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  1. #1
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    It's not time for devs to leave PS3 behind



    Thereís been a call to leave PS3 behind in favor of an all-PS4 future ó a drastic cutting down on cross-generation games leading to their quick elimination. Releases both recent and upcoming are often found at the center of these discussions: Yakuza 0, Dragon Quest Heroes, Star Ocean 5, and no doubt soon, Tales of Berseria. Hereís the thing: itís not time yet. Itís also not holding back your Japanese PS4 games as much as you might think.

    I even went through this thought process myself while playing the great Yakuza 0. ďMan,Ē I said, ďThis looks amazing, but think of how much better it would be without the PS3 version holding it back!Ē



    Itís not an unreasonable thought. Itís perfectly logical to assume that the existence of a last-generation game limits the potential of the newest releases. In order to make the games comparable in any way, they need to play, perform, and look close enough to each other, right? And to make a PS4 game that can be downgraded enough ó or, in the reverse, make a PS3 game that can be upgraded just enough ó you need to keep them close together. Sure, this isnít an unreasonable assumption.

    It is, however, wrong.

    The fact of the matter is that without the PS3 versions of this cross-gen Japanese games, the differences in the PS4 version would be minimal, if they manifested at all. Most Japanese developers simply donít have the budget to push their products too far into the sky. Apart from very few exceptions with huge-name franchises, Japanese game makers lack the funds the max out PS4 hardware.

    If Dragon Quest Heroes never came to PS3, thereís not a single thing about it that would have been improved. The PS4 version already has more enemies on screen, a higher frame rate (60fps to PS3ís 30fps), shorter load times, and cleaner visuals. Alright, Iím sure maybe in one corner of a battlefield thereís a coin that would sparkle a little brighter. Whoopee. Point is, given the sales expectations, thereís not much that wouldíve been done to that game, had it been a PS4 exclusive.



    As game consoles have become more powerful, development on them has also become more expensive. All the while, the Japanese yen has gone way down in value, its citizens are dealing with a moribund economy and tax hikes looming in the future, spending is down, console and game sales are way down, and the new console install base is growing more slowly than past generations.

    Put Yourself in Their Shoes

    Letís take a look at some numbers. In its combined first two weeks, Yakuza 0 sold 175,390 on PS3, while its PS4 version lagged behind with 105,761. At first, the performance of PS4ís Dragon Quest Heroes seemed great, with 327,389 sold in about a month. But its PS3 version was the real money maker, shifting 442,854 in the same time frame.

    There are other examples like this all over the place.

    So now, imagine that you have to develop a console game ó and developing one the caliber of DQH or Yakuza Zero is a very expensive task, to be sure ó and you have to do it without being able to rely on 55-65% of your sales (as 63% of Yakuza 0 sales were for PS3, and 57% of Dragon Quest Heroes sales were for PS3). I know that I donít want a 50% pay cut. Do you?

    Would you really mash the Go Button on a project that was exclusive to PS4, and all but guarantee that your sales would be cut in half, if not worse?

    The Noble Fallen Heroes

    Some people say that the sales of PS4 games would increase if there was no PS3 version. Without a doubt, this is true. Of course, there are people out there who would want a certain new game so badly that theyíd crack, go out and buy a PS4 alongside it.

    ÖBut how many?

    Will it be the 50,000 or 100,000 your company needs? Given the PS4ís poor performance in Japan (lagging far behind the PS3, and even trailing consensus commercial failures such as the GameCube), can you really depend on the Japanese market to turn around and change every pattern it has demonstrated to this point? Would you gamble your incomeĖ your familyís livelihood ó for the next year on that?

    Onechanbara Z2 Chaos, Disgaea 5, and Omega Quintet tried that. Howíd that turn out for them? Poorly.



