Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    Elite Guru

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Age
    32
    Posts
    5,251
    Rep Power
    91
    Points
    8,442 (0 Banked)

    Microsoft Explains why the Xbox One's ESRAM is a "Huge Win" and Allows Reaching 1080p

    During a livestreamed presentation at Build, Xbox One Team Partner Development Lead Frank Savage explained in detail how the much discussed ESRAM of the Xbox One works, also mentioning that it can help developer sreach the fabled 1080p resolution goal or a 60 frames per second resolution with their games:


    ESRAM is dedicated RAM, it’s 32 megabytes, it sits right next to the GPU, in fact it’s on the other side of the GPU from the buses that talk to the rest of the system, so the GPU is the only thing that can see this memory.

    And what it does is that it gives you very very high bandwidth output, and read capability from the GPU as well. This is useful because in a lot of cases, especially when we have as large content as we have today and five gigabytes that could potentially be touched to render something, anything that we can move to memory that has a bandwidth that’s on the order of 2 to 10 x faster than the regular system memory is gonna be a huge win.

    So this is where you put things that you gonna read a lot like a shadow map, put things that you draw to a lot, like your back buffer… We have resource creation settings that allow you to put things into there, and don’t have to all reside in the ESRAM, there can be pieces of it that can reside in regular memory as well. So for example if I’m a racing game, and I know that the top third of my screen is usually sky and that sky doesn’t get touched very much, great, let’s leave that in regular memory, but with the fast memory down here we’re gonna draw the cars. This works practically for any D3D resource there is, buffers, textures of any flavors… There’s no CPU access here, because the CPU can’t see it, and it’s gotta get through the GPU to get to it, and we didn’t enable that.

    So the last thing you have to do to get it all composited up is to get it copied over to main memory. That copy over to main memory is really fatst, and it doesn’t use any CPU or GPU time either, because we have DMA engines that actually do that for you in the console. This is how you get to 1080p, this is how you run at 60 frames per second… period, if you’re bottlenecked by graphics.



    http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/04/...g-1080p60-fps/
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

  2. #2
    Supreme Veteran
    mynd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Age
    41
    Posts
    17,544
    Rep Power
    162
    Points
    160,958 (0 Banked)
    Items User name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Well $#@!, didn't I say that long time ago?

    So this is where you put things that you gonna read a lot like a shadow map, put things that you draw to a lot, like your back buffer…

  3. #3
    Dedicated Member
    Sajuuk Khar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Age
    26
    Posts
    1,393
    Rep Power
    73
    Points
    8,769 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Well $#@!, didn't I say that long time ago?
    Yeah this basically confirms everything discussed and how best to use the ESRAM. They mention the DMAs being able to move the data quickly, which is cool and another subject we were discussing. They take the procession drain from the CPU or GPU doing the transfer, but they still dig into the ESRAM bandwidth right?

    The CPU non access part is new though. Thought we were under the impression everything was visible to both the CPU and GPU.

    And that upper third rendering of the screen in racing games. Is that really a viable solution and not dependent on the scenery of the course?

  4. #4
    Supreme Veteran
    mynd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Age
    41
    Posts
    17,544
    Rep Power
    162
    Points
    160,958 (0 Banked)
    Items User name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Yeah, they called it as addressable, but i guess thats only to the GPU, yeah still part of both bandwidths, obviously the slowest being the fasted it could do it. ie 68gb/s


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Superior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    583
    Rep Power
    8
    Points
    9,797 (0 Banked)
    Except it doesnt. As shown by many many games and those are devs who are very used to esram thanks to edram on Xbox 360.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 04-05-2014 at 16:09.

  6. Likes Peregrin8X likes this post
  7. #6
    Dedicated Member
    Sajuuk Khar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Age
    26
    Posts
    1,393
    Rep Power
    73
    Points
    8,769 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Except it doesnt. As shown by many many games and those are devs who are very used to esram thanks to edram on Xbox 360.
    Sorry what? :P

  8. #7
    Ultimate Veteran
    mickice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Australia, In a Kangaroo's pouch.
    Age
    27
    Posts
    21,992
    Rep Power
    129
    Points
    22,490 (40,000 Banked)
    Items PlayStationPS3 Slim
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Well $#@!, didn't I say that long time ago?
    Even if this is true, what GPU in this age uses DDR3? you can't win in this situation.
    We are in a GDDR5 era for GPU's and have been for a while.

