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Thread: July 2014 NPD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    MS would have known exact figures if they stuck to their drm plans.
    Ha ha. Too true

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    MS would have known exact figures if they stuck to their drm plans.
    Touche lol




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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    I'm talking about the concept of still being happy in a 2nd place position, not settling for it. That doesn't mean they don't still work towards 1st place. Apple would like iOS to be 1st place and wants to keep shooting for that. But they are a very profitable and very happy 2nd place.

    Being a very happy 2nd place is totally different from being CONTENT with that position. Apple is a very happy (very profitable) #2 place in the mobile OS market, but they aren't willing to simply settle for 2nd. Same with Microsoft. Slashing the price of a console is one of many ways it can strive for #1. And if they don't reach #1? They can still be a very happy and profitable 2nd place in the console market.
    Ok you have to stop comparing MS to Apple. Apple has supported the iPhone hell of a lot more than MS has supported the X1. Secondly, Apple never tried to be #1 until recently and for a good reason as well. They purposely chose to stay with one provider in the beginning, likely so they wouldn’t have to change their design and their idea was to keep their OS the same across the board. Which is the case for the most part and it was true up until iPhone 4S came out.

    Apple is also a lot more innovative when it comes to their OS and their hardware…Samsung is not. The quality of their products are the same across the board, with Samsung, you have to be careful what sort of phone you’re buying.

    So the argument that you can be happy as an Apple user, yes of course, because they are doing enough innovation and support (more support than the competitor) that any user would not feel like it matters. The only reason I don’t own an iPhone is because I can’t have it with the provider I’ve chosen. Otherwise I love the iPhone.

    Ironically, I would call Apple like Sony was last-generation. They were number 2 and a lot of it was due to their mishaps and inclusion of blu-ray but their support was astounding during after the first 2 years and it still continues to be better.

    Now, you can still say, “Hey, but I’m still happy, I don’t care about what MS is doing wrong…and I actually don’t think they’re doing anything wrong because I have never criticized them for anything, ever!” and I can’t argue with that but please, don’t sit there and tell me that MS still “can” be happy with the situation they’re in or that it’s still “possible”…hell, they’ve practically told us that they’re not happy with where they are. Did you not see spencer’s comments recently?

    Your analogy is a huge failure. I think 360 was somewhat of it but still not completely the same…I would compare 360 to the Dreamcast, it did great in the beginning but lost its steam as time went by.

    But please stop comparing MS to Apple as Apple is a much more innovative and supportive company than MS ever will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post

    But please stop comparing MS to Apple as Apple is a much more innovative and supportive company than MS ever will be.
    I'm not sure if this is still the case, but at one time Apple was much more profitable in the smartphone business than its competition despite not leading in market share. So laughing all the way to the bank about not being first if this is still true. MS can't make that claim at this point in the generation, I'm sure.

    Either way, I guarantee you MS is not happy with being in second place behind Sony. Spencer said flat out he wants to "win" this generation. They can make their press statements smell like roses all they want, but it is just lipstick on a pig. MS will pull out the stops to be first. We have already seen it and it is we aren't a year in yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I'm not sure if this is still the case, but at one time Apple was much more profitable in the smartphone business than its competition despite not leading in market share. So laughing all the way to the bank about not being first if this is still true. MS can't make that claim at this point in the generation, I'm sure.
    oh they were very profitable. i should've mentioned...and it is different from Sony last gen. we can safely say Sony was not happy with the PS3 because of the lack of profits.

    Either way, I guarantee you MS is not happy with being in second place behind Sony. Spencer said flat out he wants to "win" this generation. They can make their press statements smell like roses all they want, but it is just lipstick on a pig. MS will pull out the stops to be first. We have already seen it and it is we aren't a year in yet.
    yeah, i don't think it's up for discussion if MS is happy or not...no one would be happy in the situation MS is right now...hell, not even Sony was in such a bad situation even without having the power to lower the price like MS has been able to.

    i don't care if hey can be happy lol, they're not happy. there's no one point that would support that they're happy with where they are...they may be happy with the recent changes that have given them a positive boost but overall they aren't happy.

    its like saying some guy just lost millions of dollars in a bet but it is "possible" that he may still be happy...
    Last edited by Omar; 4 Weeks Ago at 16:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    But please stop comparing MS to Apple as Apple is a much more innovative and supportive company than MS ever will be.
    In what way? Apple hasn't innovated squat since Jobs took over, they're extremely hostile in their markets (patent trolling), and they're non-supportive of their customers.

