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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    And you plugged your ears when I asked was it right for universities to increase tuition and fees just because the government helps with loans.



    It's not the democrats that are helping the rich push their agenda, it's the Republicans!



    And that's the problem. They need to be taxed instead of the middle class. They store their cash overseas to avoid taxes.

    I don't care what you say, the rich and powerful DO rule this nation. They have a great hand in what laws are passed and who gets tax breaks.



    So basically, you're saying universities and hospitals have the right to raise prices because of the government's help? That's not right and that's the problem. If the prices were normal with government help, things would be much better.
    I didnt plug my ears.I just dont really take that question seriously.

    If tuition prices are massively inflated because of government subsidizing it, and universities which dont take federal loans are 50% cheaper, it obvious that the solution is cutting government subsidies. Not really a mind bender there.

    Further, do you know how federal student loans work? How it all plays out due to law and interest rates? Go look it up. Its horrifying. Its one of the most screwed up kinds of loans you can do.

    And we force most students to take it.

    I cannot believe how partisan youre being about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Okay, I took the time to read it and I am glad he did not become president. There is too much I disagree with, like getting rid of the Department of Energy and repealing "Obama care".
    You act like getting rid of the Department of Energy and repealing Obamacare is a bad thing. Both of those things are not constitutionally mandated. Did you know that the Department of Energy has responsibility of our nuclear waste stockpiles? Dafuq does the Department of Energy need sole discretion for the nuclear waste for? As for Obamacare, you'd see that funding for medicare and medicaid doesn't get axed. Obamacare, which was drawn up by the health insurance industry, (for those of you that don't know better) is not a money saver. It is guaranteed marketshare for the insurance industry and that is all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    You are free to your opinion. If you're okay with paying your medical costs out of pocket, then you're either well off or you hate being required to have car insurance too.
    Side comment. It's interesting how car insurance premiums for young men are based on risk i.e. they pay more as higher risk.

    Yet with Obamacare (life insurance) they pay a disproportionally high cost when they're statistically some of the lowest risk.

    Doesn't sound fair.




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    The whole health insurance and what they wanted with the vision they used is fine, but it's the execution that is screwing everything up. I'm all for free health insurance and if people need it, fair enough, I don't have a problem with it at all. I do have a problem with the fact that if you don't get health insurance you have to pay a fine. This is executed in such a way that it's really meant to completely screw over lower class to poor people so much so that it could screw people up financially for life. I don't support with how they are trying to push this. It's disgusting.

    I support the idea of everyone having healthcare even for free, but I do NOT support penalties or fines for people that don't have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I didnt plug my ears.I just dont really take that question seriously.

    If tuition prices are massively inflated because of government subsidizing it, and universities which dont take federal loans are 50% cheaper, it obvious that the solution is cutting government subsidies. Not really a mind bender there.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
    Well, why do the universities have to raise their prices just because the government is helping people out? Nope, the universities trying to gain more money is the problem, not the government.

    As for student loans, I know, because I have student loans. I don't see the problem with them, unless you don't finish college. It's hard to beat loans at 5% and 6.8%, that's the interest rates of the loans I have. You don't even start paying on your loans until you leave college.

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    You act like getting rid of the Department of Energy and repealing Obamacare is a bad thing. Both of those things are not constitutionally mandated. Did you know that the Department of Energy has responsibility of our nuclear waste stockpiles? Dafuq does the Department of Energy need sole discretion for the nuclear waste for? As for Obamacare, you'd see that funding for medicare and medicaid doesn't get axed. Obamacare, which was drawn up by the health insurance industry, (for those of you that don't know better) is not a money saver. It is guaranteed marketshare for the insurance industry and that is all.
    It is a bad thing. Look at the good of those two, not just the bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *goo View Post
    Side comment. It's interesting how car insurance premiums for young men are based on risk i.e. they pay more as higher risk.

    Yet with Obamacare (life insurance) they pay a disproportionally high cost when they're statistically some of the lowest risk.

    Doesn't sound fair.




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    I'm not sure how men are a lower risk, because women outlive men and men die sooner than women.

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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    The whole health insurance and what they wanted with the vision they used is fine, but it's the execution that is screwing everything up. I'm all for free health insurance and if people need it, fair enough, I don't have a problem with it at all. I do have a problem with the fact that if you don't get health insurance you have to pay a fine. This is executed in such a way that it's really meant to completely screw over lower class to poor people so much so that it could screw people up financially for life. I don't support with how they are trying to push this. It's disgusting.

    I support the idea of everyone having healthcare even for free, but I do NOT support penalties or fines for people that don't have it.
    They need it, EVERYONE, regardless of how healthy or their age, need health insurance. Even pets need health insurance.

    The law will fine you if you don't pay car insurance or don't pay for the other person, so what's wrong with it?