    Onechanbara Z2 Chaos was under 11,000 copies during its Japanese debut week. Omega Quintet performed similarly. Itís hard for me to estimate how hard it would have been to make a version of Onechanbara that fit the PS3, but having looked at it and played it, and having seen that it was possible for Dragon Quest Heroes and Yakuza 0, itís a reasonable notion.

    True, true, Onechanbara and Omega Quintet donít have quite the name power of some other franchises. But what about Disgaea? Disgaea 4 on PS3 sold more than 80,000 copies in its debut week. So how did the PS4-exclusive Disagea 5 sell? Upon last check, after two months on the market, itís still struggling to reach half of that number.

    And the sad part is, that game truly does take advantage of PS4 horsepower. The size of Disgaea 5Ďs battlefields and number of characters displayed on screen simply wasnít possible on a PS3 tactical RPG. The team went all out, and their reward wasÖdismal marketplace failure.



    North America and Europe might make up some of the gap, as Disgaea has a nice-sized audience outside of Japan, but the thing is, now, unexpectedly, the western audience has to first make up for a Japan-side failure before the profits can start coming in. This is a situation no developer wants to be in. A developer as hilarious and fun as Nippon Ichi doesnít deserve that fate. If they come out with a dumbed-down version of D5 for PS3 and/or Vita, I canít fault them.

    Which Old Witch?

    Iím not saying that a PS4 exclusive canít do well in Japan. Oh, it certainly can. The Witcher III proved that, as it has sold almost 100,000 copies since its late-May debut. The key difference, of course, is that European developer CD Projekt RED was only seeing the Japanese market as a bonus. Those guys knew that their real cash haul was coming from Europe and the Americas, not Japan.



    Western games have demonstrated an ability have PS4 versions outsell PS3 versions (both at home and in Japan) but even in those cases, the PS3 version represents a large chunk of the sales. Look to the case of Far Cry 4, whose PS4 version sold more than PS3, but only by a three-week margin of 52k to 32k. Youíre still losing 40% if you skip a PS3 version there. If that were your own country, thatíd be a much bigger deal than in a lower-priority market.

    Asleep in the Fantasy

    But what about Final Fantasy XV? I only put this in here because I know someone will bring it up. Quick and to the point: Square Enix is a company with the time and the money to commit to a project of that size. If you think that more games will start to look like Final Fantasy XV just because the PS3 versions die off, youíre simply wrong. Going back through previous generations, mainline Final Fantasy games have almost always been among system leaders in visuals, and Square Enix has the name and the bank account to make sure it stays that way. They are the 1%.



    PS3 is A-OK

    And taking a step back, Iím okay with PS3 versions existing anyway. Yakuza 0 and Dragon Quest Heroes look and play like legit PS4 games. If you didnít already know there was a PS3 version, youíd probably never guess it just by playing.

    In fact, Sony is confident in this, too. While Dragon Quest Heroes and Sword Art Online: Lost Song got PS3 versions in Japan and mainland Asia, the PS3 versions wonít be traveling to North America and Europe. Youíre reading this website and you already know about those gamesí PS3 iterations, but the common customer will not. And you know what? The common customer wonít be any the wiser, because those games perform fantastically.



    So the next time you wonder if a Japanese game is being held back, consider the above. A PS4 exclusive version would, in the great majority of cases, not look much better with the removal of a PS3 versionís existence. Overall sales would decrease, which means budget would decrease; and when budgets decrease, games donít often end up looking or performing better. Quite the opposite.
    Source

    The article is mainly addressing Japanese game developers but I thought it was an interesting read.
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    [OT] Dragon Quest Heroes
    Dragon Quest General Discussion Thread

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    Everybody but MS has abandoned old gen. WTF Tombraider is doing still coming there, god knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Everybody but MS has abandoned old gen. WTF Tombraider is doing still coming there, god knows.
    lots of stuff still coming to PS3 from Japan. TR is all 360 has left.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    lots of stuff still coming to PS3 from Japan. TR is all 360 has left.
    Re: Japan that doesn't surprise me, they are always a day late and a dollar short.