    Microsoft has it's issues but it's nowhere near Apple's level. I think you've somehow forgotten Jobs' reign during the iPhone golden age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    In what way? Apple hasn't innovated squat since Jobs took over, they're extremely hostile in their markets (patent trolling), and they're non-supportive of their customers.

    Microsoft has it's issues but it's nowhere near Apple's level. I think you've somehow forgotten Jobs' reign during the iPhone golden age.
    I haven't had any problems with Apple support and I have required it a couple of times the last two years. Innovation....yeah, they need to step it up there. They are no longer leading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    In what way? Apple hasn't innovated squat since Jobs took over, they're extremely hostile in their markets (patent trolling), and they're non-supportive of their customers.

    Microsoft has it's issues but it's nowhere near Apple's level. I think you've somehow forgotten Jobs' reign during the iPhone golden age.
    how are they non-supportive of their customers?

    I don't disagree that Apple may be on the decline after he died however I’m talking about the company as a whole, what it has done up until now. they created the whole idea of a touch-screen phone, they revolutionized the music industry (saved it practically) by introducing the itunes.

    Brought PCs into people’s hands in the form of iPhone and iPad when they resisted the idea of a PC. Apple revolutionized the way we interact with our devices. i didn't like it at first because i'm always going to be a desktop guy but after i saw my (at this point) 1 year old going through my iphone better than any adult (casual) on a desktop/laptop...i completely understood why this technology was amazing.


    I don't recall anytime MS has brought anything to the market that revolutionized the way we did things. Jobs brought PC first, he was the pioneer, Gates stole his idea (MS-DOS). if anything, Gates was just a great businessman. The two companies are just incomparable.

    I really don’t know what MS have brought to the table other than keeping their dominance in the OS department. Live I’d say is the greatest thing they’ve done for the console industry and having a standardized HDD but other than that, I’m not getting where they have revolutionized anything. And I don’t even ask for that, I just say, at least support your console. you can’t argue with me that MS supports their console the way Sony does. That’s just untrue.
    Last edited by Omar; 4 Weeks Ago at 18:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Don't believe anything as sold through.
    When Sony says it, they are "estimating" according to their data.
    The only "real" actual numbers are shipped. But even those appear blurred now with mixing of last gen and this gen.

    Sony are confident in saying it because they keep having to replenish stock so regularly.
    As demand catches up with supply every where, you watch that "sold through" figure will disappear.

    None of these companies can say with any certainty exact sold through numbers ever.
    Because they don't sell the product to you and me.

    Its like asking a coca cola rep how many cokes are left on the shelf at your local shop.
    He doesn't know.
    But he can tell you if he restocks twice a week or once a month.

    The more regular you restocking, the more certian you can be of you numbers.
    Sony..they restock often.
    oh trust me, this has been brought up before when discussing Sony numbers, they are in a position right now where their margin of error is very low on sold through numbers.

    also it's when supply catches up with demand, not the other way around unless you meant MS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    oh trust me, this has been brought up before when discussing Sony numbers, they are in a position right now where their margin of error is very low on sold through numbers.

    also it's when supply catches up with demand, not the other way around unless you meant MS
    Doh.

    Yeah..

    Umm.

    What he said...

    As for "being happy" in 2nd place,.
    These companies will be happy if they make money. Not if they have sold more.

    No point in selling more if you make a loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    Ok you have to stop comparing MS to Apple. Apple has supported the iPhone hell of a lot more than MS has supported the X1. Secondly, Apple never tried to be #1 until recently and for a good reason as well. They purposely chose to stay with one provider in the beginning, likely so they wouldn’t have to change their design and their idea was to keep their OS the same across the board. Which is the case for the most part and it was true up until iPhone 4S came out.

    Apple is also a lot more innovative when it comes to their OS and their hardware…Samsung is not. The quality of their products are the same across the board, with Samsung, you have to be careful what sort of phone you’re buying.

    So the argument that you can be happy as an Apple user, yes of course, because they are doing enough innovation and support (more support than the competitor) that any user would not feel like it matters. The only reason I don’t own an iPhone is because I can’t have it with the provider I’ve chosen. Otherwise I love the iPhone.

