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    Crytek Shares Secrets of Using Xbox One eSRAM's Full Potential

    Usage like this should bold well for future xb1 games!!!



    The increased power that the Xbox One and PS4 offer over the previous generation of consoles has been as hot a topic now as it was when both consoles launched. However, it’s been observed that the Xbox One falls ever so slightly (at best) behind the PS4 in many frame rate tests, not including the lack of 1080p titles compared to Sony’s console.

    Many developers have attributed this to the console’s eSRAM. Crytek has more than its share of experience with the same having developed Ryse: Son of Rome, which is one of the best looking launch titles for either console till date. GamingBolt spoke to Crytek’s US Engine Business Development Manager Sean Tracy about the advantages of using CryEngine when used with tiled textures since eSRAM is more suited for the latter.

    “CryEngine has a unique and novel solution for this and was shipped with Ryse. One of the problems when using Deferred Shading is that it’s very heavy on bandwidth usage/memory traffic. This gets exponentially worse as overlapping lights cause considerable amounts of redundant read and write operations. In Ryse our graphics engineers created a system called tiled shading to take advantage of the Xbox One,” Sean explained.

    “This splits the screen into tiles and generates a list of all the lights effective each title using a compute shader. It then cull’s light by min/max extents of the tile. We then loop over the light list for each tile and apply shading.


    Ultimately this resulted into bandwidth gains and they were able to use just a single compute shader for culling and lighting, which is simply phenomenal. “In practice this made for the biggest bandwidth save we could have hoped for, as just reading the Gbuffer once and writing shading results once at the end for each pixel. Only a single compute shader was used in Ryse for light culling and executing entire lighting and shading pipelines (with some small exceptions for complex surfaces like skin and hair).”

    What are your thoughts on the same? Let us know in the comments. For more on Ryse’s graphics, check out our technical analysis of the game over here.

    This is just a snippet of our interview with Crytek and we will have more in the coming days

    Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/crytek-shares-...qfBpfqFhiSB.99
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    They did a great job with Ryse so Crytek obviously knows what theyre doing.

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    Its nice of them to share tips for addressing the esram on the xb1, but heres my worry. If Ryse is to be an example of Crytek using this technique to take full advantage of the XB1s esram and that game was only capable of 900p/30fps... I dont know if this is good news or not.... O_O

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    Quote Originally Posted by faaeng View Post
    Its nice of them to share tips for addressing the esram on the xb1, but heres my worry. If Ryse is to be an example of Crytek using this technique to take full advantage of the XB1s esram and that game was 900p/30fps... I dont know if this is good news or not.... O_O

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    Lol a secret from a dev that could only achieve 900p@30fps? Welp

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    Quote Originally Posted by faaeng View Post
    Its nice of them to share tips for addressing the esram on the xb1, but heres my worry. If Ryse is to be an example of Crytek using this technique to take full advantage of the XB1s esram and that game was only capable of 900p/30fps... I dont know if this is good news or not.... O_O Sent from my One using Tapatalk
    Good point. Didnt think of it that way.

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    They chose 900p that was a design choice.

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    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    I never bought that excuse.
    Had every dev not had difficulties then Id've believed it was a choice and not a restriction...

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    Last edited by faaeng; 05-11-2014 at 23:19.
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    Quote Originally Posted by faaeng View Post
    I never bought that excuse. Had every dev not had difficulties attaining 1080p@60fps then Id've believed them.... Sent from my One using Tapatalk
    Alot of devs had trouble attaining 1080p period on X1.

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    There should not be tips and tricks to develop a game properly on the system. Something Sony learned with the PS3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Alot of devs had trouble attaining 1080p period on X1.
    Thats my point. If devs didnt have all those issues attaining 1080p, id believe it was a design choice to go 900p. Since they all are having issues I never bought that excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal View Post
    There should not be tips and tricks to develop a game properly on the system.
    That was Sony last gen lol
    Last edited by faaeng; 05-11-2014 at 23:29.
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    Well the X1 is clearly a system built around tile resources.

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    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    Well the X1 is clearly a system built around tile resources. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    Dat secret sauce.

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    Crytek made an impressive first entry into next gen. Hopefully they can achieve 60 fps and 1080p with the next.

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    Crytek sure made a beautiful game using xb1. Very impressive.


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    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 05-12-2014 at 04:22.

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    Tiled shading has been around for a while, I don't think it was specifically invented for ryse on the xbone, nor was the xbone "built around tiled resources". However crytek needed it to get around the xbone's severe ESRAM bottleneck, not really "potential".

    edit:
    Also

    Ultimately this resulted into bandwidth gains and they were able to use just a single compute shader for culling and lighting, which is simply phenomenal. “In practice this made for the biggest bandwidth save we could have hoped for, as just reading the Gbuffer once and writing shading results once at the end for each pixel. Only a single compute shader was used in Ryse for light culling and executing entire lighting and shading pipelines (with some small exceptions for complex surfaces like skin and hair).”
    Clearly the advantage of using tiled shading, as efficiently as this means = more shader cores = higher performance. I think this will also have a direct impact on PS4 because performance scales directly with number of shader cores.

    Xbone has around 768 while PS4 has 1152. And of course PCs increase compute shader cores every other bloody month. All games will benefit due to shared architecture and programming languages.

