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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    So why bother responding to me?
    Nothing you've said negates anything Ive said.
    I said games wont be 60fps, and most games wont hit 1080p.
    Nothing you've said contradicts what I said.
    Two examples don't really break the rule, but considering Watch Dogs is been longer in gestation than BF4, I would suggest it may just be the start of the trend going forward.



    Ported games are hardly going to take away my point now are they.
    All they do is reinforce the fact that you can happily hits 60fps if you program you game like it was a last gen game.

    I'm not taking away from the fact that whatever res they settle on, its going to be higher on the PS4 than XBO, that goes without saying.
    All I'm syaing is, 60fps will not in any way be the norm, and its more likely than not that even 1080p will be sacrificed.
    If a game looks beautiful you really shouldn't care if Watch Dogs is 900p or 1080p.
    no it does negate your point. your point was that you can easily hit 1080p 60fps on cross-gen, that's not true. actually, "so far" we have no proof that they are easier than games that were specifically designed for next-gen. i'd argue that it was the opposite.

    games that are multiplats built for next-gen only, would be better off hitting higher specs than games that are being works on so many platforms that resources are spread thin. while it would "seem" that they should have no issue hitting the highest specs possible on these consoles, the problem therein lies that the engine isn't tuned for next-gen, it's being tuned for multiple configurations, with a very low common denominator.

    so no, they aren't happily hitting 60fps just cause they're cross-gen, that isn't true. the opposite has been the case overall. especially with games that are heavy on resources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    And who is this sebbi? Some random poster on beyond3d forums?

    He is actually a dev that develops for both ps4 and XB1

    Matter of fact you can judge him by these articles:

    Redlynx' lead graphics programmer Sebbi talks about DirectX 12

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...tech-interview

    Short article: http://www.gamepur.com/news/14489-di...enance-ea.html
    Last edited by X2; 05-22-2014 at 22:35.
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    He is actually a dev that develops for both ps4 and XB1 Matter of fact you can judge him by these articles: Redlynx' lead graphics programmer Sebbi talks about DirectX 12 http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...tech-interview Short article: http://www.gamepur.com/news/14489-di...enance-ea.html
    Well what he said on beyond3d can actually be said about both consoles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Well what he said on beyond3d can actually be said about both consoles.
    I understand that but isn't this thread suppose to be about the X1!
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    So why bother responding to me? Nothing you've said negates anything Ive said. I said games wont be 60fps, and most games wont hit 1080p. Nothing you've said contradicts what I said. Two examples don't really break the rule, but considering Watch Dogs is been longer in gestation than BF4, I would suggest it may just be the start of the trend going forward. Ported games are hardly going to take away my point now are they. All they do is reinforce the fact that you can happily hits 60fps if you program you game like it was a last gen game. I'm not taking away from the fact that whatever res they settle on, its going to be higher on the PS4 than XBO, that goes without saying. All I'm syaing is, 60fps will not in any way be the norm, and its more likely than not that even 1080p will be sacrificed. If a game looks beautiful you really shouldn't care if Watch Dogs is 900p or 1080p.
    Yeah anybody expecting 60fps to be the standard especially at 1080p is going to be sorely disappointed. And I agree, I'll take more eye candy at 30fps or at 900p over having the graphics scaled back to accomodate 60fps or even 1080p.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    I understand that
    Well as long as you understand that then we're on the same page.

  7. #107
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    why again do ALL games have to be 60FPS???


    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Ok... I was wrong. Happy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shafty- View Post
    why again do ALL games have to be 60FPS???
    they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by X2 View Post
    He is actually a dev that develops for both ps4 and XB1

    Matter of fact you can judge him by these articles:

    Redlynx' lead graphics programmer Sebbi talks about DirectX 12

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...tech-interview

    Short article: http://www.gamepur.com/news/14489-di...enance-ea.html
    and that still doesn't change the point i made earlier. it's not going to help the X1, it's going to hurt it.
    Last edited by Omar; 05-22-2014 at 23:31.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    your point was that you can easily hit 1080p 60fps on cross-gen
    Errr where exactly did I say all this. I never said anyone was happily hitting 60fps on cross gen titles?

