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  1. #51
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    let me reiterate: "in-game visuals", "in-engine", "in-engine" "real game level running on a real PS4" (? lol).

    none of that means anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    that's the point i'm trying to make. why do people care when most can't even tell the difference. why not use those resources somewhere else...that would be "way" better than just wasting those resources there.

    not to mention, with those details on the character model...and the background...i don't know how they would be able to keep some decent gameplay elements going...it's like Heavy Rain. pretty to look at but also because the game doesn't have character physics, it doesn't have much gameplay (you're a detective), you don't do much except walk to pre-deteremined routes/triggers/events.

    there's no possible way that they can have those details and have a proper game...this early into the generation anyway. maybe 3-5 years from now. not this early.
    Naughty Dog games are not like Quantic Dream games. Naughty Dog games are better.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black View Post
    Naughty Dog games are not like Quantic Dream games. Naughty Dog games are better.
    my point was that if you make the in-game characters too detailed, you end up with less resources for the rest of the game. Heavy Rain in-game characters were more detailed than UC characters but since it was a detective game, they didn't need more resources for physics, gun mechanics, enemy AI etc.

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    I want to see bullet wounds with blood splattered on objects. I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a sick bastard but I want them to take it beyond what was in the last of us. I want a great hit detection system. Take it beyond what was in max payne 3 and make them react to that area of their body. If I take a knee out, make them limp or crawl. If I shoot their hand, make it no good to hold an assault rifle. You see where I'm going.

    Destiny and Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor is all I need for the rest of the year.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    I want to see bullet wounds with blood splattered on objects. I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a sick bastard but I want them to take it beyond what was in the last of us. I want a great hit detection system. Take it beyond what was in max payne 3 and make them react to that area of their body. If I take a knee out, make them limp or crawl. If I shoot their hand, make it no good to hold an assault rifle. You see where I'm going.
    you sick bastard. where will you stop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    my point was that if you make the in-game characters too detailed, you end up with less resources for the rest of the game. Heavy Rain in-game characters were more detailed than UC characters but since it was a detective game, they didn't need more resources for physics, gun mechanics, enemy AI etc.
    I know what you said but this isn't a problem for Naughty Dog. If you're going to argue that a developer should better allocate their resources, it should be towards Quantic Dream who seem obsessed with polygons and how much they can make their game look and feel like a movie.

    Also, the PS4 is new hardware for developers. Is it wrong to expect a fantastic-looking game from Naughty Dog that has the little details and gameplay changes Two4DaMoney described in his post?
    Last edited by Metal King Slime; 06-18-2014 at 07:25.
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar!

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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black View Post
    I know what you said but this isn't a problem for Naughty Dog. If you're going to argue that a developer should better allocate their resources, it should be towards Quantic Dream who seem obsessed with polygons and how much they can make their game look and feel like a movie.
    who says it isn't a problem for Naughty Dog. They haven't done away with having different models in cutscenes as opposed to gameplay. that hasn't been done by ND yet and it's not because they can't do it, it's because it's not efficient to do it.

    pre-rendered CGI will always look better, no matter what. we're not at that stage yet where we can deliver that kind of fidelity. what they're doing with UC4 (or i should say, not doing) is that they're not doing any more pre-rendered stuff in their cutscenes. that does not mean that they still can't beaf up the cutscenes, especially character details. that has been done for ages.

    realtime, in-game, in-engine means nothing. photomode in GT5 is "realtime", "in-game", "in-engine". it doesn't necessarily mean that it will look like that in gameplay.

    Also, the PS4 is new hardware for developers. Is it wrong to expect a fantastic-looking game from Naughty Dog that has the little details and gameplay changes Two4DaMoney described in his post?
    nothing wrong with expecting things, i'm the first one to expect a lot out of a new hardware. but i think we should tread carefully.

    not that it matters or it's a big deal, like i said, we will have forgotten about this by the time the game comes out. no one will care whether the models in gameplay are "exactly" the same as the cutscene ones. i'll be interested to know though.

    my point is that we should be careful before we know for sure that this is what they're talking about. I know that people are asking them what we're talking about here but it's annoying when a developer doesn't actually use specific terms that would confirm it. realtime, in-game, in-engine are just buzz words, they don't mean anything. they may have meant something back in PS2 days but not since PS3. virtually "all" PS3 games had realtime/in-game/in-engine cutscenes.

    hell, they could've recreated the KZ2 target video in realtime on the PS3, doesn't mean it can do that in gameplay. i wouldn't doubt that the KZ2 video was running on a PC with supposed PS3 specs (maybe when it wasn't downgraded?) and the thing was realtime.

  8. #58
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    Sufi have you played ground zero? Now take that game and compress it into U4. If you've played the game you'll see how seamless the camera swings around from gameplay to cutscene and back to gameplay and BB's character model remains the same (1:1 with cutscene and gameplay)

    The reason why I'm telling you to compress that is because the levels are open in GZ compared to the tight levels on Uncharted games which allows ND to detail the $#@! out of there game worlds.

