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    MS Demos Cloud Physics, But DF called out its limitations long ago

    http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/04/...been-possible/
    During a livestream from Build Microsoft finally demonstrated the “power of the cloud” used for actual computation, showcasing the destruction of a building with over 35,000 physically simulated pieces falling apart in parallel on a high end PC and on the cloud. While the PC version crawled down to two frames per second, the cloud version kept stable at 32 FPS.
    Here’s what Microsoft’s John Shewchuk had to say during the presentation, that was described as working “on a collection of devices:”
    What we really think is that the power of the cloud enables new kinds of experiences that have never been possible. Even if we had multiple high end machines, they couldn’t do the kind of bandwidth that we’re doing.

    What’s happening is the computation are going on in the cloud, we’re sending those rotations and the positional information down to the clients where the rendering is getting done.

    You can see it for yourself in action below, courtesy of Arekkz Gaming. One thing is for sure. While there’ll be technical hurdles to overcome (especially on the side of internet bandwidth) the demo looks extremely promising, and it’s exciting to think about what can be achieved when this kind of technology will go past the prototype stage.


    However, there is a catch with this type of physics and DF called this out long time ago and its limitation.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...ansform-gaming

    Basically, explosion can only happen in the background. It is not interactive. It is not part of the game. It cannot be used in BF5.

    Basically due to latency, your console is going to think you are hitting the rock when cloud says you are not.

    Or Cloud says you are hitting rock while you arent really.

    So you make it background.

    As a game has only 33 milliseconds to render a frame at 30FPS, such long delays mean the cloud cannot be relied upon for real-time, immediate results per frame. If you crash your Forza car into a wall, you don't want to see your vehicle continuing through to the other side of the scenery for the next three or four frames (even longer on those inevitable internet hiccups) until the physics running on the cloud return with the information that you've crashed.
    Digital Foundry
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 04-04-2014 at 01:46.

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    Was about to post this. Does this prove wizard $#@! exists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IshTing View Post
    Was about to post this. Does this prove wizard $#@! exists?
    Read edited portion. It won't improve graphics because no console or PC harware would have ever wanted to calculate background explosion real time to begin with.

    It is background, so you normally calculate before hand.

    Secondly, you can now change how destruction happens because you changed your input, but what does it matter if you cant interact with it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Read edited portion. It won't improve graphics because no console or PC harware would have ever wanted to calculate background explosion real time to begin with.

    It is background, so you normally calculate before hand.

    Secondly, you can now change how destruction happens because you changed your input, but what does it matter if you cant interact with it?
    Ahhh got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IshTing View Post
    Ahhh got it.
    It is still cool effect just to be clear. Now you have some input to how your environment react.

    If your mission is to set up bombs on a bridge, then you leave the bridge. Then it goes to cut scene or destruction of bridge happens far in background.

    And it destruct based on where you placed the bomb.


    That could happen assuming you have enough power on Cloud side, but with MS said 3 x CPU of X1. So your scale of background explosion may have to be smaller.

    If you wanted to run this scenario without cloud, then your game would do loading screen to calculate the physics.

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    What we really think is that the power of the cloud enables new kinds of experiences that have never been possible. Even if we had multiple high end machines, they couldn’t do the kind of bandwidth that we’re doing.
    yes sir. $#@! is getting good.

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    As a game has only 33 milliseconds to render a frame at 30FPS, such long delays mean the cloud cannot be relied upon for real-time, immediate results per frame. If you crash your Forza car into a wall, you don't want to see your vehicle continuing through to the other side of the scenery for the next three or four frames (even longer on those inevitable internet hiccups) until the physics running on the cloud return with the information that you've crashed.
    Digital Foundry quote updated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Digital Foundry quote updated.
    Yea, it seems DF keeps moving that goal post. That video looks like progress to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    yes sir. $#@! is getting good.
    Yup. It can do something really well that doesn't need to be done. $#@! is getting reaall good.

    X1 Cloud. It just does stuff that is not really useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Yea, it seems DF keeps moving that goal post. That video looks like progress to me.
    Didnt move anything. They called it before it even happened. LOL

    LOL. Nice try man. That was definition of hard grasping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Yup. It can do something really well that doesn't need to be done. $#@! is getting reaall good.

    X1 Cloud. It just does stuff that is not really useful.



    Didnt move anything. They called it before it even happened. LOL

    LOL. Nice try man. That was definition of hard grasping.
    first it was pr and they needed to show something real time. Now its not needed and not useful.....hmmmmmmm. Gotta admit the possibilities are exciting though. It sure out performed the pc in that demo though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    yes sir. $#@! is getting good.
    $#@! is the new good, so is brown the new black?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    first it was pr and they needed to show something real time. Now its not needed and not useful.....hmmmmmmm. Gotta admit the possibilities are exciting though. It sure out performed the pc in that demo though.
    Stop changing the topic man. You said "DF keeps changing the goal post" when in fact they drew a line based on facts while ago and still hold true.

    You were wrong and now you try to weasle your way out of it. How did they change the goal post when they didn't change anything to begin with?

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    Still waiting to see it in an actual game. According to that DF quote it doesn't seem likely for anything meaningful

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    Still waiting to see it in an actual game. According to that DF quote it doesn't seem likely for anything meaningful
    With all the joke aside with Substance trying to make that secret sauce for 999th time, it does not seem so, but I do see some application.

