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  1. #76
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    i'm mostly interested in their first party games, although not enough of it but still they generally look interesting.

    i think the saddest thing wouldn't be if Nintendo dropped out of the console race someday, the saddest thing would be if they stopped making games after they dropped out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i'm sure Wii U is a lot of fun and i can certainly understand your choice but PS4 just has a different experience that Wii U cannot give (and vice versa) so it's difficult to compare. i wouldn't mind having a Wii U besides my PS4. the two are very different experiences i'm sure.
    I definitely want a PS4, I am just waiting a little longer and hopefully they will fix somethings in an update. I do believe having a PS4 and a WiiU is a great thing. Like you said they have different experiences and they would work well together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i'm mostly interested in their first party games, although not enough of it but still they generally look interesting.

    i think the saddest thing wouldn't be if Nintendo dropped out of the console race someday, the saddest thing would be if they stopped making games after they dropped out.
    Personally I'd rather see them fold as a HW company and focus only on SW Dev of games for other systems. I'd love to buy many of their games on the PS4. Mario lineup, Link, etc.

    We own a Wii and it hasn't been turned on in probably the last 2yrs, and maybe once or twice a year for the 2 years preceding that. Haven't bought a new game for it since at least 2009.

    The controller sucked booty, the graphics were crap.

    FF to Wii U era. I looked at the spec's, and I was totally under-impressed. They didn't even try to put out a decent performer for the launch era. It was barely better than PS3/360 in terms of power.

    I liked they controller pad w/ it's own screen, and the fact that it was going back to Pad Control Gaming, but I knew that PS4 and X1 were around the corner, and I'd have another system sitting collecting dust.

    While I like those games and would purchase a number of them, they are not my focus and I've moved on to the PS4/X1 Generation.

    Nintendo staying one generation behind in terms of performance level to make 'cheaper' consoles is not a winning strategy. They hit success with the Wii fun factor but that major market already has a Wii and the majority are not periodic console buyers. They haven't bought into Wii U, which probably had a better year 1 console launch w/o a new console competitor.

    I was close to buying one, because I wanted to play Mario and Link in HD on the big screen. That said, now that I have a PS4, I'll not be buying one. I'm more likely to buy an X1 sometime after the Halo Collection is complete and some of the X1 exclusives are in the bargin bins.

    Basically there's enough interesting games out there, that I won't be buying a Wii U just to play those titles which I am nostalgic for. And when I say nostalgic, I mean it. The NES was the first system I bought with my own money with money from my first couple of paychecks. I played the $#@! out of Mario and Link.



  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ427 View Post
    Personally I'd rather see them fold as a HW company and focus only on SW Dev of games for other systems. I'd love to buy many of their games on the PS4. Mario lineup, Link, etc.

    We own a Wii and it hasn't been turned on in probably the last 2yrs, and maybe once or twice a year for the 2 years preceding that. Haven't bought a new game for it since at least 2009.

    The controller sucked booty, the graphics were crap.

    FF to Wii U era. I looked at the spec's, and I was totally under-impressed. They didn't even try to put out a decent performer for the launch era. It was barely better than PS3/360 in terms of power.

    I liked they controller pad w/ it's own screen, and the fact that it was going back to Pad Control Gaming, but I knew that PS4 and X1 were around the corner, and I'd have another system sitting collecting dust.

    While I like those games and would purchase a number of them, they are not my focus and I've moved on to the PS4/X1 Generation.

    Nintendo staying one generation behind in terms of performance level to make 'cheaper' consoles is not a winning strategy. They hit success with the Wii fun factor but that major market already has a Wii and the majority are not periodic console buyers. They haven't bought into Wii U, which probably had a better year 1 console launch w/o a new console competitor.

    I was close to buying one, because I wanted to play Mario and Link in HD on the big screen. That said, now that I have a PS4, I'll not be buying one. I'm more likely to buy an X1 sometime after the Halo Collection is complete and some of the X1 exclusives are in the bargin bins.

