Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 52
  1. #26
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Valefor View Post
    To discriminate, I'd say it would depend on the context. You could say, for example, a Catholic church discriminates against non-Catholics by only allowing Catholics to marry in their churches. To me, that is acceptable.

    Freedom of speech - yes.

    Cut to the chase please, Sufi.
    well of course, that's why so far religious orgs were exempt if they were bona fide. so in their privacy, they can do whatever they want. discriminate all they like.

    except this is a business. it's a public business. open to ALL people. not just christians. and it's not a church, a business.

    businesses have to follow the law regardless of what the owner believes.

    that's what i'm trying to get at. there are exceptions to every rule. like personal belief...if a jewish man personally believes he should only server jewish people, that won't fly if he has a business. he has to adhere to the equality laws.

    just like freedom of speech, you can't just say whatever you want just because you have freedom of speech, you aren't 100% free to say whatever you want. there are consequences for certain things you may say.

    point being, if you are doing something that only pertains to you, you are allowed to do so, that is what religious freedom meant...it wasn't about enforcing their beliefs onto others. it was about being free to do what they wanted to do in their own vicinity. that's not what a business is. a business becomes a public entity. not private. it's privately owned, but it's a public business.

    so yes, the freedom of many outweighs the freedom of few in the U.S.

  2. #27
    Dedicated Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,386
    Rep Power
    53
    Points
    9,353 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    well of course, that's why so far religious orgs were exempt if they were bona fide. so in their privacy, they can do whatever they want. discriminate all they like.

    except this is a business. it's a public business. open to ALL people. not just christians. and it's not a church, a business.

    businesses have to follow the law regardless of what the owner believes.

    that's what i'm trying to get at. there are exceptions to every rule. like personal belief...if a jewish man personally believes he should only server jewish people, that won't fly if he has a business. he has to adhere to the equality laws.

    just like freedom of speech, you can't just say whatever you want just because you have freedom of speech, you aren't 100% free to say whatever you want. there are consequences for certain things you may say.

    point being, if you are doing something that only pertains to you, you are allowed to do so, that is what religious freedom meant...it wasn't about enforcing their beliefs onto others. it was about being free to do what they wanted to do in their own vicinity. that's not what a business is. a business becomes a public entity. not private. it's privately owned, but it's a public business.

    so yes, the freedom of many outweighs the freedom of few in the U.S.
    The US Supreme Court disagrees with you, so the law is quite clear - your inherited liberty remains intact.

  3. #28
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Valefor View Post
    The US Supreme Court disagrees with you, so the law is quite clear - your inherited liberty remains intact.
    it's a new precedence, doesn't mean that's what it was meant to be. it's going against what the constitution states.

  4. #29
    Dedicated Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,386
    Rep Power
    53
    Points
    9,353 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    it's a new precedence, doesn't mean that's what it was meant to be. it's going against what the constitution states.
    Don't be so willing to drop your individual rights, Sufi - they have their beginnings in the Magna Carta from nearly 1000 years ago - of which a copy sits beside the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Such rights have been fought for, and are not enjoyed universally.

  5. #30
    Forum Sage

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    31
    Posts
    8,526
    Rep Power
    104
    Points
    2,956 (0 Banked)
    This was to be expected and I'm not surprised in the least that the SCOTUS ruled in this manner. After all, it ruled that corporations are legally people back in 2006. It was only a matter of time before corporations would exert their "person-hood" rights. For what it's worth though, I do think this is a violation of the 1st Amendment in that a corporation is not a living breathing person under admiralty law, which is the real law that governs the corporation of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. (I'm not yelling, That is how corporations have to be spelled under admiralty law. In all caps.)

  6. #31
    Supreme Veteran
    keefy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Sock Gap
    Posts
    18,198
    Rep Power
    129
    Points
    66,528 (0 Banked)
    Items Gran Turismo 5Michelle MarshDoomid SoftwareCommodore 64Metal Gear Solid
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Might it be slippery slope and open up other means to exempt people not applying to certain laws due to religious reasons?

  7. #32
    Miqo'te Bard
    Yuuichi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    8,174
    Rep Power
    77
    Points
    17,807 (0 Banked)
    Items New User TitleProtect yourselfFull Metal AlchemistFangDark Souls CoverDemons Souls CoverBattlefield 3Title StyleUser name style
    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Might it be slippery slope and open up other means to exempt people not applying to certain laws due to religious reasons?
    Actually many states have tried that, they called it "the religious freedom" act or something.

    I see this as them striking back for being pushed to compromise their own beliefs in favor of what we dem neutral (forcing a church minister to preform a gay marriage, he may have different beliefs but you are just as bad, in fact worse for trying to force them to do it, look in the mirror and you will see you are what you hate).