    I said
    "Once this generation gets started in earnest you wont be hearing 1080p/60 from anyone except budget/indie games.

    Hell you're going to be lucky to hear 1080p/30 from most devs."

    I didn't mention cross-gen at all.
    I was asked when this generation will truly start and I said when we aren't developing for cross gen platforms. I was not implying anything about cross gen games being 60fps. I was simply stating that once they can knuckle down on these systems and get the most out of them they wont be getting 60fps.


    games that are multiplats built for next-gen only, would be better off hitting higher specs than games that are being works on so many platforms that resources are spread thin. while it would "seem" that they should have no issue hitting the highest specs possible on these consoles, the problem therein lies that the engine isn't tuned for next-gen, it's being tuned for multiple configurations, with a very low common denominator.
    And the flip side of that is that they can focus on better looking graphics for the system. Which will put more strain not less on the systems.
    You don't take your foot of the gas when you hit next gen only..oh look we've got rid of last gen constraints, now we can take it easy.
    Not going to happen.
    That low common denominator should be working in favor of the next gen consoles not against it.
    I don't get how you could possibly suggest that because a game is mutliplatform/cross gen that somehow it is going to suffer under a more powerful machine.
    That doesnt really make sense. maybe if the architecture of these consoles was alien, but it isnt.
    so no, they aren't happily hitting 60fps just cause they're cross-gen, that isn't true. the opposite has been the case overall. especially with games that are heavy on resources.
    No one said it was true. No one ever said all cross gen games should hit 60fps. Most of the good devs are actually try to make a difference between last gen and next gen, in some way or shape.
    Ports..ports on the other hand..different kettle of fish.
    Last edited by mynd; 05-22-2014 at 23:46.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Errr where exactly did I say all this. I never said anyone was happily hitting 60fps on cross gen titles?

    I said
    "Once this generation gets started in earnest you wont be hearing 1080p/60 from anyone except budget/indie games.

    Hell you're going to be lucky to hear 1080p/30 from most devs."

    I didn't mention cross-gen at all.

    I was asked when this generation will truly start and I said when we aren't developing for cross gen platforms. I was not implying anything about cross gen games being 60fps. I was simply stating that once they can knuckle down on these systems and get the most out of them they wont be getting 60fps.
    so what did you mean here,
    but considering Watch Dogs is been longer in gestation than BF4, I would suggest it may just be the start of the trend going forward. Ported games are hardly going to take away my point now are they. All they do is reinforce the fact that you can happily hits 60fps if you program you game like it was a last gen game.
    i think you have to be clear about what you're saying. so far...ports have been cross-gen. so what do you mean when you say "ports"...and which games are you talking about?

    And the flip side of that is that they can focus on better looking graphics for the system. Which will put more strain not less on the systems.
    You don't take your foot of the gas when you hit next gen only..oh look we've got rid of last gen constraints, now we can take it easy.
    Not going to happen.
    That low common denominator should be working in favor of the next gen consoles not against it.
    I don't get how you could possibly suggest that because a game is mutliplatform/cross gen that somehow it is going to suffer under a more powerful machine.
    That doesnt really make sense. maybe if the architecture of these consoles was alien, but it isnt.
    no, i know that "technically" last-gen games should be easily 1080p 60fps, my point that i thought i made clear, was that they are "spread too thin" and apparently it's not working out. It now makes sense why Activision is dropping last-gen ports with their next COD game. and if they are doing it then it's likely others will follow suit. because they probably know the risks more than others.

    but yes, it does help when you take out last gen, it's possible that the code wouldn't be optimized to use the extra oomph provided by these consoles...so many things that can be wrong...e.g. engine itself (has last-gen features which may or may not be efficient), coding (that has to facilitate last-gen so now next-gen is basically emulating the code, it's not built for it), and then there's the time/target issue, amount of people working on the game, budget, outsourcing.

    i can just imagine the amount of **** they'd have to cut out because last-gen consoles can't do it. they ain't gonna go out of their way to build the game again for next-gen, all they can do within time and budget is to just up the effects, res, details, AA, AF etc. like PC does with console ports. the core is still the same.