    How about cut scene physics? It is not possible on real time gameplay, but is possible on background and cut scene.

    Funny thing is that cloud offers 0.3 tflop per console. MS said 3 times CPU power. that is 0.1 tflop x 3.

    Now as a X1 fan, do you now have to admit that 0.3 tflop on cut scene can make a difference to say Cloud has some effect?

    Then how about over 0.5 tflop that exist on GPU during real time gameplay where cloud wont work??

    If you admit 0.3 tflop of cloud makes difference on cutscene then you must admit 0.5-0.6 tflop difference making a huge difference on real gameplay.

    I wonder what Substance says to this. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Stop changing the topic man. You said "DF keeps changing the goal post" when in fact they drew a line based on facts while ago and still hold true.

    You were wrong and now you try to weasle your way out of it. How did they change the goal post when they didn't change anything to begin with?
    uh huh. They also said this:

    "Microsoft needs to prove its position with strong ideas and practical demonstrations."
    oh yea, that goal post is moving.

    This is what Mark whitten said:

    So game creators can use raw cloud computation to create bigger multiplayer matches or bigger worlds, more physics, all those things. I think you're going to see unparalleled creativity when you match that power of the new Xbox Live with the power of the new Xbox."
    I think we just saw an example of that.

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    Speaking of cut scene physics, how about Quantum Break? That game seem to be cut scene rich. You can have it so that what you did during your gameplay affects physics of cut scene.

    Limited applications, but there is some use. Pitty it is only 0.3 tflop though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    uh huh. They also said this:


    oh yea, that goal post is moving.
    How was that "goal post moving"? LOL contradicted nothing with regards to their physics being not interactive statement. Literally none.

    That is not a strong case to save your face man.

    This is what Mark whitten said:

    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Proxima]
    I think we just saw an example of that.
    You talking about PR statement? I thought you were about results? This shows non interactive cloud physics.

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    Bu bu but they used it to simulate the creatures in Titanfall background lol, I couldn't hold it in

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Speaking of cut scene physics, how about Quantum Break? That game seem to be cut scene rich. You can have it so that what you did during your gameplay affects physics of cut scene.

    Limited applications, but there is some use. Pitty it is only 0.3 tflop though.
    based on what? we haven't seen enough of the game to really say much about it. E-3 is coming though. I have a feeling remedy's game will impress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    With all the joke aside with Substance trying to make that secret sauce for 999th time, it does not seem so, but I do see some application.

    How about cut scene physics? It is not possible on real time gameplay, but is possible on background and cut scene.

    Funny thing is that cloud offers 0.3 tflop per console. MS said 3 times CPU power. that is 0.1 tflop x 3.

    Now as a X1 fan, do you now have to admit that 0.3 tflop on cut scene can make a difference to say Cloud has some effect?

    Then how about over 0.5 tflop that exist on GPU during real time gameplay where cloud wont work??

    If you admit 0.3 tflop of cloud makes difference on cutscene then you must admit 0.5-0.6 tflop difference making a huge difference on real gameplay.

    I wonder what Substance says to this. LOL
    That's not what they said the "power of the cloud" could provide. :O

    I tend to ignore half of what Substance says anyways. He seems to eat up everything MS says. I'd prefer to see it in actual use, I don't get swayed by tech demos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    That's not what they said the "power of the cloud" could provide. :O

    I tend to ignore half of what Substance says anyways. He seems to eat up everything MS says. I'd prefer to see it in actual use, I don't get swayed by tech demos.
    "The cloud will provide Xbox One developers with the CPU and storage equivalent of three extra consoles, claims Xbox incubation and prototyping group manager Jeff Henshaw."

    http://www.develop-online.net/news/m...werful/0114948

    Xbox One CPU = 0.1 tflop approx

    3 X Xbox One CPU= 0.3 tflop.

    Update
    http://uk.ign.com/blogs/finalverdict...pecifications/

    it is actually 0.112 tflop.

    Keep in mind that this 0.33 tflop is extremely limited use. Like what we talked about with physics that we cannot interact with.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 04-04-2014 at 02:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Basically, explosion can only happen in the background. It is not interactive. It is not part of the game. It cannot be used in BF5.

    Basically due to latency, your console is going to think you are hitting the rock when cloud says you are not.

    So you make it background.
    This is what I've been concerned with since the start. You can't supersede the speed of light. Information only moves so fast. Latency is a fixture of anything cloud-based.

    Like you said, this is for background/non-player interactive scenarios. It's kinda a shame Microsoft elected to offload the console's local performance for a network-based half-solution.
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  26. #23
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    Makes for pretty non interactive backdrops.. Couldn't you accomplish the same thing with prerendering without wasting bandwidth and an online requirement?
    Last edited by faaeng; 04-04-2014 at 03:07.
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  27. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    That's not what they said the "power of the cloud" could provide. :O

    I tend to ignore half of what Substance says anyways. He seems to eat up everything MS says. I'd prefer to see it in actual use, I don't get swayed by tech demos.
    dont make this about me. That was a live unscripted demo showing exactly what they said the cloud could do. It was on PC but this is what people said they wanted to see. A real meaningful demo.

    ah, i see the thread title has been edited now. Man, what is going on around here?...lol
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-04-2014 at 03:22.

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    It won't be used for anything worth a $#@!. So I'm not impressed at all

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