    Ironically, I would call Apple like Sony was last-generation. They were number 2 and a lot of it was due to their mishaps and inclusion of blu-ray but their support was astounding during after the first 2 years and it still continues to be better.

    Now, you can still say, “Hey, but I’m still happy, I don’t care about what MS is doing wrong…and I actually don’t think they’re doing anything wrong because I have never criticized them for anything, ever!” and I can’t argue with that but please, don’t sit there and tell me that MS still “can” be happy with the situation they’re in or that it’s still “possible”…hell, they’ve practically told us that they’re not happy with where they are. Did you not see spencer’s comments recently?

    Your analogy is a huge failure. I think 360 was somewhat of it but still not completely the same…I would compare 360 to the Dreamcast, it did great in the beginning but lost its steam as time went by.

    But please stop comparing MS to Apple as Apple is a much more innovative and supportive company than MS ever will be.
    First of all.... of course Spencer is gonna say he's not happy with being 2nd place. His JOB is to sell more consoles, not to give the message to the public "Hey folks, we're perfectly content with 2nd place. There's no need for us to sell anymore consoles". He'll be out of a job if he's not seen striving for #1 in the market.

    You are confusing HAPPY with CONTENT. There are three financial classes..... Lower...Middle.....Higher. I am middle class. I have no spouse or children. I drive a $45k SUV (paid for). I own my house (paid it off in 15 years instead of 30 years, by paying double my mortgage payments each month). I have no debts. I make decent money at my job. I can afford to eat out whenever I want and have taken numerous vacation trips. I am very happy with my financial position in the middle class.

    BUT... being very happy with my financial position is much different than being content with it. Just cuz I'm very happy with my position in life doesn't mean I'm just content with staying at my position. I want to make more money of course.

    That's why I brought up Apple. Why you brought who is more innovative into this has nothing to do about being a very happy 2nd place.

    Apple has been told by some pundits that they need to lower their prices in order to increase their market share in the mobile market. Apple has clearly shown that they will not sacrifice high profit margins in order to increase market share of iOS. That's like asking Ferrari to build and sell a $30k car....ain't gonna happen. Ferrari would rather sacrifice high volume for high profits. So does Apple.

    That doesn't mean Apple is content with their market position. From THAT point of view, of course they aren't content. A business is never content with being #2. They aren't content with #1 either. They also want their competitors to be further diminished in market share and even complete elimination from the market.

    If it is to be believed that the 360 is indeed in 3rd place after PS3..... they may be in #3, but they are a very happy #3 considering the money it brings in to MS. Better than being #1 and hauling in a fraction of the money....which was Nintendo's case with the Wii.

    So yes... you can be a very happy #2 place in the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Doh.

    Yeah..

    Umm.

    What he said...

    As for "being happy" in 2nd place,.
    These companies will be happy if they make money. Not if they have sold more.

    No point in selling more if you make a loss
    .
    Exactly! You get it, he doesn't.
    Last edited by GreatSpaceKoaster; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Doh.

    Yeah..

    Umm.

    What he said...

    As for "being happy" in 2nd place,.
    These companies will be happy if they make money. Not if they have sold more.

    No point in selling more if you make a loss.
    seriously, you guys will defend anything. you're telling me that sales don't matter? marketshare doesn't matter? no one makes money in the beginning, guess who's going to make more money in the end, the guy who made all-time records ready to collect all those royalties from users/publishers or the guy who is selling half and had to slash the price by $100 within the first 6 months.

    come on guys, do better. thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    First of all.... of course Spencer is gonna say he's not happy with being 2nd place. His JOB is to sell more consoles, not to give the message to the public "Hey folks, we're perfectly content with 2nd place. There's no need for us to sell anymore consoles". He'll be out of a job if he's not seen striving for #1 in the market.

    You are confusing HAPPY with CONTENT. There are three financial classes..... Lower...Middle.....Higher. I am middle class. I have no spouse or children. I drive a $45k SUV (paid for). I own my house (paid it off in 15 years instead of 30 years, by paying double my mortgage payments each month). I have no debts. I make decent money at my job. I can afford to eat out whenever I want and have taken numerous vacation trips. I am very happy with my financial position in the middle class.