    Good research paper on it.

    http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~uffe/til...g_preprint.pdf
    Last edited by victorijapoosp; 05-12-2014 at 04:50.
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    Tiled shading has been around for a while, I don't think it was specifically invented for ryse on the xbone, nor was the xbone built around "tiled resources". However crytek needed it to get around the xbone's severe ESRAM bottleneck, not really "potential". edit: Also Clearly the advantage of using tiled shading, as efficiently as this means = more shader cores = higher performance. I think this will also have a direct impact on PS4 because performance scales directly with number of shader cores. Xbone has around 768 while PS4 has 1152. And of course PCs increase compute shader cores every other bloody month. All games will benefit due to shared architecture and programming languages. Good research paper on it. http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~uffe/til...g_preprint.pdf
    Thanks for that info. +rep since I'm out of likes right now. lol Edit - says I have to spread it around.

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    X1 was built around DX 12 and tiled resources. That's why it is a low latency system. Ill explain when I get to my lap top.

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    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    X1 was built around DX 12 and tiled resources. That's why it is a low latency system. Ill explain when I get to my lap top.

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    Ahh that old chestnut. Okay. I'm pretty sure "tiled resources" were built around taking advantage of compute shader cores.
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    Tiled shading is not the same thing as Tiled resources.

    Shading, what we are talking about here in the thread.
    Resources, a similar technique to Id mega texture where only the texture detail actually visible is loaded into RAM.

    Tiled only refers to how both of them break down their respective work loads into smaller chunks and work on the parts in an efficient manner.

    What Crytek is doing sound awfully similar to what DICE developed for Frostbite to get deferred shading working on the 360

    http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio...-speed-the-run

    Page 63 onward, with 70 detailing how the screen is split up into tiles. No doubt these techniques are carrying over from the 360 to the X1 because of the limitations both had from the EDRAM and ESRAM respectively.

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    Also, Ryse isn't first game from Crytek to have engine which can use Tiled Deferred Shading.
    CryEngine3 launched with Crysis2 had a early version of it, even though game didn't use it.
    http://www.crydev.net/viewtopic.php?...956a19#p800717

    Also it's quite common method on Ps3 (IE. Uncharted 1-3, TloU)and been getting more popular. (Frostbite engine. (Battlefield 3-4(2) etc.))
    Also screenspace/spatial tiling has been something that is bringing Forward Rendering back as well. with tiling it's called Forward+..
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    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    X1 was built around DX 12 and tiled resources. That's why it is a low latency system. Ill explain when I get to my lap top.

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    It's a way to shoehorn all the work possible through as little a hole as possible. Like a high pressure wash.
    But, there's still only so much pressure you can put on it.

    Now, how about Tiling on the PS4 with variable pipe sizes and more pressure (50% more GPU units).
    Better programming techniques always can help. But, it's still in the PS4's favor.

    What would be a disservice is to use better programming on XBO and shoddy on PS4 and use it to mask things because of a microsoft CONTRACT term. I say that instead of payoff, oh, wait, i said payoff, oh well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by faaeng View Post
    Its nice of them to share tips for addressing the esram on the xb1, but heres my worry. If Ryse is to be an example of Crytek using this technique to take full advantage of the XB1s esram and that game was only capable of 900p/30fps... I dont know if this is good news or not.... O_O

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    they can do better than 900p and 30fps, maybe not at the same time and if they did, it wouldn't look as amazing as other titles of that time.

    point is though, even if they do achieve 1080p and likely 30fps (which would likely be the choice) then we'll have to see how they're doing against the best looking games to see where X1 power stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    They chose 900p that was a design choice.

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    everything is a design choice, the point is that going 900p instead of 1080p means they wanted to conserve resources. it's the same reason most titles in the future will likely be 1080p/30fps on PS4, and not 60fps (unless it was really needed, like in GT7, then again, GT7 will likely look better than anything else at 1080p/60fps because PD is just that skillfull).
    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    Well the X1 is clearly a system built around tile resources.

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    and still difficult to develop for.
    Quote Originally Posted by A1ANDY View Post
    Crytek made an impressive first entry into next gen. Hopefully they can achieve 60 fps and 1080p with the next.
    they can achieve 1080p and 60fps now, that's not the issue. what's going to matter is if they do put out a game at 1080p/30fps or 60fps. will it stand against the best-looking games of that time? they could've made Ryse at 1080p and 60fps but it would've looked far worse with far less objects in the game, far less draw distance and effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    X1 was built around DX 12 and tiled resources. That's why it is a low latency system. Ill explain when I get to my lap top.

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    alright dr. x2. you're not getting the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    What would be a disservice is to use better programming on XBO and shoddy on PS4 and use it to mask things because of a microsoft CONTRACT term. I say that instead of payoff, oh, wait, i said payoff, oh well.
    i don't think that would ever happen. it's too much of a cut-throat business now for this to even be considered. especially since PS4 is going to have a lot of attraction and one could easily make more money on the PS4 instead. MS would need to pay more than the game's worth to be able to do this.

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    While it would be nice for the thread to not turn in some mildly hostile back and forth, very aware that it probably will :P. But could we maybe keep it to analyzing the techniques Crytek has shared and compare it to other engines that potentially do the same thing to mitigate ESRAM storage limitations.

    Having said that though, it is interesting to note that the new wolfenstein game is going to be 1080p/60 on both new consoles. Though this is not that surprising because..

    1) The game is being developed for ps3 and 360, so the ps4 and X1 versions are mostly an game asset upgrade and output res bump.
    2) The game is using id tech 5 which is a forward renderer, which the X1 should have no issues with as its main problems seem to come from when deferred rendering is used. Forza 5 was also forward rendering.

    A technical break down of this game would be interesting to see what they are doing under the hood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar View Post
    While it would be nice for the thread to not turn in some mildly hostile back and forth, very aware that it probably will :P. But could we maybe keep it to analyzing the techniques Crytek has shared and compare it to other engines that potentially do the same thing to mitigate ESRAM storage limitations.
    then maybe 3, possibly 4 people will be left to reply to this thread here on out lol.

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