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  1. #26
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    @nerevar. you just found that out about bitbydeath?

    as for killing people, it's a difficult situation. i don't wish death on the worst of criminals but for some reason, people who do fraud (or white-collar crime in general on a big scale)...oddly i'm less empathetic towards them. why? because a criminal who robs, probably has a better reason to do so (not necessarily reason but also the environment this person was in) whereas a businessperson does it knowingly with a clear mind. that to me, is worse than anything.

    they don't just ruin lives, they also kill people, indirectly. that's the same thing. and how many people it can and does affect, it's far worse than a two-bit criminal.
    Last edited by Omar; 05-30-2014 at 03:33.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    Mistercrow is right though. You come off as having a very concerning apathetic mindset in regards to human beings.
    Thanks, I like things tidy.


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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    That's no reason for someone to be put to death.

    I am for change and rehabilitation. Consider this: the prisoners who are rehabilitated return back to the streets, but can't get a job. That in turn makes them go back to crimes. If the job market would give people more chances, we might would have less drug dealers and burglary in this country.
    Guy kills 5 innocent children just because he felt like it that day. He should 100 years in prison while getting food, clothing, entertainment and family visits while the parents of the children he kills gets nothing but heartache and resentment to our cruel world.

    NERP

    HANG THAT FRAUD!

    If you get jailed for cocaine, weed, jaywalking... fine.

    Murder? And we know without a shadow of doubt that YOU commited a crime that wasn't in self-defense... yeah. HANG THAT FRAUD.


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  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by $Greatness$ View Post
    Guy kills 5 innocent children just because he felt like it that day. He should 100 years in prison while getting food, clothing, entertainment and family visits while the parents of the children he kills gets nothing but heartache and resentment to our cruel world.

    NERP

    HANG THAT FRAUD!

    If you get jailed for cocaine, weed, jaywalking... fine.

    Murder? And we know without a shadow of doubt that YOU commited a crime that wasn't in self-defense... yeah. HANG THAT FRAUD.
    But he DIDN'T murder anyone.
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  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    But he DIDN'T murder anyone.
    fraud, especially on a high level, can ruin lives, and affect a person's economic situation...and you should know more than anyone how much that can affect a person's life.

    imagine that a person can't pay for medical bills because they were directly/indirectly involved. yes, we should not assume that it didn't affect anyone's life in a serious way. people sometimes make rash decisions (e.g. suicide) due to financial situations. at times taking their loved ones with them...for whatever logic.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    But he DIDN'T murder anyone.
    Yes he did. He may not have killed anyone directly but his actions did result in the death of at least one person. Actions have consequences and when you're that big, you affect thousands, if not, millions of people.

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Yes he did. He may not have killed anyone directly but his actions did result in the death of at least one person. Actions have consequences and when you're that big, you affect thousands, if not, millions of people.
    How far do you trace the butterfly effect and hold consequence to people?

  9. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    How far do you trace the butterfly effect and hold consequence to people?
    Three degrees. Your actions may not affect someone directly but the actions people take as a result of your actions are on you.

  10. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    But he DIDN'T murder anyone.
    I believe his comment was in response to you saying no one should ever be put to death, not whether or not that specific individual should be put to death.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


  11. #35
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    let's be honest here, ALL billionaires (worldwide) should be put to death. it would resolve...ALL of our world problems.

  12. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    I believe his comment was in response to you saying no one should ever be put to death, not whether or not that specific individual should be put to death.
    Oh okay, I misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    let's be honest here, ALL billionaires (worldwide) should be put to death. it would resolve...ALL of our world problems.
    What?

    You're probably exaggerating because not all billionaires are bad people. There some billionaires that donate money to charities and research and etc.
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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    What?

    You're probably exaggerating because not all billionaires are bad people. There some billionaires that donate money to charities and research and etc.
    LMAO no they're all bad and are the root of all problems in this world.

    some more directly bad than others, yes. some have some more damage knowingly than others, yes. but they're all bad in the end and the problem.

  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    LMAO no they're all bad and are the root of all problems in this world.

    some more directly bad than others, yes. some have some more damage knowingly than others, yes. but they're all bad in the end and the problem.
    Do you think they're bad because they are unethical or because you believe the world's wealth should be spread around more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Do you think they're bad because they are unethical or because you believe the world's wealth should be spread around more?
    unethical would be the nicest way to describe their undoings.

    i don't care about spreading it, i'm about not stealing it from the poor and the middle class, the upper class, pretty much everyone.