    BUT... being very happy with my financial position is much different than being content with it. Just cuz I'm very happy with my position in life doesn't mean I'm just content with staying at my position. I want to make more money of course.
    ...lol. no i get what you're saying, you don't have to keep explaining it to me, your analogies were just bad. you can't sit here and tell me that MS is "apple" happy, they're not, take that crazy somewhere else. MS were drowning up until they lowered the price. they weren't even stable.

    That's why I brought up Apple. Why you brought who is more innovative into this has nothing to do about being a very happy 2nd place.
    of course it does because without innovation and support, you have nothing left in a brand.

    Apple has been told by some pundits that they need to lower their prices in order to increase their market share in the mobile market. Apple has clearly shown that they will not sacrifice high profit margins in order to increase market share of iOS. That's like asking Ferrari to build and sell a $30k car....ain't gonna happen. Ferrari would rather sacrifice high volume for high profits. So does Apple.
    wow, you just brought up two more examples that are horrible. Again, please learn how to make analogies.

    1) Apple has a quality hardware, software and accessory support. MS does not have a quality hardware and they have not supported the Xbox like Sony has as of yet. Not even this generation.

    2) Ferrari is a quality car and it's worth the price it charges. Xbox One is a cheap Focus that barely gets the job done and it charges you MORE than the Ferrari (that is the PS4) and recently they decided to lower its price...which again lol your example of Apple/Ferrari not lowering their price, was actually completely off the mark lol.

    it is unbelievable to me how you can make these analogies that are completely wrong. Xbox One a Ferrari? LOL ok, send me some of that $#@! too. unless you mean the PS4 is a Lamborghini that sells for the same money.

    That doesn't mean Apple is content with their market position. From THAT point of view, of course they aren't content. A business is never content with being #2. They aren't content with #1 either. They also want their competitors to be further diminished in market share and even complete elimination from the market.
    No, again, the difference between Apple and MS here is that Apple "purposely" wanted to charge more because they felt that the profit margin would be enough to cover the sales margins. Again, they did not want to expand their base and have to change their design or OS to accommodate the providers. This makes sense because one of their advantages were (and why my first smart phone was an iphone) was that you weren't restricted by which update you could have on what phone you had, it was all universal. on top of that, iphone series (SKU) was much more simple and easy to choose from whereas samsung had to make dozens of different models which had dozens of variation in the hardware and thus you couldn't just fit one update on all devices.

    THAT'S why they chose the path that they did and for the most part it worked for them until Samsung really started to take off and took a lot of the marketshare and basically were making money off their dominance despite Apple's more pure approach.

    please stop embarrassing yourself with these silly analogies. or learn 2 use them first.

    If it is to be believed that the 360 is indeed in 3rd place after PS3..... they may be in #3, but they are a very happy #3 considering the money it brings in to MS. Better than being #1 and hauling in a fraction of the money....which was Nintendo's case with the Wii.
    again...you failed. again! why would you compare 360 vs PS3 to X1 vs PS4? X1 is not bringing anywhere close to the revenues PS4 does, as opposed to 360 brings vs the PS3...i think the 360 actually brought more than the PS3 considering they generally sold more multiplats. why would you do that? yes, MS wouldn't care if they were 3rd with the 360 at this point but what does that have to do with MS' current scenario with the X1? NOTHING!

    why would you even compare them together when the PS3 is nothing like the PS4...the PS4 is hell of a lot more successful already (when comparing the relative data before you go crazy on this one), it's breaking records, developers have nothing to say about it but praises, it's cheap to make, it's demand is off the roof. Why!

    do you understand what analogy means!? do you understand contexts!? jesus $#@!ing christ!

    Exactly! You get it, he doesn't.
    it must be something that only pro-xbox fans understand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    seriously, you guys will defend anything. you're telling me that sales don't matter? marketshare doesn't matter? no one makes money in the beginning, guess who's going to make more money in the end, the guy who made all-time records ready to collect all those royalties from users/publishers or the guy who is selling half and had to slash the price by $100 within the first 6 months.

    come on guys, do better. thanks.