    Basically there's enough interesting games out there, that I won't be buying a Wii U just to play those titles which I am nostalgic for. And when I say nostalgic, I mean it. The NES was the first system I bought with my own money with money from my first couple of paychecks. I played the $#@! out of Mario and Link.
    i said the same thing about SW and i got attacked lol. people get offended.

    i think their strategy is fine, just that their execution is poor. sure, i would find value in the console if there were enough games on it. they are expecting the fad to keep going...how stupid of them? yeah, the ocean apparently isn't that big, everyone that wanted a Wii, got one, they don't want to upgrade it, they don't even want to buy anything other than maybe Wii Sports 2 at best since they are familiar with Wii Sports.

    this is where Nintendo marketing failed hard. they didn't understand "why" they were successful. they just thought, oh, put out a new hardware, looks alien, profit!

    that's not how it works. their Wii U idea wasn't that bad either, except that it's kinda bad actually lol, for the casuals. for the hardcore, it's awesome.

    my problem with them is that they don't take risks. they are making some games for the Wii U, the tried and true series. they don't bring anything new to the table that would grab the industry's attention. i'm sure they do bring new stuff that's good but it seems that if it's not Mario or Zelda then it's a cult hit.

    even some of their Mario games are cult hits. they aren't mainstream, they don't grab people. Wii Sports did...back in the day. everyone wanted to play it. i did too until i realized how silly it was lol but nonethless fun.

    i think they can get away with weak hardware IF they add enough value to the product. which they don't. that's the issue.

    but their next idea isn't bad. i wouldn't mind having a console that plays handheld games as well. i think that is far more sustainable than whatever they're doing at the moment. it will give them a lot more content and freedom. let's see how that goes.

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    I agree if they had something that would pull all the casual gamers back into buying a new console, that they didn't need to have the power, but the fact is they didn't have a new wizbang feature like the motion control was for the Wii. It was a great new feature for the casual gamer crowd which has grown old for most. I think they thought the Tablet Controller was that item. It obviously wasn't a system seller for that crowd.

    So w/o out that 'wizbang' feature IMHO they need to at least have somewhat decent performance that would entice third parties to want to develop for the platform in order to have a library of much wider scope to bring over more core gamers. So I see it as them doubly missing the mark.

    And while I like the idea of a console that plays portable games as well. I'm not sure it's going any further than the PS Vita TV in the US market. IMHO, this isn't the 'wizbang' feature that the casual gamer wants either.



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    The following is not directly or specifically related to future game consoles, but now I am absolutely confident this technology will be a major part of what gives PS5 and the next Xbox much greater performance in terms of memory bandwidth (and overall graphics/compute performance), keep power-usage similar to today, while keeping costs down.

    3D chip/die stacking, Through-Silicon-Vias, stacked DRAMs on GPU / APU etc, on the AMD side of the fence, not just Nvidia with its future Pascal GPU and now-delayed Volta GPU generations.

    AMD is very much in this game, too.

    Some of this is pretty technical but I'm certain the more tech-savvy people here on the PSU forums will be able to understand this stuff.

    http://www.microarch.org/micro46/files/keynote1.pdf

    These ideas are old ones in the silicon industry, but have not been possible to actually do, for real products, until recently.

    Here's a few choice slides from the presentation that are not overly technical.



























    These future stacked GPU, APU, SoC chips should first start hitting the market in 2016, from both Nvidia & AMD. Assuming that happens with consumer products during 2016 and 2017, there seems little doubt that 3D chip stacking and stacked DRAM and thus, much higher bandwidth for graphics, will happen with future game consoles of 2018-2020, including any potential PlayStation 5.

    Nothing terribly revolutionary here, just the natural march of progress, and probably leading to much better looking console games that are in 4K Ultra HD.
    Last edited by parallax scroll; 06-24-2014 at 21:07.