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  17. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Do you think they're bad because they are unethical or because you believe the world's wealth should be spread around more?
    Put simply. You don't become a billionaire unless you've screwed people over.

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  19. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Put simply. You don't become a billionaire unless you've screwed people over.
    and we know that some rich asshole at BP ended up making the descision to drill oil in the gulf, knowing that it was risky. how many lives has it already destroyed and killed and how many it will in the future. we don't think about these things because it's not direct. we need to change the way we think. that should be considered mass murder.


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  21. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and we know that some rich asshole at BP ended up making the descision to drill oil in the gulf, knowing that it was risky. how many lives has it already destroyed and killed and how many it will in the future. we don't think about these things because it's not direct. we need to change the way we think. that should be considered mass murder.
    As I'm sure you are aware, BP isn't the only company drilling in the GoM. There are many companies out there that you never hear about because they haven't had the issue BP did on the Macondo well.

    That incident occurred not because BP made the decision to drill in the deep water of the GoM, but because there were people involved in the actual drilling operation that made bad decisions and/or did poor work.

    Had everything been done properly, either the incident wouldn't have occurred at all or it would have been so minor we never would have heard about it.
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  22. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    As I'm sure you are aware, BP isn't the only company drilling in the GoM. There are many companies out there that you never hear about because they haven't had the issue BP did on the Macondo well.

    That incident occurred not because BP made the decision to drill in the deep water of the GoM, but because there were people involved in the actual drilling operation that made bad decisions and/or did poor work.

    Had everything been done properly, either the incident wouldn't have occurred at all or it would have been so minor we never would have heard about it.
    ok but even then, it's important for everyone that is involved to have some sort of audits to make sure that the drilling is being done correctly. we can't prove that they knew about the issue or not but it's clear that they didn't care about it enough because it wasn't going to affect their lives...well other than a large sum of money that will cut into their paychecks/bonuses.

    but i don't want to single out BP, i'm saying, all companies that have no respect for human or animal kind. i'm not a big fan of corporations and the more i learn about them, the more i feel that there needs to be a system that gets these $#@!ers out of lobbying for candidates or pushing for laws that ultimately protect their interests, not of the people.

    americans are being $#@!ed by these corporations and no one gives a $#@!. you're telling me this isn't true? wherever you look, the produce/meat (manufacturing of) industry, insurance, drug...you name it, it's all $#@!ed up.

  23. #44
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    Speaking of BP. I have worked for BP at at BP refinery in Hull (Saltend) and they were always rigorous with health an safety and risk assessments and nothing could be done unless it is thoroughly investigated first to find out what can go wrong and how to prevent it.
    So to say they were blatantly negligent I find very hard to believe.
    Last edited by keefy; 06-20-2014 at 22:37.

  24. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Speaking of BP. I have worked for BP at at BP refinery in Hull (Saltend) and they were always rigorous with health an safety and risk assessments and nothing could be done unless it is thoroughly investigated first to find out what can go wrong and how to prevent it.
    yeah, they all seem rigorous on a smaller scale. they all claim that they did not realize that it was going to happen or that it was dangerous for the consumers.

    again, i'm not singling out this incident. i don't know the facts here but there have been too many times where these corporations get caught, pay the fine and everyone moves on. no one cares about the people that were affected or will be affected for years to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    ok but even then, it's important for everyone that is involved to have some sort of audits to make sure that the drilling is being done correctly. we can't prove that they knew about the issue or not but it's clear that they didn't care about it enough because it wasn't going to affect their lives...well other than a large sum of money that will cut into their paychecks/bonuses.
    There are audits performed, both by the energy company and regulators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but i don't want to single out BP, i'm saying, all companies that have no respect for human or animal kind. i'm not a big fan of corporations and the more i learn about them, the more i feel that there needs to be a system that gets these $#@!ers out of lobbying for candidates or pushing for laws that ultimately protect their interests, not of the people.
    Lobbying isn't ALL bad, but some aspects certainly are. Hell, we have a small business with about 50 employees and we lobby through PAC's and have actually helped make some positive changes made to our industry that benefit everyone.