    ..
    Do better? I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

    All I'm saying is companies can be happy in 2nd place sales if their profits are good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Do better? I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

    All I'm saying is companies can be happy in 2nd place sales if their profits are good.
    are you honestly telling me that MS is making profits with the X1?

    will you people stop with the "can" statements. I'm talking about MS' current state. i don't care if they can be happy or not. no one would be happy in the situation "they're" in, end of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    are you honestly telling me that MS is making profits with the X1?

    will you people stop with the "can" statements. I'm talking about MS' current state. i don't care if they can be happy or not. no one would be happy in the situation "they're" in, end of.
    They lost $400 million getting xbox one out the door which is normal, but revenue from computer and hardware increased 3.2 billion. They may not be happy but they aren't going broke anytime soon. That's for sure. Now compare that to the competition they are sitting pretty. They haven't been profitable in almost a decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    They lost $400 million getting xbox one out the door which is normal, but revenue from computer and hardware increased 3.2 billion. They may not be happy but they aren't going broke anytime soon. That's for sure. Now compare that to the competition they are sitting pretty. They haven't been profitable in almost a decade.
    lol wow you guys just don't quit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    They lost $400 million getting xbox one out the door which is normal, but revenue from computer and hardware increased 3.2 billion. They may not be happy but they aren't going broke anytime soon. That's for sure. Now compare that to the competition they are sitting pretty. They haven't been profitable in almost a decade.
    do you really think the xbox division can just go grabbing money from other parts of the company?

    Edit:Nintendo and Sony aren't going the sega route anytime soon.

    Edit2:I swear you getting to talking about $#@! at times and have no clue what you're talking about. We all know that MS has more money than Nin and sony. They're all doing good enough financially to not leave the business. All that extra talk is meaningless unless you love seeing your words on a computer screen.
    Last edited by Two4DaMoney; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    lol wow you guys just don't quit.
    Well you asked....lol They aren't rolling in huge amounts of xbox one dough but when you are sitting on over 250 billion dollars you can take more blows and keep standing. Financially speaking there is no competition they have to be worried about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    do you really think the xbox division can just go grabbing money from other parts of the company?

    Edit:Nintendo and Sony aren't going the sega route anytime soon.
    Nope but it's better to have and not grab than to try to grab and not have....lol It will be years before sony can recover. I spoke to one of their reps today in our PX and she said they have fallen to No.3 in the US and No. 6 in the world for TVs but thats a different story. Nintendo seems to be doing ok in spite of its past troubles. They were sitting on huge cash reserves.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    are you honestly telling me that MS is making profits with the X1?

    will you people stop with the "can" statements. I'm talking about MS' current state. i don't care if they can be happy or not. no one would be happy in the situation "they're" in, end of.
    I don't know.
    I wasn't applying it specifically to the Xbox One. If you go back over my statement, I wasn't referring to anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    seriously, you guys will defend anything. you're telling me that sales don't matter? marketshare doesn't matter? no one makes money in the beginning, guess who's going to make more money in the end, the guy who made all-time records ready to collect all those royalties from users/publishers or the guy who is selling half and had to slash the price by $100 within the first 6 months.

    come on guys, do better. thanks.

    ...lol. no i get what you're saying, you don't have to keep explaining it to me, your analogies were just bad. you can't sit here and tell me that MS is "apple" happy, they're not, take that crazy somewhere else. MS were drowning up until they lowered the price. they weren't even stable.

    of course it does because without innovation and support, you have nothing left in a brand.

    wow, you just brought up two more examples that are horrible. Again, please learn how to make analogies.

    1) Apple has a quality hardware, software and accessory support. MS does not have a quality hardware and they have not supported the Xbox like Sony has as of yet. Not even this generation.

    2) Ferrari is a quality car and it's worth the price it charges. Xbox One is a cheap Focus that barely gets the job done and it charges you MORE than the Ferrari (that is the PS4) and recently they decided to lower its price...which again lol your example of Apple/Ferrari not lowering their price, was actually completely off the mark lol.

    it is unbelievable to me how you can make these analogies that are completely wrong. Xbox One a Ferrari? LOL ok, send me some of that $#@! too. unless you mean the PS4 is a Lamborghini that sells for the same money.

    No, again, the difference between Apple and MS here is that Apple "purposely" wanted to charge more because they felt that the profit margin would be enough to cover the sales margins. Again, they did not want to expand their base and have to change their design or OS to accommodate the providers. This makes sense because one of their advantages were (and why my first smart phone was an iphone) was that you weren't restricted by which update you could have on what phone you had, it was all universal. on top of that, iphone series (SKU) was much more simple and easy to choose from whereas samsung had to make dozens of different models which had dozens of variation in the hardware and thus you couldn't just fit one update on all devices.