    Also, in the states that did not expand medicaid those people who qualify for medicaid will not be fined. And another thing, if you already have health insurance, you can keep it and won't be fined.

    There is a health care plan for everyone, excluding the states that did not expand medicaid. Why should you not sign up and get affordable health care?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I'm not sure how men are a lower risk, because women outlive men and men die sooner than women.
    What does that have to do with it? If anything that just means older, unhealthy women are on the insurance longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    The law will fine you if you don't pay car insurance or don't pay for the other person, so what's wrong with it?
    Uh, because only recently it wasn't a thing. Making a law forcing citizens to buy into health insurance is ridiculous.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 03-30-2014 at 00:49.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    It is a bad thing. Look at the good of those two, not just the bad.
    I've never understood the argument for obamacare. You had three options before if your work didn't provide insurance or you couldn't afford it easily. Get on government assisted care, go without, or find a plan with a high deductible which is cheaper than most. Now the situation really hasn't changed much but now you are required to have it because it's a law. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I would be willing to bet that many people thought government health care was going to be free. Just my thoughts. Either way insurance companies are still bank rolling off customers but now the government has their hand in the pot.




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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    They need it, EVERYONE, regardless of how healthy or their age, need health insurance. Even pets need health insurance.

    The law will fine you if you don't pay car insurance or don't pay for the other person, so what's wrong with it?

    Also, in the states that did not expand medicaid those people who qualify for medicaid will not be fined. And another thing, if you already have health insurance, you can keep it and won't be fined.

    There is a health care plan for everyone, excluding the states that did not expand medicaid. Why should you not sign up and get affordable health care?
    Tell that to the more than 4.8 million people who've been dropped by their insurance providers.

    As per your earlier post, there is nothing good that has or ever will come about Obamacare and keeping the Department of Energy. I tried and can't for the life of me think of one thing that is positive.

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  13. #62
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    What exactly is wrong with the Department of Energy?
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  14. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-leave-behind/



    Click on the link to read the rest.

    My parents happen to be 2 of the 4.8 million.

    What shocks me is people keep voting in these politicians in those states.
    Good....there is absolutely no need for it to grow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    oh it won't be an inconvenience for the rich...but then again, i'm talking about the ones that are less than the 1%...the ones that own half the world's wealth. the regular rich people, yes it will be inconvenient for them.

    we need a reboot of this government. we need one that is "truly" run by the people, for the people.
    you mean the ones that pay 80% of the bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Downsize military and defense spending. Make education cheaper, give us social healthcare. Force a minimum wage so we can raise up the poor and preserve the middle (spending) class. Close tax loopholes for companies. Stop giving billions in subsidies to companies that already make billions in profit a year. Stop giving out defense contracts for defense projects that go absolutely nowhere. Hold corporations accountable for their actions. Yada-yada.



    The solutions are simple and readily available. America doesn't want to admit it's been wrong this entire time, or make the effort for greater change. Blaming each other and applying short-term fixes is easier.
    No thanks I want to live in a free country not a socialist nightmare.

    Quote Originally Posted by *goo View Post
    Side comment. It's interesting how car insurance premiums for young men are based on risk i.e. they pay more as higher risk.

    Yet with Obamacare (life insurance) they pay a disproportionally high cost when they're statistically some of the lowest risk.

    Doesn't sound fair.




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    because it isnt....It is raping the young to pay for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    The whole health insurance and what they wanted with the vision they used is fine, but it's the execution that is screwing everything up. I'm all for free health insurance and if people need it, fair enough, I don't have a problem with it at all. I do have a problem with the fact that if you don't get health insurance you have to pay a fine. This is executed in such a way that it's really meant to completely screw over lower class to poor people so much so that it could screw people up financially for life. I don't support with how they are trying to push this. It's disgusting.

    I support the idea of everyone having healthcare even for free, but I do NOT support penalties or fines for people that don't have it.
    Doctors and nurses shouldn't get paid????????
    Last edited by Nerevar; 03-30-2014 at 08:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    No thanks I want to live in a free country not a socialist nightmare.
    Can you explain the reasoning here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Try to not post more than one or two posts in a row.



    Can you explain the reasoning here?
    What you think is free isnt. Government control over anything not defense always becomes tyrannical. There is a reason our founders wanted limited government. Socialism has caused more deaths then any form of government.... Hitler killed over 6 million, Stalin around 25 million, Mao over 80 million.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    What you think is free isnt. Government control over anything not defense always becomes tyrannical. There is a reason our founders wanted limited government. Socialism has caused more deaths then any form of government.... Hitler killed over 6 million, Stalin around 25 million, Mao over 80 million.


    1) Nothing is ever free. Taxpayer dollars pay for these things, which are earned through an exchange of goods and labor. The benefit however is that getting sick or hurt won't cripple a person or family on the financial level.

    2) "Government control over anything not defense always becomes tyrannical."
    I think any review of history would demonstrate it was actually through military force tyranny came to fruition. No idea what you're talking about.