    When a company is intentionally malicious, they deserve to be punished, no doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    americans are being $#@!ed by these corporations and no one gives a $#@!. you're telling me this isn't true? wherever you look, the produce/meat (manufacturing of) industry, insurance, drug...you name it, it's all $#@!ed up.
    I never said we aren't getting screwed over by some very large corporations, I just don't think they all deserve to be lumped together. There are some very good companies that you never hear about because they're doing things the right way, they don't deserve to be looked down upon just because they're big or in the same business as some of the "bad" ones.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


  26. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    There are audits performed, both by the energy company and regulators.
    and they all failed. interesting.

    Lobbying isn't ALL bad, but some aspects certainly are. Hell, we have a small business with about 50 employees and we lobby through PAC's and have actually helped make some positive changes made to our industry that benefit everyone.

    When a company is intentionally malicious, they deserve to be punished, no doubt.
    there are enough corrupt lobbyists for me to make this statement. pushed by corporations, rich people. to the point where they control our lives and this country, not the people and this cannot be fixed.

    I never said we aren't getting screwed over by some very large corporations, I just don't think they all deserve to be lumped together. There are some very good companies that you never hear about because they're doing things the right way, they don't deserve to be looked down upon just because they're big or in the same business as some of the "bad" ones.
    i didn't say they were all the same, i said some were less bad in an indirect way, some were more serious and bad.

    like coca-cola is not bad but they should know about all the ingredients they put in their products before they put them out. they don't, it causes diseases and until they are called out on it, they don't care. so many companies knowingly put ingredients in their products, knowing that they aren't sure how healthy it is...just so that later on they can use ignorance as a reason.

    they don't care about people, they care about revenues first. something very wrong with that and shows capitalism at its extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and they all failed. interesting.
    It happens. Not saying no one screwed up and shouldn't be held accountable, but to expect a flawless track record isn't realistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    there are enough corrupt lobbyists for me to make this statement. pushed by corporations, rich people. to the point where they control our lives and this country, not the people and this cannot be fixed.
    The system could certainly use some tweaking, but I don't think it needs to be discontinued altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i didn't say they were all the same, i said some were less bad in an indirect way, some were more serious and bad.

    like coca-cola is not bad but they should know about all the ingredients they put in their products before they put them out. they don't, it causes diseases and until they are called out on it, they don't care. so many companies knowingly put ingredients in their products, knowing that they aren't sure how healthy it is...just so that later on they can use ignorance as a reason.

    they don't care about people, they care about revenues first. something very wrong with that and shows capitalism at its extreme.
    There are plenty of examples of corporations that have negatively impacted consumers as well as other that impact us in a good way.

    Certainly are pros and cons of Capitalism, but I'll take it over economic and political systems.
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  28. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by weskurtz81 View Post
    It happens. Not saying no one screwed up and shouldn't be held accountable, but to expect a flawless track record isn't realistic.
    i don't know the exact details but i had read that they knew of the risks but still drilled. anyway i don't want to be fixated on one example, we both know there are countless others.

    The system could certainly use some tweaking, but I don't think it needs to be discontinued altogether.
    for smaller stuff, i'm sure the system is fair and just. though it's odd that some stuff goes through FDA that even the most common of people should not trust. that's my problem. that's where i think it's corrupt.

    There are plenty of examples of corporations that have negatively impacted consumers as well as other that impact us in a good way.

    Certainly are pros and cons of Capitalism, but I'll take it over economic and political systems.
    i don't know how that is an excuse for what it has become.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i don't know the exact details but i had read that they knew of the risks but still drilled. anyway i don't want to be fixated on one example, we both know there are countless others.
    The report is online, it's about 250-300 pages. My only point in all of this is that drilling no matter where you do it is risky. The only way we will prevent blowouts with 100% certainty is to not drill at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    for smaller stuff, i'm sure the system is fair and just. though it's odd that some stuff goes through FDA that even the most common of people should not trust. that's my problem. that's where i think it's corrupt.
    I'm sure some level of corruption exists.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i don't know how that is an excuse for what it has become.
    I think we may be speaking past each other here. I'm not making excuses, clearly it has its problems like every economic and political system, but if I had to pick one of the many systems and try to fix that imperfect system, I would choose ours. At no time would I suggest everything here is A-OK, we certainly have our work cutout for us, but I think it's worth trying to fix.
    "you are both the product and the architect of your environment"


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