    Reality is, none of this stuff Japanese was ever going to be technically demanding, and they could release most of these titles on both Ps3 and PS4. Which is what the article is basically saying.

    It's more an indictment on the state of Japan development than anything else. AAA devs left the field a long time, and only the juniors are running around out there playing now.

    If its niche, and it works, they can keep releasing PS3 games all they want.

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    Ok...I get your point, but to say everyone has abandoned old gen but MS....no. Factually, incorrect. Come on. That is just not the truth, right?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Ok...I get your point, but to say everyone has abandoned old gen but MS....no. Factually, incorrect. Come on. That is just not the truth, right?
    Well I meant AAA devs.
    I'm still shocked Phantom Pain is still coming honestly, that may well hurt it.
    There is only that and a Lego game on the horizon.
    No AAA game has been announced this year as being in development for last gen titles has it?
    Last edited by mynd; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:29.

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    Unless the PS4 version of games sell more than their PS3 version, Japanese game developers aren't going to abandon the PS3. The article talks about more than just how technically demanding games are.
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    [OT] Dragon Quest Heroes
    Dragon Quest General Discussion Thread

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    Yes, but it also talks about Japan as a market that isn't niche, which it is relative to the world market.
    I imagine there will be plenty of games made for local consumption, many which may never make it outside of Japan in the coming years.

    The issue (which has been a big one for Japan for so very long), is that they are inwards looking and relatively small budgeted games.

    You can argue which one came first, but its a never ending circle.
    Yes it absolutely makes sense to release it on as many platforms as they can.
    Last edited by mynd; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:38.

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    This article has said exactly what I thought about the console market and it's situation in Japan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yes, but it also talks about Japan as a market that isn't niche, which it is relative to the world market.
    I imagine there will be plenty of games made for local consumption, many which may never make it outside of Japan in the coming years.

    The issue (which has been a big one for Japan for so very long), is that they are inwards looking and relatively small budgeted games.

    You can argue which one came first, but its a never ending circle.
    Yes it absolutely makes sense to release it on as many platforms as they can.
    Still, what did Microsoft and Tomb Raider have to do with this?
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    [OT] Dragon Quest Heroes
    Dragon Quest General Discussion Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal King Slime View Post
    Still, what did Microsoft and Tomb Raider have to do with this?
    Because its the only big AAA title still being developed?
    Hello?
    And again, my point was that everyone else has left, so should MS frankly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    And again, my point was that everyone else has left, so should MS frankly.
    It seems really odd for someone to mention an Xbox exclusive in a thread about devs supporting the PS3 in Japan. AAA development in Japan clearly isn't represented with the Xbox brand.
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    [OT] Dragon Quest Heroes
    Dragon Quest General Discussion Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal King Slime View Post
    It seems really odd for someone to mention an Xbox exclusive in a thread about devs supporting the PS3 in Japan. AAA development in Japan clearly isn't represented with the Xbox brand.
    Its not an exclusive, its a timed exclusive, and I suspect never coming to the PS3.
    Its IS a good case in that some one is paying for development of a last gen title when they don't necessarily have to (or probably should).
    Are you saying that Tomb Raider would be last gen if it wasn't being funded by MS?
    Because I don't think it would.
    I'm happy to use a Sony exclusive as example, I really don't care. I find it strange that you would care what last gen platform it was being developed for considering..well its last gen, who dam well cares?

    AAA development is represented in Japan, because it is AAA, it has to be multiplatform (or funded by one of the companies).

    Unless you trying to suggest these titles discussed are AAA, because they simply are not. THATS the entire point of the article.
    Last edited by mynd; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:30.