    We always say we should all be open and respect each other but from what I have seen the past few years that means respect what I believe or you are wrong and *insert label here*(in terms of beliefs and religions)
    I have twitter to https://twitter.com/GamerYuichi , Also started youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMu7yRGCz8QrTyxaNVR3Tqw I don't always twitch, but when I can you can find my noobness http://www.twitch.tv/yuichimccry,




  8. #33
    Administrator and PSU Technical Manager
    Christopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warner Robins, GA
    Age
    44
    Posts
    8,712
    Rep Power
    112
    Points
    74,246 (1,010 Banked)
    Items Death Note LAtlusVitaPS3 FatMetal Gear Solid 4Naughty Dog360 SlimGuerrilla GamesApple
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i'm gonna have to disagree with you here. they aren't saying people have to use the pill, it's there, an option. what HL is saying is that they can't have the option (in other words, they won't pay for it).

    i don't see anything wrong with covering a pill, just as not anything wrong with covering a pregnancy. both are imo two sides of a coin.

    what christians (and i say christians because they seem to be the majority and the only ones fighting this) need to understand that this isn't a christian country anymore...and it never was (maybe had christian influence) and the laws aren't based off christianity.

    freedom of religion pertains to the individuals, not everyone else that surround individuals. you can't say, well, i'm this and this and i can't wear pants because my religion states i can't wear pants.

    because this would affect others. you can't have a bunch of people walking around naked because they feel it's their right to do so. not when it affects others.

    the U.S. has decided that the place of business isn't person after you have 50+ employees and that makes total sense. after a certain point, you should not be able to discriminate. HL isn't a religious organization, they are a business, they possibly hire non-christians/atheists, it doesn't make sense to not let the employees have the option because "they" don't agree with it. that's infringing on their rights.

    really if someone has an issue, they can just leave. the point of laws here is that they should not cater to one religion, they are to either accomodate all or none. it's easier to just go none and make small exceptions.
    No HL employee is prevented from purchasing birth control or abortion pills on their own so none of their freedoms have been infringed. Unless, of course, you want to argue that we really do not have any freedom unless some corporation is funding it. lol
    My avatar* is dedicated to server errors where ever they roam. May they never return.
    *censoring provided by Ghost

    Server Error Status Thread







  9. #34
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Valefor View Post
    Don't be so willing to drop your individual rights, Sufi - they have their beginnings in the Magna Carta from nearly 1000 years ago - of which a copy sits beside the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Such rights have been fought for, and are not enjoyed universally.
    But sir, that is what i'm doing. Protecting the right of civilians.

  10. #35
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    No HL employee is prevented from purchasing birth control or abortion pills on their own so none of their freedoms have been infringed. Unless, of course, you want to argue that we really do not have any freedom unless some corporation is funding it. lol
    No i'm simply saying that this is a law at the moment. Everyone under aca has the right to be covered by their employers for contrceptives. HL don't want you to have that right.

  11. #36
    Administrator and PSU Technical Manager
    Christopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warner Robins, GA
    Age
    44
    Posts
    8,712
    Rep Power
    112
    Points
    74,246 (1,010 Banked)
    Items Death Note LAtlusVitaPS3 FatMetal Gear Solid 4Naughty Dog360 SlimGuerrilla GamesApple
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    No i'm simply saying that this is a law at the moment. Everyone under aca has the right to be covered by their employers for contrceptives. HL don't want you to have that right.
    It isn't a right. It is a mandate. The law of the moment says that HL and others do not have to abide by the mandate.
    My avatar* is dedicated to server errors where ever they roam. May they never return.
    *censoring provided by Ghost

    Server Error Status Thread







  12. #37
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    It isn't a right. It is a mandate. The law of the moment says that HL and others do not have to abide by the mandate.
    right, mandate. but it's silly that they are exempting them because this would open doors for others to exploit in the future. that's the issue.

  13. #38
    Administrator and PSU Technical Manager
    Christopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warner Robins, GA
    Age
    44
    Posts
    8,712
    Rep Power
    112
    Points
    74,246 (1,010 Banked)
    Items Death Note LAtlusVitaPS3 FatMetal Gear Solid 4Naughty Dog360 SlimGuerrilla GamesApple
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    right, mandate. but it's silly that they are exempting them because this would open doors for others to exploit in the future. that's the issue.
    This only applies to companies where the majority of the stock is held by less than 5 people. So it won't be a case where mega-corps can walk into the courts and exempt themselves. And the company has to make a compelling case that their religious freedoms are being burdened.

    Frankly, this type of crap should never have been made law. These days government is just shredding every instance of where someone should muster up some sort of personal responsibility. Again, social agendas being pushed in the name of "health care".
    My avatar* is dedicated to server errors where ever they roam. May they never return.
    *censoring provided by Ghost

    Server Error Status Thread







  14. #39
    Dedicated Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,386
    Rep Power
    53
    Points
    9,353 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    But sir, that is what i'm doing. Protecting the right of civilians.
    A business owner is still a civilian, Sufi.