    THAT'S why they chose the path that they did and for the most part it worked for them until Samsung really started to take off and took a lot of the marketshare and basically were making money off their dominance despite Apple's more pure approach.

    please stop embarrassing yourself with these silly analogies. or learn 2 use them first.

    again...you failed. again! why would you compare 360 vs PS3 to X1 vs PS4? X1 is not bringing anywhere close to the revenues PS4 does, as opposed to 360 brings vs the PS3...i think the 360 actually brought more than the PS3 considering they generally sold more multiplats. why would you do that? yes, MS wouldn't care if they were 3rd with the 360 at this point but what does that have to do with MS' current scenario with the X1? NOTHING!

    why would you even compare them together when the PS3 is nothing like the PS4...the PS4 is hell of a lot more successful already (when comparing the relative data before you go crazy on this one), it's breaking records, developers have nothing to say about it but praises, it's cheap to make, it's demand is off the roof. Why!

    do you understand what analogy means!? do you understand contexts!? jesus $#@!ing christ!


    it must be something that only pro-xbox fans understand...
    Jesus $#@!ing christ is right. You keep bringing up innovation, quality, brand image and a host of other $#@! that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I wasn't comparing Apple's quality of hardware or it's innovation or brand image to MS. Nor was I doing the same in comparing Sony in those aspects to MS.

    I was merely showing that like Apple, MS can be very happy FINANCIALLY even if the Xbox isn't in first place market share wise. That's the only similarity I was using Apple for. I wasn't saying they had the same innovation level as Apple, the same quality as Apple or the same profit margins, etc, etc.

    As for why did they slash the price of the Xbox One? Obviously they weren't CONTENT with just their current sales.....so they slash the price to increase sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post
    are you honestly telling me that MS is making profits with the X1?

    will you people stop with the "can" statements. I'm talking about MS' current state. i don't care if they can be happy or not. no one would be happy in the situation "they're" in, end of.
    No one would be happy in the situation? Sounds like projection of your own personal feelings on their current situation. Do you think Xbox One will beat out Wii U in the end or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    do you really think the xbox division can just go grabbing money from other parts of the company?

    Edit:Nintendo and Sony aren't going the sega route anytime soon.
    They can't just grab it, they gotta ask for it. If the powers that be think the Xbox division deserves it, their piece of the overall MS budget pie will increase. Plain and simple.

    Remember WebTV/MSN TV? Unlike the Xbox division, WebTV never made money, but MS dumped bucket loads of money into the product for nearly 16 years. The service closed down in 2013. If a lead weight like WebTV could keep getting money all those years, certainly a far more successful Xbox division can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Doh.

    Yeah..

    Umm.

    What he said...

    As for "being happy" in 2nd place,.
    These companies will be happy if they make money. Not if they have sold more.

    No point in selling more if you make a loss.
    Why would selling more create a loss. If the shoe was on the other footthe parameters would be the same. Of course they are glad to be making a profit but they are not satisfied.




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    Quote Originally Posted by PS4freak View Post
    Why would selling more create a loss. If the shoe was on the other footthe parameters would be the same. Of course they are glad to be making a profit but they are not satisfied.
    New consoles are sold at a loss. The idea being you subsidies your console in hope of gaining profits from:

    a/ Subscriptions to online services
    b/ Royalties on 3rd party games.
    c/ Profits on 1st party.

    Sony's profits, considering the shear amount they have sold in the past 1/4 for example are minimal.

    Sony doubled there sales from this time last year from 131 bn yen to 257 bn yen.

    They however only made 4.3 bn yen.

    Thats about 42 million US dollars. Which is miniscule amount of money consider sales (thats a return on sales of 1.6%).

    MS Game division returned 2.1 billion in margin in the past 12 months. Just for comparisons sake. I would do lats 1/4 but it gets real messy trying to do that as they have spun it of into its own department, but we shoudl see a better picture next 1/4.

    Their return on sales was 29%. This includes sales of Surface products so don't attribute that margin exclusively to Xbox.