    3) Socialism has caused deaths? You don't seem to know what socialism is. Firstly, there's never been a socialist nation, and entities like Nazi Germany and the USSR were far from it. China is a state-capitalist nation.

    Again, there's no 'socialist' nation because the definition has never been matched -- where is the society where everything is owned by the people? There isn't one, there never has been. What there are, however, are social policies that all Government bodies incorporate to some degree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post


    1) Nothing is ever free. Taxpayer dollars pay for these things, which are earned through an exchange of goods and labor. The benefit however is that getting sick or hurt won't cripple a person or family on the financial level.

    2) "Government control over anything not defense always becomes tyrannical."
    I think any review of history would demonstrate it was actually through military force tyranny came to fruition. No idea what you're talking about.

    3) Socialism has caused deaths? You don't seem to know what socialism is. Firstly, there's never been a socialist nation, and entities like Nazi Germany and the USSR were far from it. China is a state-capitalist nation.

    Again, there's no 'socialist' nation because the definition has never been matched -- where is the society where everything is owned by the people? There isn't one, there never has been. What there are, however, are social policies that all Government bodies incorporate to some degree.
    All of them were socialists.... Just because you dont like the outcome doesn't mean you get to redefine what socialism is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Rapture. Using the very first link you provided, all the nations mentioned by you belong or belonged in the socialist category. Since socialism can entail state ownership, which Russia, Germany and China have or have had, then it stands to reason that they would be correctly classified as socialist countries currently or at some point in history. Let's not cherry-pick the concepts of socialism. Every nation on the planet incorporates various aspects of socialism into society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    They need it, EVERYONE, regardless of how healthy or their age, need health insurance. Even pets need health insurance.

    The law will fine you if you don't pay car insurance or don't pay for the other person, so what's wrong with it?

    Also, in the states that did not expand medicaid those people who qualify for medicaid will not be fined. And another thing, if you already have health insurance, you can keep it and won't be fined.

    There is a health care plan for everyone, excluding the states that did not expand medicaid. Why should you not sign up and get affordable health care?

    So then you support the fact that now the government has the right to financially $#@! the poor even more if they don't get health insurance. Again, it's the execution of it. since you support governments royally and financially screwing people because they didn't get their precious way, I have no support for your points from here on. Absolutely ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I'm not sure how men are a lower risk, because women outlive men and men die sooner than women.
    It's really simple. Young men draw less services out of the healthcare industry than any other class (they use it less). Therefore, they're paying a disproportionately high cost to subsidise the other classes that do draw more out.

    Women statistically living longer than men is another example, though. They'll typically draw back out of the services more than older men do.

    If it's insurance, it should be risk based. Therefore, the lower risks should always pay less, the higher risks; more. I don't think Obamacare quite works that way - it's inflating lower risk customers premiums to subsidise higher risk ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Rapture. Using the very first link you provided, all the nations mentioned by you belong or belonged in the socialist category. Since socialism can entail state ownership, which Russia, Germany and China have or have had, then it stands to reason that they would be correctly classified as socialist countries currently or at some point in history. Let's not cherry-pick the concepts of socialism. Every nation on the planet incorporates various aspects of socialism into society.
    Socialism is an economic model, not a government one. You're thinking of something much closer to fascism, not socialism. There's a distinct, fundamental difference between what both entail and mean, as well as a difference between socialism itself and socialist polices (which should not be confused).
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    you mean the ones that pay 80% of the bill?
    compared to how much $#@! they gain with their influence, that is pocket change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    compared to how much $#@! they gain with their influence, that is pocket change.
    They work for it.... what makes you think you deserve what they earned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Rapture. Using the very first link you provided, all the nations mentioned by you belong or belonged in the socialist category. Since socialism can entail state ownership, which Russia, Germany and China have or have had, then it stands to reason that they would be correctly classified as socialist countries currently or at some point in history. Let's not cherry-pick the concepts of socialism. Every nation on the planet incorporates various aspects of socialism into society.
    It's a sliding scale, not binary. Correct.

    In general on this topic: Socialism, Marxism, and, Communism tend to blur around the edges, but there are distinctions.

    As for Fascism, that has proven continually difficult to concretely define.

    At any rate, I think most of us can agree that Wolf is arguing very hard to support positions she does not fully understand. This is not a personal slam against her, I admire her tenacity and that she's really sticking up for what she believes in.

    I also readily admit that my knowledge is fallible, and I think all of you can freely admit the same of yourselves. This being said, I do not believe Wolf's knowledge on this subject to be superior to my own in this instance.

    Perhaps we (Rapture, Morganator, Christopher,PS4freak, etc) can field particular questions from Wolf on this subject to better her understanding and provide sources for her to read from? Not that we all agree perfectly, but it may provide some order to the chaos of this thread.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 03-30-2014 at 22:05.


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