  15. #40
    Supreme Veteran
    keefy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Sock Gap
    Posts
    18,198
    Rep Power
    129
    Points
    66,528 (0 Banked)
    Items Gran Turismo 5Michelle MarshDoomid SoftwareCommodore 64Metal Gear Solid
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Putting religion asside I have come to the conclusion that it is not the responsibility of the Gvt or employer to stop a person from becoming pregnant.

  16. #41
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Valefor View Post
    A business owner is still a civilian, Sufi.
    civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Putting religion asside I have come to the conclusion that it is not the responsibility of the Gvt or employer to stop a person from becoming pregnant.
    it's the same as becoming broke too though, they're not taking responsibility, they're just giving them an option.

  17. #42
    Supreme Veteran
    keefy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Sock Gap
    Posts
    18,198
    Rep Power
    129
    Points
    66,528 (0 Banked)
    Items Gran Turismo 5Michelle MarshDoomid SoftwareCommodore 64Metal Gear Solid
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Hey boss, tonight I wanna get down and dirty with my mrs and I need protection, you gonna sort me out?

  18. #43
    Administrator and PSU Technical Manager
    Christopher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warner Robins, GA
    Age
    44
    Posts
    8,712
    Rep Power
    112
    Points
    74,246 (1,010 Banked)
    Items Death Note LAtlusVitaPS3 FatMetal Gear Solid 4Naughty Dog360 SlimGuerrilla GamesApple
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    civilians



    it's the same as becoming broke too though, they're not taking responsibility, they're just giving them an option.
    We don't have options in our social lives unless the company we work for gives them to us?? I'm not following this at all dude.
    My avatar* is dedicated to server errors where ever they roam. May they never return.
    *censoring provided by Ghost

    Server Error Status Thread







  19. #44
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    We don't have options in our social lives unless the company we work for gives them to us?? I'm not following this at all dude.
    what i mean is that it's covered. you don't pay for it. there's a better chance someone may use it if it's covered by the insurance company.

    e.g. if no company out there gave you group rates on insurance, that would probably make it more difficult for you to get coverage...more money out of your pocket.

  20. #45
    Superior Member
    Boxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    18
    Posts
    990
    Rep Power
    46
    Points
    1,559 (0 Banked)
    Why is this bill requiring "certain corporations" to provide contraception in the first place? That should be an incentive for for working with a specific company, not a requirement. Secondly, what's the point in even requiring it if they can opt out based on "closely held religious beliefs"?

    Stupid controversy.
    Platinum/100%: -Fallout 3- -Call of Duty: World at War- -Bioshock- -Modern Warfare 2- -Bioshock 2- -Bioshock: Infinite- -Call of Duty: Black Ops-

  21. #46
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    Why is this bill requiring "certain corporations" to provide contraception in the first place? That should be an incentive for for working with a specific company, not a requirement. Secondly, what's the point in even requiring it if they can opt out based on "closely held religious beliefs"?

    Stupid controversy.
    are you sure it's "certain" corporations?

  22. #47
    Superior Member
    Boxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    18
    Posts
    990
    Rep Power
    46
    Points
    1,559 (0 Banked)
    An article I read said "corporations of a certain size", or something to that effect.

    I'm assuming they have "certain" corporations in mind.
    Platinum/100%: -Fallout 3- -Call of Duty: World at War- -Bioshock- -Modern Warfare 2- -Bioshock 2- -Bioshock: Infinite- -Call of Duty: Black Ops-

  23. #48
    Forum Overseer

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Addison, TX.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    32,707
    Rep Power
    198
    Points
    136,980 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    An article I read said "corporations of a certain size", or something to that effect.

    I'm assuming they have "certain" corporations in mind.
    a certain size yes, but they don't pick and chose, it applies to all corporations after they have a certain employees (i believe 50+).

  24. #49
    Superior Member
    Boxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    18
    Posts
    990
    Rep Power
    46
    Points
    1,559 (0 Banked)
    That's what I'm saying. I personally think it's just a blanket that way they don't come off as bullying a specific few.

    Regardless of WHO they're imposing this policy on - the bigger question is WHY? What point is there?
    Platinum/100%: -Fallout 3- -Call of Duty: World at War- -Bioshock- -Modern Warfare 2- -Bioshock 2- -Bioshock: Infinite- -Call of Duty: Black Ops-

  25. #50
    Apprentice
    Kingstoph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    PSN ID
    Kingstoph
    Posts
    297
    Rep Power
    14
    Points
    1,875 (0 Banked)
    Items DoomVita
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    I think the bigger issue is why is our healthcare still tied to our place of employment? :T
    See, im in England so that in itself has actualy been the strangest part of the issue for me. if i need to go to a hospitol for whatever reason, i dont pay a thing, everything is covered by the NHS which comes out of my Taxes, if i need medication then i pay a flat rate for it, everything is the same price.

    I mean, do you actualy get offered a job and then sit and talk about birth control pills and where you can go pick up jonnies, with your new employer?

    The King has Returned

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
vBCredits II Deluxe v2.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2010-2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.