    - Symmetrical thumb sticks for life -

  9. #8
    Newbie

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    N. London, England
    Posts
    37
    Rep Power
    0
    Points
    606 (0 Banked)
    Microsoft can say anything they want. When they start releasing their games at a standard of 1080p, then I'll care.

  10. Likes snooper71, dondidit likes this post
  11. #9
    Forum Elder
    Yungstar 2006's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    tyneside
    Posts
    2,930
    Rep Power
    59
    Points
    27,898 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by mickice View Post
    Even if this is true, what GPU in this age uses DDR3? you can't win in this situation.
    We are in a GDDR5 era for GPU's and have been for a while.
    What has that got to do with ESRAM being explained for Xbox?

  12. #10
    Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    139
    Rep Power
    56
    Points
    1,869 (0 Banked)
    Until I see verifiable proof in actual games then all this info/talk doesn't really do much for me. I honestly don't think this direct x12 is going to amount to much. Isn't stuff like that helpful for PC? Also I just don't understand how if the PS4 has a better GPU how will the One close the gap much? It's because of these doubts why I don't see the situation changing and the PS4 will remain the system for multiplat titles.

    Also even if the One eventually surprises us and starts releasing 1080 games on a regular basis the question will then be at what cost compared to what the PS4 sacrifices? If and when the Xone starts releasing 1080 games more consistently my guess is that it will need to sacrifice more in some other area of the game compared to the PS4 to reach that target.

  13. #11
    Forum Sage
    Sub-stance1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    9,870
    Rep Power
    77
    Points
    60,062 (0 Banked)
    Items BarcelonaPS3 Slim360 Slim
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by double cross View Post
    Until I see verifiable proof in actual games then all this info/talk doesn't really do much for me. I honestly don't think this direct x12 is going to amount to much. Isn't stuff like that helpful for PC? Also I just don't understand how if the PS4 has a better GPU how will the One close the gap much? It's because of these doubts why I don't see the situation changing and the PS4 will remain the system for multiplat titles.

    Also even if the One eventually surprises us and starts releasing 1080 games on a regular basis the question will then be at what cost compared to what the PS4 sacrifices? If and when the Xone starts releasing 1080 games more consistently my guess is that it will need to sacrifice more in some other area of the game compared to the PS4 to reach that target.
    I guess we will find out, won't we. Dx12 sure isn't gonna hurt xb1. I think we may see what dx 12 does for xb1 at e3.

  14. #12
    Superior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    583
    Rep Power
    8
    Points
    9,797 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by double cross View Post
    Until I see verifiable proof in actual games then all this info/talk doesn't really do much for me. I honestly don't think this direct x12 is going to amount to much. Isn't stuff like that helpful for PC? Also I just don't understand how if the PS4 has a better GPU how will the One close the gap much? It's because of these doubts why I don't see the situation changing and the PS4 will remain the system for multiplat titles.

    Also even if the One eventually surprises us and starts releasing 1080 games on a regular basis the question will then be at what cost compared to what the PS4 sacrifices? If and when the Xone starts releasing 1080 games more consistently my guess is that it will need to sacrifice more in some other area of the game compared to the PS4 to reach that target.
    Dx12 gives console like API to PC.

    http://www.gamepur.com/files/imagepi...on-slide-5.jpg

    Giving X1 Console like API will not help it since it just gives what it has already.

    Having said that, i am sure API just in general will get updated and better just like it will for any other console. As things mature, better developed they get.

  15. #13
    Elite Guru

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Age
    32
    Posts
    5,251
    Rep Power
    91
    Points
    8,442 (0 Banked)
    Great explaination:


    DMA engines, Direct Memory Access, special registers that pull push data around with their own que system separate of the CPU. ie: MS's custom "MOVE ENGINES" on the X1 SoC are what is being referred to here.

    They are saying they omitted the ability for the CPU to access the ESRAM because they have (four iirc) move engines that can do this concurrently without the CPU being bothered. This is a massive advantage in real world bandwidth and real world latency numbers for the system's combine ESRAM and DDR3.

    Basically, the difference being the PS4 has two direct channels to memory (CPU+GPU) that can write concurrently but both require the commands to be cached, the Xbox has far more options (CPU to DD3, GPU to DD3, GPU to ESRAM, Move engines to ESRAM, Move engines to DDR3) of which some can read/write/copy concurrently.