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    The article isn't downplaying big-budget Japanese games but rather the need to develop exclusively for new-gen consoles like the PS4. Dragon Quest Heroes and Yakuza 0 are examples of AAA games which you've conveniently overlooked in your reply, mynd. You only need to take one look at Star Ocean 5 (specifically the link AesterPhoenix posted in my thread for the game in the E3 forum) to see that it's a big-budget title. While we're at it, let's stop using the damn industry buzzword and call them big-budget because the term AAA seems to have warped people's expectations for games.
    Thanks to Kwes for the avatar and Sylar for the signature!

    [OT] Dragon Quest Heroes
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    Yakuza big budget? Never has been before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal King Slime View Post
    The article isn't downplaying big-budget Japanese games but rather the need to develop exclusively for new-gen consoles like the PS4. Dragon Quest Heroes and Yakuza 0 are examples of AAA games which you've conveniently overlooked in your reply, mynd. You only need to take one look at Star Ocean 5 (specifically the link AesterPhoenix posted in my thread for the game in the E3 forum) to see that it's a big-budget title. While we're at it, let's stop using the damn industry buzzword and call them big-budget because the term AAA seems to have warped people's expectations for games.
    This I absolutely agree with people have a warped view point of the gaming industry certainly a lot of Westerners do.


    Well most Japanese companies other than Square now days have the budget in comparison to Western companies most are struggling if they go PS4 only. Games can be big budgeted but it doesn't mean they are any good.

    Tomb Raider for 360,Xbox ONE has no relevance to this topic or to the Japanese gaming industry.
    After the timed exclusivity is up it is likely that they will release it only for PS4 from how the industry is going in the west. But that's that.

    Yes Star Ocean 5 is going the right direction from what i've heard and seen of it. FFXV is just all over the place they constantly changing things in the game all the time so we have no real idea what the game is actually going to turn out like.

    Heck FFXV has had downgrades since the E3 Trailer and heaps of western games do it as well such as Watch Dogs.
    Well Yakuza 1 cost 21 million to make and that was in PS2 era.

    It's no good having an open world if you don't feel like you achieved something by exploring.Like Slime and the article said it's talking about why Japanese developers develop a game for both PS3 and PS4 rather than doing a game solely for PS4.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsterPhoenix View Post
    This I absolutely agree with people have a warped view point of the gaming industry certainly a lot of Westerners do.
    AAA is a production value, nothing else.

    Well most Japanese companies other than Square now days have the budget in comparison to Western companies most are struggling if they go PS4 only.
    As would Ubisoft or EA, you don't have a point there at all, you don't get free compensation because its "Japanese made"
    Games can be big budgeted but it doesn't mean they are any good.
    Which applies to every game every? What are you trying to say.
    Tomb Raider for 360,Xbox ONE has no relevance to this topic or to the Japanese gaming industry.
    You don't even get what I was saying.

    What does every single developer who has gone next gen only now got in common?
    1/ They are successful.
    2/ They are big budget.
    3/ They dont limit their market to the local market place.
    After the timed exclusivity is up it is likely that they will release it only for PS4 from how the industry is going in the west. But that's that.
    Yup and likely no PS3 version in sight.
    You understand I'm saying releasing TR on 360 is stupid, right?
    Yes Star Ocean 5 is going the right direction from what i've heard and seen of it. FFXV is just all over the place they constantly changing things in the game all the time so we have no real idea what the game is actually going to turn out like.

    Heck FFXV has had downgrades since the E3 Trailer and heaps of western games do it as well such as Watch Dogs.
    Well Yakuza 1 cost 21 million to make and that was in PS2 era.

    It's no good having an open world if you don't feel like you achieved something by exploring.Like Slime and the article said it's talking about why Japanese developers develop a game for both PS3 and PS4 rather than doing a game solely for PS4.
    And why ultimately the market place is doomed to make small budget inward looking games.

