't even afford to buy grocery. Raise the minimum wage! That's one reason why food is so high, another is because we are importing foods. We need to buy local.

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  12. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I know you are still editting this post, but I agree with the first part of this quote. We do need to salvage and improve social programs.

    As for medical expenses, I have not done a whole bunch of research but I have watched a movie called "Sicko" and wrote a paper arguing for Universal Health Care.

    Although the issue can be fixed in many different ways, the government is actually a solution. It's just like Demi said in one of the posts in this thread. The prices are ridicolous. Doctors and hospitals are over charging and putting the money in their pockets. Had the health care reform bill passed fully, there would be competition among companies and lower prices. Lower prices is a good thing and another thing the government could do is set a standard for prices.

    For example, lets say at hospital B an X ray is $2000 but at Hospital A it's $3000. What the government could do is what they probably do in Europe, which is X rays are so and so across the board. That's why, according to Sicko, doctors in Europe have a set salary and it should be that way. I hope that makes sense.
    The government is complicit in price fixing (Medicare\Medicaid). There's also the issue of all the malpractice lawsuits and "get rich quick by suing" schemes our courts allow.. As for the rate of pay for the professionals themselves, do you realize how much debt they accrue by going to medical school?

    The costs are outrageous.

    And why is that? Well apparently because we subsidize the ever loving $#@! out of education, colleges therefore charge more because they know the taxpayer foots the bill.

    Colleges that do not accept taxpayer dollars have tuition rates roughly HALF of those that do accept it.

    One thing to note is that US colleges that don’t accept Federal loans have tuition roughly half of their similarly-ranked peers. The Minerva Project, a disruptive for-profit university out of Silicon Valley, has stated that it will refuse Federal aid in order to keep costs low.
    Are you beginning to see a trend here Wolf?

    The reasoning that "Well, government can get us out of this" when they are a prime reason we're here in the first place is.. Maddening. I mean, they cannot lose with this kind of mentality can they? Even when the lion's share of the blame is heaped at their door step the very first reaction by people is not to demand the 'fix it' by stepping out, but to involve themselves more.

    Everything is so artificially inflated it is mind numbing.

    You want to really help people? Cut the government down and keep their involvement to the barebones, common sense, essentials.

    Remove these education subsidies. Remove medicare\medicaid. Cut apart military spending, reform the tax code (read: destroy it), downsize all the three letter agencies and flat out remove the BATFE and NSA.

    You'll see medical and education costs plummet, more consumer spending, identical or greater revenue streams..

    I mean really, to me, the best thing ever would be a neutered federal government and more powerful state\local governments. As how it was originally architected to be.

    Sources: http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixo...costs-so-high/

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/pascalem...-dead-obvious/
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 03-28-2014 at 15:26.


  13. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    You know why it wasn't addressed? Because the republicans watered down the original health care proposal by Obama.
    I never saw anything from obamacare that actually dealt with costs. Would be great if you could show me.


    I hate you call them entitlements. I don't see it that way. I see food stamps as aid that helps a college student make it through college so they CAN work and become a productive citizen.
    That isn't my term. It is a standard word for benefits provided by the government.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement


    Obama passed a stimilus a long time ago, and states like California and New York are using it. They are creating jobs. The more U.S. jobs = the less U.S. debt.

    Southern states like Mississippi run by Republicans are not using the stimilus correctly. If the stimilus were used correctly and effectively in all states, unemployment rates would be even lower.

    Is jobs not the root or part of the root of the problem? Please correct me if I am wrong and please feel free to post links.
    Stimulus packages are political crap. They have never made a difference other than the administration at the time being able to say they were responsible for the recovery (which Obama could not claim at all). This has been true of Republican administrations as well as Democrats.
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  14. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    The government is complicit in price fixing (Medicare\Medicaid). There's also the issue of all the malpractice lawsuits and "get rich quick by suing" schemes our courts allow.. As for the rate of pay for the professionals themselves, do you realize how much debt they accrue by going to medical school?

    The costs are outrageous.
    Okay, so let's say a med or vet student racks up over $150,000 of debt total. Even in Europe they make good money and if you pay more than minimum payments, you can get out of that debt sooner than 10-15 years.

    And why is that? Well apparently because we subsidize the ever loving $#@! out of education, colleges therefore charge more because they know the taxpayer foots the bill.

    Colleges that do not accept taxpayer dollars have tuition rates roughly HALF of those that do accept it.
    But that's for people who can afford to pay for college out of their pockets. Getting federal loans is for people who need the loans and yes, it will cost more in the long run but that's how it is with loans.

    As for colleges raising the tuition and fees, do you think that's right? That's not right and that's an example of the rich abusing the system.