    This is only a big deal if an engine is designed to access them. On the PS4, nothing needs to be done to get full speed, but that also means there is the less potential for optimization, the result is an immediate benefit for PS4, and a delayed on for X1. Expect big gains in new engines and poorer performance in old engines that do not utilize the concurrent read/write/move. Exactly what we are seeing with launch multiplats on old engines, and much better performance on games designed specifically for X1 (Ryse and Forza).
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

  16. #14
    Apprentice
    on the rocks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    PSN ID
    nordost
    Posts
    318
    Rep Power
    59
    Points
    1,259 (0 Banked)
    It's a huge win when we see results and a 900p 30fps and a 1080p with no aa game are not proof of that.

  17. #15
    Superior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    583
    Rep Power
    8
    Points
    9,797 (0 Banked)
    LOL. Did X2 quote some random guy on internet on comment section?

    what is this nonsense about Esram and devs not being familar with them and stuff?

    MS themselves said it is very similar to Edram on X360 and devs should not have problem with programming.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...one-architects

    Program isnt the program of esram. It is esram and its weaker hardware overall.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 04-06-2014 at 03:00.

  18. #16
    Elite Sage
    Two4DaMoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Age
    27
    Posts
    12,449
    Rep Power
    111
    Points
    15,302 (75,576 Banked)
    Items Naughty DogPS3 SlimNaughty DogUser name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    If things are so awesome then why are devs catching all this hell coding for the console? $#@! simply doesn't add up.

    Destiny and Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor is all I need for the rest of the year.

  19. Likes dondidit likes this post
  20. #17
    Superior Member
    Peregrin8X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    orange county
    Posts
    529
    Rep Power
    17
    Points
    11,245 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    If things are so awesome then why are devs catching all this hell coding for the console? $#@! simply doesn't add up.
    pretty much.

  21. Likes dondidit likes this post
  22. #18
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Vulgotha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    24
    Posts
    15,953
    Rep Power
    144
    Points
    106,715 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Technical, but it fulfills a PR 'spin' purpose. Ultimately, Microsoft made a gamble and it didn't pan out the way they were hoping.

    ESRAM was a clever idea to hit 8GB of memory while still retaining decent bandwidth figures and it opens up some options for techniques, but I don't buy into the idea that its inclusion was a 'net win' for the machine not by a long shot.

    A fast pool of GDDR5 + simplified layout + extra compute units >>>>> Esram.

    But they were playing very conservatively this generation, so they weren't willing to stick their necks out and settle with less memory in the box pending some kind of density break through with GDDR5.

    On the other hand, could have been interesting if the engineers had actually gotten the figure they wanted- 64MB. I wonder what things would be like if everything else was the same, but they had twice the ESRAM and more bandwidth.


  23. Likes AttackTitan likes this post
  24. #19
    Dedicated Member
    victorijapoosp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,237
    Rep Power
    46
    Points
    13,402 (0 Banked)
    Items User name style
    in order to reach 1080p, There will need to be very major graphical downgrades.


    You can't be serious with the 30 megabyte signature... ~ Staff

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

    SHIMAASAAAANIIII!!!!!
    http://i.imgur.com/bP50xuM.png

  25. #20
    Superior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    583
    Rep Power
    8
    Points
    9,797 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    in order to reach 1080p, There will need to be very major graphical downgrades.


    Don't you know? Those are cloud crowds.

    As Forza devs have said before, you can offload background latency insensitive stuff to cloud. Results? Cardboard cloud crowd.

  26. #21
    Forum Elder
    chrisw26308's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    42
    Posts
    2,622
    Rep Power
    73
    Points
    13,537 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    in order to reach 1080p, There will need to be very major graphical downgrades.


    Lmao dude.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  27. #22
    Forum Overseer
    Omar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    30,527
    Rep Power
    190
    Points
    107,794 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    i'm not seeing anything here we didn't already know. the point isn't that X1 can't reach 1080p at 60fps. heck, you could make a game on PS4 that could reach 4K at 120fps...what will that prove?

    yes, the newer engines will definitely bring improvement but that's where things get tricky...they don't talk about how much improvement there will be. hence why this is all PR.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
vBCredits II Deluxe v2.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2010-2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.