  7. #82
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    $#@! is all this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    $#@! is all this!
    In a nutshell, it means putting *everything* that goes into making a hardware platform, all together on a single chip, including a lot of the RAM. It's really all about bandwidth, it will allow for a lot more stuff to get pumped out to our TVs (HD or Ultra HD) and monitors at higher resolutions and framerates than would otherwise be possible.

    You can have all the CPU and graphics power in the world, but it does no good unless all the information can get to where it needs to go (within a single chip, instead of a board or card) very, very quickly, and ultimately, to your screen.

    It is a FAR better solution than what Microsoft did with putting a relatively small amount of ESRAM memory on XBone's APU.


    I do not claim to even begin to understand exactly how this tech works, but I do realize it *will* be important for game platforms, of all kinds, if they are to be a major improvement over what we have today.
    Last edited by parallax scroll; 06-24-2014 at 23:42.

  9. #84
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    Nintendo needs to remake some of their classic NES games and release them for mobile devices. They should also make a controller that your smart phone can snap into. Make it look like an NES controller and sell the games on the APP store. They did awesome with the original Wii, but the Wii U is a turd.

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    Nintendo may or may not offer certain legacy games from NES, SNES, GBA, etc on iOS/Android mobile devices.

    Depends on just how much pressure Nintendo gets from their investors. We'll see.

    That said, you can almost take it to the bank that the next dedicated video game platforms we will see released in the coming few years, will be from Nintendo.

    They are not abandoning hardware, at least not yet. Nintendo will go at least one more cycle with hardware, and if they fail again, and only then, will they become a third party developer for other consoles, PC, mobile etc.

    A Nintendo handheld, the successor to the 3DS, will probably be released in two different form factors (ala current mobile devices) probably early 2016 and a home game console (maybe Fall 2016) which will be Nintendo's 7th console:

    NES --> Super NES --> Nintendo 64 --> GameCube --> Wii --> Wii U --> Next Console

    Because the handheld(s) and console will probably have the same development structure, programming method and hardware architecture, because that is what Iwata said they were working on, but different levels of power/performance, Nintendo and devs that sign on to be third parties should be able to make one game that runs on both handheld(s) and console, with the only real difference being like that of Windows PC or iOS or Android games that can run on the same architecture but according to the individual hardware. Different resolutions, frame rates, texture sizes, amount of anti-aliasing, level of effects and so on.

    It won't be complicated for gamers because they will most likely not be able to change any settings on games, only the Nintendo device they choose to play any given game on.


    That will allow Nintendo and other devs / publishers to create & release more games and faster, with fewer software droughts, which have plagued Nintendo so many times in the past, and is a problem with Wii U right now because it's a totally different architecture from 3DS.
    Last edited by parallax scroll; 06-25-2014 at 01:14.

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    Ubisoft chief thinks new consoles will be here quicker than last time

    Next-gen consoles already? Ubisoft CEO says Microsoft and Sony will 'wait a lot less than' 8 years this time around



    By: Anthony Garreffa

    Ubisoft is taking heavy fire right now, especially from us here at TweakTown, where we're bringing you all the latest in gaming news. We've already told you that Far Cry 4 on PC on Ultra High settings will be no different from next-gen consoles, that The Division is locked at 30FPS on consoles, and that Ubisoft seems to have deliberately gimped Watch Dogs on PC, holding back some graphics. How could Ubisoft dig any deeper?


    Ubisoft's CEO, Yves Guillemot, during an interview with CVG, talked about Microsoft and Sony releasing new consoles - yes, not the 'next-gen' Xbox One and PS4, but entirely new machines. Guillemot was asked about the PS4 and Xbox One sales, and whether he thought the new consoles would remain solely for the 'core' gamer, to which he responded: "Both machines started fast, because gamers had been waiting for eight years for them. People were really anxious about having something different".