    The issue here is you are underestimating how powerful the ps4 is!...and how bloody talented the devs are. That's why you can't wrap your head around a game looking that good and retaining drakes high level of fidelity when the camera pulls back and the player takes control. Just look at what they did with just 512mb of memory sufi, 5...1...2! And then think about what they have to work with on the ps4, maybe then it'll start to sink in

    But not to worry the coming months will be fun


    FYI, the last of us remastered will feature character models on par with the cutscenes and the lighting will also be upgraded...now go back and check out the cutscene models. Just think about what they can accomplish with fast 5gigs of ram and an engine tailored to the ps4? And you are here worried about a measly character model? Lol I laugh

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    Last edited by YoungMullah88; 06-18-2014 at 14:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    Sufi have you played ground zero? Now take that game and compress it into U4. If you've played the game you'll see how seamless the camera swings around from gameplay to cutscene and back to gameplay and BB's character model remains the same (1:1 with cutscene and gameplay)

    The reason why I'm telling you to compress that is because the levels are open in GZ compared to the tight levels on Uncharted games which allows ND to detail the $#@! out of there game worlds.

    The issue here is you are underestimating how powerful the ps4 is!...and how bloody talented the devs are. That's why you can't wrap your head around a game looking that good and retaining drakes high level of fidelity when the camera pulls back and the player takes control. Just look at what they did with just 512mb of memory sufi, 5...1...2! And then think about what they have to work with on the ps4, maybe then it'll start to sink in

    But not to worry the coming months will be fun


    FYI, the last of us remastered will feature character models on par with the cutscenes and the lighting will also be upgraded...now go back and check out the cutscene models. Just think about what they can accomplish with fast 5gigs of ram and an engine tailored to the ps4? And you are here worried about a measly character model? Lol I laugh

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    1) MGS:GZ is not a good example because i'm not stating that the technique "can't" be done, I'm saying that judging by the visual fidelity, it's just not going to happen this soon. MGS visuals are not even close to UC4 visuals.

    2) I'm also not doubting the power of the PS4, i'm actually saying that they can pull that off, just that it will be difficult to have a lot more going on when you have character and environment that detailed. it's pointless to do that, even if they could. that's why i don't think they will do it. unless they have decided not to progress the gameplay much.

  10. #60
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    What I'm going to be amazed with is how they're shooting for 60fps while matching the graphics from The Order 1886.

    Destiny and Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor is all I need for the rest of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    What I'm going to be amazed with is how they're shooting for 60fps while matching the graphics from The Order 1886.
    matching? this is like 2x better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    matching? this is like 2x better.
    Don't look it to me.

    Destiny and Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor is all I need for the rest of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    Don't look it to me.
    ok maybe not 2x but it's definitely better looking than Order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    What I'm going to be amazed with is how they're shooting for 60fps while matching the graphics from The Order 1886.
    I agree. I also think it's amazing. Naughty Dog know their $#@!. I believe in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KungMartin90 View Post
    I agree. I also think it's amazing. Naughty Dog know their $#@!. I believe in them.
    I think people are going to claim the ps4 is maxed out after Uncharted 4 drops.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    ok maybe not 2x but it's definitely better looking than Order.
    I don't see a clear victory outside of 60fps vs 30fps.

    Lighting/shaders, clothing. Look equal to me. But it's obvious they're getting more out of the ps4 because of the choice of going 60fps.
    Last edited by Two4DaMoney; 06-18-2014 at 22:09.

    Destiny and Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor is all I need for the rest of the year.

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    Some of you guys need to keep your expectations in check!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    I think people are going to claim the ps4 is maxed out after Uncharted 4 drops.


    I don't see a clear victory outside of 60fps vs 30fps.

    Lighting/shaders, clothing. Look equal to me. But it's obvious they're getting more out of the ps4 because of the choice of going 60fps.
    it might as well be maxed out after UC4 hits. after that, we're going to see incremental improvements. meaning, UC4 is going to be what PS4 is capable of and the rest of the developers will just try and match up to it eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    it might as well be maxed out after UC4 hits. after that, we're going to see incremental improvements. meaning, UC4 is going to be what PS4 is capable of and the rest of the developers will just try and match up to it eventually.
    It's hard for me to imagine at the moment but I know it's possible to have a decent jump over Uncharted 4. ND doesn't even have a full grip over the ps4 yet. Lets say, just for an example, that the last of us 2 is 30fps. It's going to be a jump over Uncharted 4.