    so yeah, an improved engine that would only work on next-gen would definitely help cut down resources needed. e.g. i'm positive UE4 is far more efficient than UE3. i have heard good stuff about it. so if you were putting out a game with UE3 (like Thief right?) well it won't work well on next-gen consoles, because it's extremely inefficient but UE4 as a whole wouldn't work on last-gen consoles because they didn't design it for them...though i'd argue if they did design it for last-gen (separately), hypothetically speaking, then it's possible some games would look better on the previous consoles moving forward.

    efficiency is so important. remember the doom 3 engine? they made it to where it could display those awesome graphics at fraction of the cost. that's what i'm talking about. you need the right engine, right tools.

    but anyway, i'm not disagreeing that it would make future games 60fps or 1080p because devs would easily just choose to add more details or objects or a bigger world than worry about 60fps or 1080p first. they would want to portray their "vision" first and then work towards the rest later. i get that. i agree with you there. we shouldn't expect 60fps or even 1080p. though Sony's first party will likely always opt for 1080p because generally their games are efficient anyway and they probably don't care to overkill on graphics because making graphics better costs money. they just need to make it good enough to compete.

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    I just do not get how some people are so desperate to believe anything despite all the facts we have available to us.

    Facts
    -X1 has far weaker GPU.
    -X1 has bigger OS burden.
    -X1 has weaker Ram.
    -Games have shown to be consistently weaker graphics on X1.

    Yet. People desperately go on believing some secret sauces.
    -DX12 which most of features will just get ported to PS4. As matter of fact, DX11 features are on PS4 already...
    -Cloud. Everything upto this point has proven that cloud is just used as regular dedicated server. Loaning 0.3 tflop wont do squat given it is small amount of power and consoles cant even use it for much. It never works with anything time sensitive and interactive which means not much use.

    face the facts. Stop chasing that 100th secret sauce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I see what your saying.

    My understanding s the GPU slice is used for rendering the o/s windows and kinect functions.
    Now,what kinect functions? Skeletal tracking of VR or both? I'm not sure they have ever expanded on that.

    As for the 8% as I said complete rumor, I wouldn't hold that much faith in it.

    My point wasn't that they could free up x amount of it, but that disabling the skeletal tracking wouldn't be that hard.
    What that would yield in terms of actual performance gain? Only MS really know that answer.
    As a default, you would assume VR. Not Skeletal. That is a huge leap in assumption. They never mentioned anything about gpu reserved for skeletal. Didn't even imply it. If it was so easy, then they would have done it long time ago which tells us that most likely there isnt skeletal tracking to drop to begin with.

    So it goes back to this. Do they drop voice recognition, do they drop Snap? Unless they drop one of those, it is going to be small and tiny gain. Even if they drop one of those, it is still relatively small gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    As a default, you would assume VR. Not Skeletal. That is a huge leap in assumption. They never mentioned anything about gpu reserved for skeletal. Didn't even imply it. If it was so easy, then they would have done it long time ago which tells us that most likely there isnt skeletal tracking to drop to begin with.

    So it goes back to this. Do they drop voice recognition, do they drop Snap? Unless they drop one of those, it is going to be small and tiny gain. Even if they drop one of those, it is still relatively small gain.
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-gpu-bandwidth

    Microsoft has confirmed that this boost in performance is in fact due to Kinect being stripped from the package. When asked if the two were related, a Microsoft spokesperson sent Eurogamer the following response:

    "Yes, the additional resources allow access to up to 10 per cent additional GPU performance. We're committed to giving developers new tools and flexibility to make their Xbox One games even better by giving them the option to use the GPU reserve in whatever way is best for them and their games."

    And will this mean more games will hit the 1080p 60fps benchmark that's all the rage these days, I asked?

    "Xbox One games look beautiful and have rich gameplay and platform features. How developers choose to access the extra GPU performance for their games will be up to them. We have started working with a number of developers on how they can best take advantage of these changes. We will have more to share in the future."