    He continued: "I hope this gen will go more quickly also. My feeling is that because PC is growing fast and lots of people are trying to pick up the business on TV, that will put pressure on [platform holders] to not wait eight years next time. I think they will wait a lot less than that. First they need to make sure that they can sell the current machines at a lower price, so that there are enough games sold and enough extra content so that their platform is profitable. This will help the market".

    source: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/38552/...ime/index.html

    original source: http://www.computerandvideogames.com...ves-guillemot/

    My guesses are:

    Next Nintendo console in 2016 or 2017 (thus Wii U gets only 4 or 5 years)

    Next Xbox in 2018 or 2019 (thus XBone gets 5 or 6 years)

    PS5 in 2019 (thus PS4 gets 6 years)

  12. #87
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    i'm definitely positive that MS will try to come out earlier because they want to undermine Sony's efforts and this will also minimize their losses and give them an edge (needless to say).

    all they gotta do is sweeten the deal and not act like and design the console like they did this time around. keep it to the point and low priced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parallax scroll View Post
    The following is not directly or specifically related to future game consoles, but now I am absolutely confident this technology will be a major part of what gives PS5 and the next Xbox much greater performance in terms of memory bandwidth (and overall graphics/compute performance), keep power-usage similar to today, while keeping costs down.

    3D chip/die stacking, Through-Silicon-Vias, stacked DRAMs on GPU / APU etc, on the AMD side of the fence, not just Nvidia with its future Pascal GPU and now-delayed Volta GPU generations.

    AMD is very much in this game, too.

    Some of this is pretty technical but I'm certain the more tech-savvy people here on the PSU forums will be able to understand this stuff.

    http://www.microarch.org/micro46/files/keynote1.pdf

    These ideas are old ones in the silicon industry, but have not been possible to actually do, for real products, until recently.

    Here's a few choice slides from the presentation that are not overly technical.



























    These future stacked GPU, APU, SoC chips should first start hitting the market in 2016, from both Nvidia & AMD. Assuming that happens with consumer products during 2016 and 2017, there seems little doubt that 3D chip stacking and stacked DRAM and thus, much higher bandwidth for graphics, will happen with future game consoles of 2018-2020, including any potential PlayStation 5.

    Nothing terribly revolutionary here, just the natural march of progress, and probably leading to much better looking console games that are in 4K Ultra HD.
    While it's plausible, it's been being discussed, planned, tested for over at least 2 decades now. Ever since I entered the Semiconductor industry. While we're closer today than we've been in the past, it's only recently that we've even started to have MCM (Multi-chip modules) being mass produced. Those are here and now, and in use in this generation. I see them becoming more predominate. That said, die stacking high speed DRAMs I don't see happening, at least for a long time, primarily because of thermal dissipation issues. You're affectively multiplying the heat that needs to be dissipated for the same area of the chip times the number of layers you stack (technically the power per die will drop some, say 15%, so it's 3.4x the amount of power to dissipate in the same area as oppose to 4x for 4 dies stacked vs 4 dies separate) . And the reality is we push the thermal limits of the chip packages and compounds to the max as it is. Unless you want to really reduce the speedgrades for the cost of larger memories in the same space, this isn't going to be feasible. The reality is we want are cake and we want to eat it to, so the price to pay is more space. It's a reasonable price.
    Last edited by TAZ427; 06-26-2014 at 21:12.



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    I think Sony / Microsoft will launch close together unless their visions are completely different from one another.

    Or it could be improvements to the current hardware and the OS version number is going to start to matter a lot more (meaning newer games won't work on older hardware, so people will need to upgrade etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ427 View Post
    While it's plausible, it's been being discussed, planned, tested for over at least 2 decades now. Ever since I entered the Semiconductor industry. While we're closer today than we've been in the past, it's only recently that we've even started to have MCM (Multi-chip modules) being mass produced. Those are here and now, and in use in this generation. I see them becoming more predominate.
    Indeed.