    Of course, MS is still riding on the success of the Xbox 360 , which was a wildly more profitable profit than the PS3 every was, and Sony is still hampered by the PS3 leagacy.

    In short sales do matter for the long terms success of these machine in the coming years, there is no doubt about that.

    On the other hand, you could be easily in second place and out performing first place sales if your margins are better or if your not doing significant reinvestment in to your supporting structures (eg expanding your network services for example by adding more servers etc etc).


    Now, I will disclaimer this by saying, the current fiscals are too messy form both companies to say anything about the current gen consoles and what impact those extreme sales Sony has had will have on them.
    Suffice to say, the earlier a console is in somebody hands, the more games they will buy over the life of that console =the more profits you make .

    That early 10 million in sales to Sony will continue pay huge dividends for years to come.
    Last edited by mynd; 4 Weeks Ago at 22:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I don't know.
    I wasn't applying it specifically to the Xbox One. If you go back over my statement, I wasn't referring to anyone.
    ok but your response was to a discussion that was specifically about the xbox one.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Jesus $#@!ing christ is right. You keep bringing up innovation, quality, brand image and a host of other $#@! that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I wasn't comparing Apple's quality of hardware or it's innovation or brand image to MS. Nor was I doing the same in comparing Sony in those aspects to MS.

    I was merely showing that like Apple, MS can be very happy FINANCIALLY even if the Xbox isn't in first place market share wise. That's the only similarity I was using Apple for. I wasn't saying they had the same innovation level as Apple, the same quality as Apple or the same profit margins, etc, etc.
    ...ok, let's get some things straight, are you talking about 2nd place in general? because i'm not talking about 2nd place in general. i'm talking about MS' state when it comes to specifically the Xbox One at this very moment.

    the sole reason Apple is happy with where they are, for the most part, IS because of all the perks they have over their competitor. that's why you can't bring up Apple. you should be bringing up the Windows Phone (because that'd be a closer analogy, ironically) which I suggested eons ago but i guess you like using Apple because it makes you feel better and it's completely wrong.

    As for why did they slash the price of the Xbox One? Obviously they weren't CONTENT with just their current sales.....so they slash the price to increase sales.
    yeah, within 6 months, like i said, even Sony wasn't so desperate with the PS3 although they probably didn't have a choice after including the blu-ray. but the point remains that anyone dropping the price of their console within 6 months (has anyone else ever dropped $100 within 6 months?) could not possibly be happy with the situation they were in.

    i seriously don't even know what you're arguing about. you want me to agree with you that MS is "ok" with being where they are? sure, maybe they've given up hope but they're definitely not happy with where they are. what else can we talk about? you're playing a semantics war at this point because you don't like admitting that MS would rather not be in the situation they're in.
    No one would be happy in the situation? Sounds like projection of your own personal feelings on their current situation. Do you think Xbox One will beat out Wii U in the end or not?
    if you have to compare MS' success with the Wii U, i think it's your personal expectations that are the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    New consoles are sold at a loss. The idea being you subsidies your console in hope of gaining profits from:

    a/ Subscriptions to online services
    b/ Royalties on 3rd party games.
    c/ Profits on 1st party.

    Sony's profits, considering the shear amount they have sold in the past 1/4 for example are minimal.

    Sony doubled there sales from this time last year from 131 bn yen to 257 bn yen.

    They however only made 4.3 bn yen.

    Thats about 42 million US dollars. Which is miniscule amount of money consider sales (thats a return on sales of 1.6%).

    MS Game division returned 2.1 billion in margin in the past 12 months. Just for comparisons sake. I would do lats 1/4 but it gets real messy trying to do that as they have spun it of into its own department, but we shoudl see a better picture next 1/4.

    Their return on sales was 29%. This includes sales of Surface products so don't attribute that margin exclusively to Xbox.

    Of course, MS is still riding on the success of the Xbox 360 , which was a wildly more profitable profit than the PS3 every was, and Sony is still hampered by the PS3 leagacy.

    In short sales do matter for the long terms success of these machine in the coming years, there is no doubt about that.

    On the other hand, you could be easily in second place and out performing first place sales if your margins are better or if your not doing significant reinvestment in to your supporting structures (eg expanding your network services for example by adding more servers etc etc).