    Are you beginning to see a trend here Wolf?

    The reasoning that "Well, government can get us out of this" when they are a prime reason we're here in the first place is.. Maddening. I mean, they cannot lose with this kind of mentality can they? Even when the lion's share of the blame is heaped at their door step the very first reaction by people is not to demand the 'fix it' by stepping out, but to involve themselves more.
    The government is NOT the reason we are in debt and unemployment rates are high. This country is in bad shape because we would rather pay for cheap labor than pay American workers and that's the rich doing that, not the government.

    People are robbing the system and a lot of the people robbing the system are rich or Republicans.

    Everything is so artificially inflated it is mind numbing.

    You want to really help people? Cut the government down and keep their involvement to the barebones, common sense, essentials.

    Remove these education subsidies. Remove medicare\medicaid. Cut apart military spending, reform the tax code (read: destroy it), downsize all the three letter agencies and flat out remove the BATFE and NSA.

    You'll see medical and education costs plummet, more consumer spending, identical or greater revenue streams..

    I mean really, to me, the best thing ever would be a neutered federal government and more powerful state\local governments. As how it was originally architected to be.

    Sources: http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixo...costs-so-high/

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/pascalem...-dead-obvious/
    No, I fully disagree. We NEED all the things you want to cut, I need them and there are people out there who have a good reason to need them.

    We need medicaid, I need medicaid. My grandmother needs medicaid medicare. We need education subsidies.

    We definitely need taxes and the rich need to be taxed MORE. They make more and should be paying taxes.

    What about people like me? What about people who have a physical and mental disability? When you cut social programs, you cut their support. I draw from social security and use food stamps and it helps me stay ahead as I go to college to become productive.

    Stop looking at the minority and look at the majority of the people using these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I never saw anything from obamacare that actually dealt with costs. Would be great if you could show me.



    That isn't my term. It is a standard word for benefits provided by the government.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement




    Stimulus packages are political crap. They have never made a difference other than the administration at the time being able to say they were responsible for the recovery (which Obama could not claim at all). This has been true of Republican administrations as well as Democrats.
    I can't find it. I remember reading about it writing a paper and I found the source via a database. Romney had a similar system and the source mentioned some things.

    That's some bull crap about Obama and his stimilus package. It's because of his package and hard work that unemployment is steady dropping and this country is adding jobs.

    Obama is doing good on the economy and would be doing better had the Republicans tried to work with him instead of blocking everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Okay, so let's say a med or vet student racks up over $150,000 of debt total. Even in Europe they make good money and if you pay more than minimum payments, you can get out of that debt sooner than 10-15 years.



    But that's for people who can afford to pay for college out of their pockets. Getting federal loans is for people who need the loans and yes, it will cost more in the long run but that's how it is with loans.

    As for colleges raising the tuition and fees, do you think that's right? That's not right and that's an example of the rich abusing the system.



    The government is NOT the reason we are in debt and unemployment rates are high. This country is in bad shape because we would rather pay for cheap labor than pay American workers and that's the rich doing that, not the government.

    People are robbing the system and a lot of the people robbing the system are rich or Republicans.



    No, I fully disagree. We NEED all the things you want to cut, I need them and there are people out there who have a good reason to need them.

    We need medicaid, I need medicaid. My grandmother needs medicaid medicare. We need education subsidies.

    We definitely need taxes and the rich need to be taxed MORE. They make more and should be paying taxes.

    What about people like me? What about people who have a physical and mental disability? When you cut social programs, you cut their support. I draw from social security and use food stamps and it helps me stay ahead as I go to college to become productive.

    Stop looking at the minority and look at the majority of the people using these things.
    The government is thoroughly involved in all of the 'injustices' you're raging about, they've had an enormous hand in creating all of them. You essentially plugged your ears and went 'lalala' when I pointed out the education predicament and all the BS surrounding it because of government involvement.

    You really think this is about "The Republicans"? Do you actually know why we are in a recession? What lead to 2008?

    What you're going to have to square with Wolf, is that the rich in this country can't really do anything unless they have a sympathetic bureaucrat who can help push their agenda (for a fee or favors). This is called crony capitalism. This is a government issue, because they should be ABOVE this type of behavior.

    They exist to protect the people, not advance their own interests.

    Sure, the rich and the powerful do terrible things. But they're private sector scrooges, they are not the ones who rule this nation on paper. Also, we can only 'punish' them for breaking crimes if our government actually is willing to do it- and they've demonstrated repeatedly that they haven't.

    You do realize that you can't just 'raise taxes' on the rich right? It doesn't work that way, right? Majority of their income isn't in taxable wages, and they store alot of their cash overseas or in different types of investments.. etc.