    I remember the Wii U's triple core 'Espresso' CPU, the 'Latte' GPU along with the GPU's 32 MB (or 34 MB?) eDRAM are together on an MCM.





    sources:
    http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interv...iu/console/0/0


    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/1...module-design/

    http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/13...ibmamd-cpu-gpu

    That said, die stacking high speed DRAMs I don't see happening, at least for a long time, primarily because of thermal dissipation issues. You're affectively multiplying the heat that needs to be dissipated for the same area of the chip times the number of layers you stack (technically the power per die will drop some, say 15%, so it's 3.4x the amount of power to dissipate in the same area as oppose to 4x for 4 dies stacked vs 4 dies separate) . And the reality is we push the thermal limits of the chip packages and compounds to the max as it is. Unless you want to really reduce the speedgrades for the cost of larger memories in the same space, this isn't going to be feasible. The reality is we want are cake and we want to eat it to, so the price to pay is more space. It's a reasonable price.
    Maybe that is why Nvidia recently took their Volta GPU architecture ( w/ ~1 TB/sec bandwidth that Jen-Hsun announced at GTC 2013) off their latest roadmap (Volta apparently not canceled though), and announced the Pascal architecture instead, which would now be slated to arrive after Maxwell but before Volta.

    So I wonder, since massively complex and hot running SoCs / APUs with multiple stacked layers are not likely to happen with Xbox Next and PS5, perhaps then (and I'm just asking here) a very modest amount of stacked DRAM and very few layers (the minimum #) could be plausible for a console (PS5) that get's developed during the 2015-2018 time and does not get publically revealed & launched until early & late 2019 ?

    For the sole purpose of still being able to go well beyond the current PS4's 176 GB/sec bandwidth provided by its 8GB GDDR5 memory @ 5500 MHz across a 256-Bit bus. Even if PS5's bandwidth ends up being well short of Nvidia's lofty goal of 1 TB/sec for the Volta GPU.
    Last edited by parallax scroll; 06-26-2014 at 23:36.

  16. #91
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    ZzZzZzZ......huh? what? Son of a $#@!! All of this bull$#@! has woken me up.

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    PS5 will be largely shaped by what game developers need/want. Cerny will have the key role in helping that happen with the most performance & features for the cost to Sony, Sony's HW partners and consumers.

    Just as it was with PS4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parallax scroll View Post
    Indeed.

    I remember the Wii U's triple core 'Espresso' CPU, the 'Latte' GPU along with the GPU's 32 MB (or 34 MB?) eDRAM are together on an MCM.





    sources:
    http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interv...iu/console/0/0


    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/1...module-design/

    http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/13...ibmamd-cpu-gpu



    Maybe that is why Nvidia recently took their Volta GPU architecture ( w/ ~1 TB/sec bandwidth that Jen-Hsun announced at GTC 2013) off their latest roadmap (Volta apparently not canceled though), and announced the Pascal architecture instead, which would now be slated to arrive after Maxwell but before Volta.

    So I wonder, since massively complex and hot running SoCs / APUs with multiple stacked layers are not likely to happen with Xbox Next and PS5, perhaps then (and I'm just asking here) a very modest amount of stacked DRAM and very few layers (the minimum #) could be plausible for a console (PS5) that get's developed during the 2015-2018 time and does not get publically revealed & launched until early & late 2019 ?

    For the sole purpose of still being able to go well beyond the current PS4's 176 GB/sec bandwidth provided by its 8GB GDDR5 memory @ 5500 MHz across a 256-Bit bus. Even if PS5's bandwidth ends up being well short of Nvidia's lofty goal of 1 TB/sec for the Volta GPU.
    That's plausible, but I think realistically, it would be industry driven and not Console driven. For external DRAM, the consoles actually have a lot more room than PCs and graphics card do, so spacial density of memories isn't a big concern for them, and they're not likely to lead this push.

    That said, this is really about on chip (not on die but on chip) high speed memories. IMO if this is going to be driven, it's going to be driven out of the Laptop and Tablet markets. They're the ones needing smaller more compact components, and at the potential cost of lower performance to save on power consumption, which would actually play a bit into the hands of die-stacking if the power could be sufficiently reduced.