    I fully understand what the article is saying, and I'm trying to open you eyes to the fact that while the rest of the world struggled with that question a year or two ago, Japan may never get beyond that question. I don't have an issue with that if that where they want to continue to go.
    Last edited by mynd; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post

    Which applies to every game every? What are you trying to say.
    Crysis 2 & 3 is an example can deliver in graphics but nothing else Crysis 1 was better than both of them.Skyrim is a good game but has a ton of bugs. Call Of Duty is big budgeted series COD:M1 & 2 were good but after that the games themselves haven't changed much or only since Ghosts but they didn't improve much of it and Advanced Warfare was an improvement graphics wise.Even recently they revealed that Black Ops 3 is coming to 360/PS3 with less features than the current gen versions which is expected.
    So it done well sales wise and that all that mattered plus it the similar case with Battlefield.

    Battlefield Bad Company 2 was great but afterwards EA taking more control and rushing the recent battlefield games such as Battlefield 3 which had not letting dice do what they want where as in Bad Company 2 EA let Dice do whatever they want but if EA gave more freedom to dice with the recent Battlefield releases it would of been better.

    So that's how COD profited because people always brought it. Capcom was one of the best in the PS2 industry making great games screwed up in the PS3/360 generation with trying to globalize the audience with coordinating with western developers since most of their good talent left to work for Platinum Games and now since they been unsuccesful with globalizing their games they are making remasters.

    Resident Evil 5 had huge budget but a lot of people didn't like it was more of a action game rather than a horror series it was originally known for.

    So that's an example of the things that are sacrificed.
    So stuff that's once good then over time its just about sales but then again that's what matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    You don't even get what I was saying.

    What does every single developer who has gone next gen only now got in common?
    1/ They are successful.
    2/ They are big budget.
    3/ They dont limit their market to the local market place.
    Well yes it does apply to a lot of them but what's even better if someone comes up with an idea with less budget and something that is well developed sells a million such as Resogun which didn't have a huge budget but still done well.Put a another one on the list you mentioned and that is marketing which people get sucked into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yup and likely no PS3 version in sight.
    You understand I'm saying releasing TR on 360 is stupid, right?
    Yes mynd most people think it is stupid since Tomb Raider found it's success on PS console's plus it would sell way more multiplatform and the only reason they done it because MS money hatted them apparently to help out Square with marketing for the game. So that's why they decided to cross platform Tomb Raider on XBOX One/360 due to time exclusivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    And why ultimately the market place is doomed to make small budget inward looking games.

    I fully understand what the article is saying, and I'm trying to open you eyes to the fact that while the rest of the world struggled with that question a year or two ago, Japan may never get beyond that question. I don't have an issue with that if that where they want to continue to go.
    Well there was Minecraft and indie games some done very well but then again that's not Japanese but yes there are small budget games that do well.
    But being behind in the industry isn't always a bad thing . Like Tales Of Vesperia had a high budget when it released on 360 but didn't sell well so they didn't localize games for a long time due to demand they localized the other games and that's got them to release more games in the west.

    I know what your saying mynd but you have gone of topic it's true they are finding hard to keep up but people still demand for Japanese games and Japan is still the 4 or the 5th biggest market in the world think India took 4th spot a while back.Well budget wise for Japanese games MGS V:Phantom Pain and FFXV is the way to go and most people will get drawn to that.
    Last edited by AsterPhoenix; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:54.
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    It's not the time now. It was that time about 18 months ago.
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    Its not time because there are still so many people who have just upgraded to PS3 because how cheap it now is even with the PS2 it was the same people upgraded from PS1 just as PS3 came out. And it's still a small money maker not as big as the new gen brings in but it's still profit and most gaming companies will take anything now.


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    Yeah I could imagine most western companies will stop making PS3 ports of PS4 games within the next year or two. I got my PS3 within a year it released im not rushing into buying a PS4 still got to catch up with some PS3 games I haven't finished. Yeah Fifa 14 was released for PS2 and that was last year so you can never know how many PS3 games are still coming.
    Playing - Danganronpa 1 then i'll play 2(Vita), Samurai Warriors 4 (PS3)
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    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition...lobal_Release/


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