    I think you're just too emotionally invested in this and you're not willing to look at the inconvenient truths at play here.

    And no, I'd still cut apart Medicare and Medicaid, because they're part of the problem. They're an enormous part of why medical costs (and thus, in part, insurance costs) are so damn high. But nobody wants to make the tough choices, they keep looking for shortcuts and easy ways out.

    There is no easy way out Wolf.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 03-28-2014 at 23:06.


  17. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    They NEED it, the country needs it. If YOU do not have health insurance of any kind, YOU need it or you're one accident away from dying in the hospital.
    Yes, everyone should have healthcare, but why should I be forced to use it if government officials don't have to? They'll have healthcare, but it isn't apart of the Obamacare package. What's wrong with the Obama package that congress signed into law that they didn't have to use it? That's where I have my issue.

    Something is $#@!ed up that they don't even want to use it. Some people like to live on the edge. Not everyone wants to "Buy-in" to the healthcare program. Some never have needed it. You shouldn't be forced to pay for something you don't want. Some people don't want it. Shouldn't have to have it. Simple.

    At the end of the day, no matter how you wanna slice it to make you feel better, the Obama care is a legal ponzi scheme and one more way for the government to gain total control of your livelihood. The Chips are next.


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I agree about cuts to the military, but only a few cuts to social programs. No, I haven't done a ton of research, but I believe part of the problem with social programs is fraud. I just saw on The Daily Show that 3 billion dollars are lost in fraud on food stamps. We need social programs, the poor need them. There are people out there that legitimately need food stamps and social security and head start.
    Whatever cuts we propose to the military, an equal or greater amount must be cut from social programs as well. In fact, there is a little something I would like you to look at. It was one of Ron Paul's proposed budgets. I know he will never run again but I think there is something in this budget which I think you and I both will agree upon.

    http://c3244172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/...mericaPlan.pdf

    I highly recommend you take the time to read that pdf I linked you to.

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    Downsize military and defense spending. Make education cheaper, give us social healthcare. Force a minimum wage so we can raise up the poor and preserve the middle (spending) class. Close tax loopholes for companies. Stop giving billions in subsidies to companies that already make billions in profit a year. Stop giving out defense contracts for defense projects that go absolutely nowhere. Hold corporations accountable for their actions. Yada-yada.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    There is no easy way out Wolf.
    The solutions are simple and readily available. America doesn't want to admit it's been wrong this entire time, or make the effort for greater change. Blaming each other and applying short-term fixes is easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Downsize military and defense spending. Make education cheaper, give us social healthcare. Force a minimum wage so we can raise up the poor and preserve the middle (spending) class. Close tax loopholes for companies. Stop giving billions in subsidies to companies that already make billions in profit a year. Stop giving out defense contracts for defense projects that go absolutely nowhere. Hold corporations accountable for their actions. Yada-yada.



    The solutions are simple and readily available. America doesn't want to admit it's been wrong this entire time, or make the effort for greater change. Blaming each other and applying short-term fixes is easier.
    Isnt that what I said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Isnt that what I said?

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    The first or second part of my post? I'm assuming you mean the former, as the latter looks like a direct contradiction of what you were saying. Sorry if I repeated anything in the thread. I was skimming.

    One thing I did pick up on, that you said earlier, was the way colleges handle money. It's disgusting how much over-spending there is at the colleges where I live. The university I attend is always ripping up the sidewalks and walkways to lay new concrete, planting new lanes of vegetation, repainting rooms that were only painted 4 months earlier, buying new furniture every year or two for the whole campus, etc. The spent 100,000$ remodeling the plaza near the main hall for this amphitheater setup. Two years later they're planning on remodeling it again. There's a fancy business building they built a year ago that cost a few million.

    Yet there are people starving and freezing on the streets. Single mothers and fathers working two or three jobs to feed their kids, never having the free time to actually be a parent or to enjoy their own lives. :/
    Last edited by Nerevar; 03-29-2014 at 04:13.
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    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    The first or second part of my post? I'm assuming you mean the former, as the latter looks like a direct contradiction of what you were saying. Sorry if I repeated anything in the thread. I was skimming.

    One thing I did pick up on, that you said earlier, was the way colleges handle money. It's disgusting how much over-spending there is at at the colleges where live. The university I attend is always ripping up the sidewalks and walkways to lay new concrete, planting new lanes of vegetation, repainting rooms that were only painted 4 months earlier, buying new furniture every year or two for the whole campus, etc. The spent 100,000$ remodeling the plaza near the main hall for this amphitheater setup. Two years later they're planning on remodeling it again. There's a fancy business building they built a year ago that cost a few million.