    Now, I will disclaimer this by saying, the current fiscals are too messy form both companies to say anything about the current gen consoles and what impact those extreme sales Sony has had will have on them.
    Suffice to say, the earlier a console is in somebody hands, the more games they will buy over the life of that console =the more profits you make .

    That early 10 million in sales to Sony will continue pay huge dividends for years to come.
    if it weren't for that disclaimer man.

    you have to realize that all of the things you've mentioned starts out with having more market share. subscription sales, roaylties, first party sales are all tied to having market share. last generation i kept telling you guys, if you don't have a strong infrastructure, you will lose. MS had no other choice but to go the route they did because they didn't want to build infrastructures.

    the difference between people that understand these concepts and people that don't is that people that don't understand it continue to bring up history to justify their comments, they don't understand the implications of current actions that may cause in the future. MS isn't going to sit on their laurels and just let X1 lose because they're doing well with the 360 in its last years.

    again my comment has nothing to do with that you can't be happy at the 2nd place because i will support that with the 360 vs PS3, at this point, it doesn't matter who sells more in the end, both MS and Sony were happy although i will say that MS must be a hell of a lot more happy considering they made all those profits. Sony on the other hand, didn't completely fail and built themselves a great foundation.

    what my comment was, was simply about MS not being happy with where they are at the moment and since that point, GSK has not been able to accept that and continues to explain me what content and happy means... -_-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar View Post

    if it weren't for that disclaimer man.
    Well it is too early to tell at this point. That's why I'm not explicitly labeling either system as being profitable or not profitable.
    you have to realize that all of the things you've mentioned starts out with having more market share. subscription sales, roaylties, first party sales are all tied to having market share. last generation i kept telling you guys, if you don't have a strong infrastructure, you will lose. MS had no other choice but to go the route they did because they didn't want to build infrastructures.
    Are you referring to 1st party infrastructure, cause their technical support, their warranty support and and their network support are without question.

    the difference between people that understand these concepts and people that don't is that people that don't understand it continue to bring up history to justify their comments, they don't understand the implications of current actions that may cause in the future. MS isn't going to sit on their laurels and just let X1 lose because they're doing well with the 360 in its last years.

    again my comment has nothing to do with that you can't be happy at the 2nd place because i will support that with the 360 vs PS3, at this point, it doesn't matter who sells more in the end, both MS and Sony were happy although i will say that MS must be a hell of a lot more happy considering they made all those profits. Sony on the other hand, didn't completely fail and built themselves a great foundation.

    what my comment was, was simply about MS not being happy with where they are at the moment and since that point, GSK has not been able to accept that and continues to explain me what content and happy means... -_-
    MS certainly weren't happy, their actions in the past 12 months have told us that.
    Right now, if they look at all the boxes to tick however I think they have set themselves up for a good holiday season at the very least.
    They have a cheaper product than they did (and cheaper then Sony in some places in the world).
    They have a dam strong line up of first party going into the Holidays, with FH2, SSO and MCC.

    Really if they cant at least gain some traction this holidays I'm not sure they ever will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Well it is too early to tell at this point. That's why I'm not explicitly labeling either system as being profitable or not profitable.
    well the trend is towards Sony because they were close to making profit from the beginning, they are still selling it for the price they originally did and they have been selling the most, that has a much larger potential for profits than the other way around.

    but i wasn't even talking about that.

    Are you referring to 1st party infrastructure, cause their technical support, their warranty support and and their network support are without question.
    yeah, i'm talking about first party, but it goes beyond that, working with developers, making your platform more accessible and open, investing into projects outside of first party etc.

    MS certainly weren't happy, their actions in the past 12 months have told us that.
    could you please convince GSK for me. thanks.

    Right now, if they look at all the boxes to tick however I think they have set themselves up for a good holiday season at the very least.
    They have a cheaper product than they did (and cheaper then Sony in some places in the world).
    They have a dam strong line up of first party going into the Holidays, with FH2, SSO and MCC.

    Really if they cant at least gain some traction this holidays I'm not sure they ever will.
    yeah i agree there, all i said was that at this point they wish to be in a better place. whether that comes this holiday or not, has nothing to do with my comment. i never once stated that they will be in this state the entire generation, neither did i say that you can't be happy being #2 "in general". other than a few downs in the first few years, i've been pretty content with the PS3 and looking at what both had to offer, it makes sense why neither side really lost.

    I think GSK completely misunderstood my context.

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