    I don't believe console makers care if the APU is physically large, it's a significantly smaller than other large components such as optical drives, HDDs, etc.

    Sony did a great job this gen making a very tight package, with no thermal issues. MS made a bulky package that upon scrutiny one will note they have a ton of wasted space inside that's just dead air (and still used a power brick - but I'm not going into that discussion.) The point is, that both of these could have used a physically much larger chip package w/o issues (given the same amount of thermal dissipation needed) Die stacking wouldn't have bought them anything this generation, and unless the industry is demanding it, I don't think it's going to evolve.



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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ427 View Post
    Sony did a great job this gen making a very tight package, with no thermal issues. MS made a bulky package that upon scrutiny one will note they have a ton of wasted space inside that's just dead air (and still used a power brick - but I'm not going into that discussion.) The point is, that both of these could have used a physically much larger chip package w/o issues (given the same amount of thermal dissipation needed) Die stacking wouldn't have bought them anything this generation, and unless the industry is demanding it, I don't think it's going to evolve.
    that's what i said. the funny thing is that a few people really really believed that having a bigger case meant the heat could be desipated easier and it would be easier to keep the console cool. it's about keeping it compact enough so that the heat can move quickly...rather than staying inside the box.

    i also find it funny when people buy bulky electronics when we're in 2014. it's not the 80s guys, move on.

    i'm all about efficiency and minimalist designs. that's why i've always like Nintendo's console designs. even though they are also low powered. Wii took like 15W to run....ermergerd!

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    I believe based on architecture they will be out sooner this time.

    In the meantime I'm going to enjoy this one for everything it's worth.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ427 View Post
    That's plausible, but I think realistically, it would be industry driven and not Console driven.
    I agree 100%

    Ever since Nvidia announced Volta early last year, I've always thought that stacked DRAM would be, and have to be, an industry-driven thing, and only *possibly* adopted for use in the generation of consoles that come after PS4/Xbone. That is if, and only if, stacked DRAM is done with a wide range of consumer products that are mass market & successful. Anything from high-end PC GPUs/graphic cards to small mobile devices, iPhones & Android phones, and things in-between such as tablets and laptops.

    If such products start launching in 2015/2016 and stacked DRAM becomes widespread, the next logical conclusion would be adoption into the next generation home consoles. Not unlike how programmable shaders showed up in high-end PC cards (i.e. GeForce 3) then soon after were in the original XBox (NV2A GPU). Then more & more advanced PC GPUs, i.e.GeForce 4, Radeon 9700, etc) From there, programmable shaders became a major part of the following generation of consoles, Xbox 360's Xenos & PS3's RSX GPUs.

    If stacked DRAMs and eventually, later, 3D chip stacking becomes widespread, the migration path from high-end PC to mass market consoles should follow, like shaders did. In stages though. Not everything will happen at once with the PS5 era consoles. Not unlike how we've had three generations of Xbox with more & more advanced shaders.

    Programmable shaders and stacked DRAM / 2.5D & 3D chip stacking is most likely not the best parallel to draw but it's the one that came to mind.

    It will most likely be a very different situation than embedded memory, EDRAM. The first consumer product that I know of to use it, was PlayStation 2, with its 4 MB EDRAM on the Graphics Synthesizer. Completed by 1999, PS2 released in March 2000 in Japan.

    Next was Nintendo's Project Dolphin (GameCube), its ArtX-designed (acquired by ATi) Flipper GPU used 3+ MB of embedded 1T-SRAM from MoSys. Microsoft saw how well the overall concept of GameCube worked (IBM PowerPC CPU, the ArtX/ATi GPU with embedded memory) thus that was an influence on Microsoft when they decided to go with ATi for Xbox 360's GPU, in addition to getting a much better deal with ATi than they had with Nvidia on the original Xbox.

    Don't want to go further off-topic, but I believe future game consoles will always be adopting successful technology from successful products that are industry-wide.

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