    Yet there are people starving and freezing on the streets. Single mothers and fathers working two or three jobs to feed their kids, never having the free time to actually be a parent or to enjoy their own lives. :/
    Refusing to face the ugly truth is synonymous with a a choice being "hard" or "difficult". What I was saying to Wolf was exactly what you were saying.

    I never said that many of the solutions were not straight forward.

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    Yeah, fair enough. I read it as if you were saying the superior solutions were, in themselves, more difficult to work out and apply, and that we should stop using easier, inadequate solutions. Though I was mostly stemming from your post, not necessarily trying to correct you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Whatever cuts we propose to the military, an equal or greater amount must be cut from social programs as well. In fact, there is a little something I would like you to look at. It was one of Ron Paul's proposed budgets. I know he will never run again but I think there is something in this budget which I think you and I both will agree upon.

    http://c3244172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/...mericaPlan.pdf

    I highly recommend you take the time to read that pdf I linked you to.
    Okay, I took the time to read it and I am glad he did not become president. There is too much I disagree with, like getting rid of the Department of Energy and repealing "Obama care".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    The government is thoroughly involved in all of the 'injustices' you're raging about, they've had an enormous hand in creating all of them. You essentially plugged your ears and went 'lalala' when I pointed out the education predicament and all the BS surrounding it because of government involvement.
    And you plugged your ears when I asked was it right for universities to increase tuition and fees just because the government helps with loans.

    You really think this is about "The Republicans"? Do you actually know why we are in a recession? What lead to 2008?

    What you're going to have to square with Wolf, is that the rich in this country can't really do anything unless they have a sympathetic bureaucrat who can help push their agenda (for a fee or favors). This is called crony capitalism. This is a government issue, because they should be ABOVE this type of behavior.
    It's not the democrats that are helping the rich push their agenda, it's the Republicans!

    They exist to protect the people, not advance their own interests.

    Sure, the rich and the powerful do terrible things. But they're private sector scrooges, they are not the ones who rule this nation on paper. Also, we can only 'punish' them for breaking crimes if our government actually is willing to do it- and they've demonstrated repeatedly that they haven't.

    You do realize that you can't just 'raise taxes' on the rich right? It doesn't work that way, right? Majority of their income isn't in taxable wages, and they store alot of their cash overseas or in different types of investments.. etc.
    And that's the problem. They need to be taxed instead of the middle class. They store their cash overseas to avoid taxes.

    I don't care what you say, the rich and powerful DO rule this nation. They have a great hand in what laws are passed and who gets tax breaks.

    I think you're just too emotionally invested in this and you're not willing to look at the inconvenient truths at play here.

    And no, I'd still cut apart Medicare and Medicaid, because they're part of the problem. They're an enormous part of why medical costs (and thus, in part, insurance costs) are so damn high. But nobody wants to make the tough choices, they keep looking for shortcuts and easy ways out.

    There is no easy way out Wolf.
    So basically, you're saying universities and hospitals have the right to raise prices because of the government's help? That's not right and that's the problem. If the prices were normal with government help, things would be much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by $Greatness$ View Post
    Yes, everyone should have healthcare, but why should I be forced to use it if government officials don't have to? They'll have healthcare, but it isn't apart of the Obamacare package. What's wrong with the Obama package that congress signed into law that they didn't have to use it? That's where I have my issue.

    Something is $#@!ed up that they don't even want to use it. Some people like to live on the edge. Not everyone wants to "Buy-in" to the healthcare program. Some never have needed it. You shouldn't be forced to pay for something you don't want. Some people don't want it. Shouldn't have to have it. Simple.

    At the end of the day, no matter how you wanna slice it to make you feel better, the Obama care is a legal ponzi scheme and one more way for the government to gain total control of your livelihood. The Chips are next.
    You are free to your opinion. If you're okay with paying your medical costs out of pocket, then you're either well off or you hate being required to have car insurance too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    You are free to your opinion. If you're okay with paying your medical costs out of pocket, then you're either well off or you hate being required to have car insurance too.
    Here's the difference though. If you don't have your health insurance, you pay a fine. so far 6 out of 10 people still don't have health insurance and they already showed this cost for this year is $95 for adults and like $50 or $60 per child. Next year it's going to jump up to $300 per adult and a bit over $100 to $150 per child, the next year it will jump up to something like $900 per adult with $600 per child or more.

    What you are supporting now is something that is forced and from the looks of it, it can really screw things up and make the poor even more poor. you are supporting something with a horrible cost of really punishing poor people to the point they won't ever get out of the $#@!.
    Last edited by Demi_God; 03-29-2014 at 16:02.

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