    Destiny and Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor is all I need for the rest of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    who says it isn't a problem for Naughty Dog. They haven't done away with having different models in cutscenes as opposed to gameplay. that hasn't been done by ND yet and it's not because they can't do it, it's because it's not efficient to do it.

    pre-rendered CGI will always look better, no matter what. we're not at that stage yet where we can deliver that kind of fidelity. what they're doing with UC4 (or i should say, not doing) is that they're not doing any more pre-rendered stuff in their cutscenes. that does not mean that they still can't beaf up the cutscenes, especially character details. that has been done for ages.

    realtime, in-game, in-engine means nothing. photomode in GT5 is "realtime", "in-game", "in-engine". it doesn't necessarily mean that it will look like that in gameplay.

    nothing wrong with expecting things, i'm the first one to expect a lot out of a new hardware. but i think we should tread carefully.

    not that it matters or it's a big deal, like i said, we will have forgotten about this by the time the game comes out. no one will care whether the models in gameplay are "exactly" the same as the cutscene ones. i'll be interested to know though.

    my point is that we should be careful before we know for sure that this is what they're talking about. I know that people are asking them what we're talking about here but it's annoying when a developer doesn't actually use specific terms that would confirm it. realtime, in-game, in-engine are just buzz words, they don't mean anything. they may have meant something back in PS2 days but not since PS3. virtually "all" PS3 games had realtime/in-game/in-engine cutscenes.

    hell, they could've recreated the KZ2 target video in realtime on the PS3, doesn't mean it can do that in gameplay. i wouldn't doubt that the KZ2 video was running on a PC with supposed PS3 specs (maybe when it wasn't downgraded?) and the thing was realtime.
    Dude, what are you even arguing about bro? You know its a TPS, so during gameplay, you dont see his face. you see the back of his head, and every one else is further from you so LODs automatically adjust what is rendered on the screen by PS4 depending on how far you are from the object/character. Cut scenes are close up so more details might get rendered.

    Due to massive upgrade in memory speed and size, the shift in LOD should not even be noticeable, it should provide the same fidelity you get in the real world when a camera zooms in to the face for close up, then pans out for a wider view, face gets smaller, you can no longer see the pores/strands of stubble on their face.

    You should just wait for the game to come out and see what it looks like instead of closing your eyes and dreaming of how much worse gameplay looks like in your head.

    Last edited by Julz; 06-18-2014 at 23:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    It's hard for me to imagine at the moment but I know it's possible to have a decent jump over Uncharted 4. ND doesn't even have a full grip over the ps4 yet. Lets say, just for an example, that the last of us 2 is 30fps. It's going to be a jump over Uncharted 4.
    i didn't disagree. but TLOU wasn't a huge improvement over UC3. that's what i mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julz View Post
    Dude are you even arguing about bro? You know its a TPS, so during gameplay, you dont see his face. you see the back of his head, and every one else is further from you so LODs automatically adjust what is rendered on the PS4 depending on how far you are from the object/character. Cut scenes are close up so more details might get rendered.

    Due to massive upgrade in memory speed and size, the shift in LOD should not even be noticeable, it should provide the same fidelity you get in the real world when a camera zooms in to the face for close up, then pans out for a wider view, face gets smaller, you can no longer see the pores/strands of stubble on their face.

    You should just wait for the game to come out and see what it looks like instead of closing your eyes and dreaming of how much worse gameplay looks like in your head.

    the LOD is exactly what i said in the beginning of this discussion. i know it can be done, but it would have to be LOD and yes, i said the same thing, it's a TPS, you don't need to see the face...well if it were a FPS, you wouldn't need to see anything.
    Last edited by Omar; 06-18-2014 at 23:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i didn't disagree. but TLOU wasn't a huge improvement over UC3. that's what i mean.



    the LOD is exactly what i said in the beginning of this discussion. i know it can be done, but it would have to be LOD and yes, i said the same thing, it's a TPS, you don't need to see the face...well if it were a FPS, you wouldn't need to see anything.
    Lol but uncharted 4 is not like uncharted 2 ->> the last of us. uncharted 4 to ps4 is like uncharted drakes fortune ->> uncharted 2....so hold on to your face because the next naughty dogs game (equivalent of uncharted 2 on the ps4) will melt faces if there initial outing is uncharted 4

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    so imagine if you spin the camera around and zoom in on drakes face, the Image should look like the trailer because the hardware and the U4 game engine by ND can quite clearly handle it easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julz View Post
    so imagine if you spin the camera around and zoom in on drakes face, the Image should look like the trailer because the hardware and the U4 game engine by ND can quite clearly handle it easily.
    That's his argument that it will not have the same amount of details while in game if you happen to zoom into Drake

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    That's his argument that it will not have the same amount of details while in game if you happen to zoom into Drake

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    If I understand the situation correctly, it will. Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    That's his argument that it will not have the same amount of details while in game if you happen to zoom into Drake

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    no actually if you go back to the original thread, this is what I said to Itachi:

    Itachi: If they are going for in engine realtime cutscenes than you don;t have time to swap higher LOD models anyway

    Me: what makes you say that they can't do that? they did that heavily in Ryse.

    so yes, my argument is the same. they can use techniques like LOD and make it work but it's not going to be the same as what you saw in the trailer. it's going to look different. LOD makes it look different. less detailed until you zoom in closer. the cutscene is showing insane details from all angles.

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