    Microsoft also offered the following statement on the dev kit update in general:

    “Just as we're committed to making ongoing system updates for our fans to enjoy new features of Xbox One, we're also committed to giving developers new tools and flexibility to make their Xbox One games even better. In June we're releasing a new SDK making it possible for developers to access additional GPU resources previously reserved for Kinect and system functions. The team is continually calibrating the system to determine how we can give developers more capabilities. With this SDK, we will include new options for how developers can use the system reserve as well as more flexibility in our natural user interface reserve (voice and gesture). We'll continue to work closely with developers to help them bring great games to Xbox One.”
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  14. #114
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    Goodness.

    The XB1 can't become more powerful. The system specs are what they are, and that won't change. /thread




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    Surely this is just going to make life harder for X1 developers? Now they'll have to optimise it twice, for those that have Kinect and those that don't.


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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Goodness.

    The XB1 can't become more powerful. The system specs are what they are, and that won't change. /thread
    actually it can...because one of the problems the console has is that its resources are being used for non-gaming functionality. if those resources are given back, it will have more for games. but we don't know if the news is true or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJe View Post
    Surely this is just going to make life harder for X1 developers? Now they'll have to optimise it twice, for those that have Kinect and those that don't.
    No they just have to not use it, like 95% of games already dont.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    actually it can...because one of the problems the console has is that its resources are being used for non-gaming functionality. if those resources are given back, it will have more for games. but we don't know if the news is true or not.
    That doesn't change the "power" of the system. This is PR, nothing more. Let's see a developer prove me wrong.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    That doesn't change the "power" of the system. This is PR, nothing more. Let's see a developer prove me wrong.
    there's no real way to know what this will do, if it would even be there.

    because the difference is going to be, a more stable fps, or better AA or textures or details in general. you wouldn't know what it would've been without the boost. the difference would be minimal.

    but the point is, if something takes away resources, you have less for games, if it gives it back, you have more for games.

    one is bad, one is good.

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    How this time slice/resource was reserved will ultimately decide how beneficial it will be.

    Some scenarios to think about....

    1/Freeing up more CU's all the time, vs simply a time slice would reap results well in above a straight return.
    i.e. If the GPU was actually running 10 CU the entire time devoted to games, with 2 sliced off for Kinect

    2/If the time slice was used duplexed, ie, 1% Kinect/ 9% Game /1% Kinect/ 9% Game/1% Kinect/ 9% Game
    Every time you switched caches woudl be flushed, pipelines stalled etc etc (this would be the worst possible way to do it I doubt MS did it this way).

    3/The time slice was simply reserved at the end of every arbitary time (eg 1/30ths of a second, actually does anyone know the fps resolution of Kinect?), i.e. 90% game/ 10% Kinect
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    I guess u guys didn't get a whiff of that AMD and MS developer meeting that just past. I think u guys are looking at the wring things. Try to find some more info on AMD GCN 768 SPU

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
    --Kaz Hirai, CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment

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    I wonder if devs will need to start adding a Kinect symbol on the back of the box.
    No Kinect lovin for you.

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    Spencer also illustrated how the Xbox One’s increase in performance due to the unlocking of the previously Kinect-only hardware resources actually works:

    It has nothing to do with Kinect being hooked up. The game decides, you don’t need to disconnect Kinect.

    That’s right. Game decides reserve, when you are back in dash Kinect will work as always, no need to disconnect.

    No need to unplug. Game just decides how much of GPU it wants to use.


    He finally explained that commands like “Xbox Record That” will still work even if the game makes use o Kinect’s resources for other tasks:

    Keep it plugged in, no need to unplug, you’ll still want Kinect for all the things it’s great at.

    You don’t need to unplug anything. Kinect will work great when it should and games will do what they need to do to use GPU
    http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/06/...to-sonys-show/

    It is nice to be proven right in your assumptions now and then.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    "Keep it plugged in, no need to unplug," please, we need that data that we will only use with your permission.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi View Post
    "keep it plugged in, no need to unplug," please, we need that data that we will only use with your permission.
    lol.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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