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    Apple v. United States: The Legal Battle Regarding The Future Of Your Privacy Rights

    If anyone has been paying attention to the news lately, you would have an inkling of an idea of what is going on in the world of law enforcement. You'd also have an inkling of what's going in the technology industry. But rarely will you see coverage where the two are mentioned in the same article. Furthermore, it is highly improbable that you would see anything at all regarding the relationship between the two. For the most part, the tech industry has been pretty jovial in assisting the government and its law enforcement apparatuses in criminal cases ranging from small infractions like sexting or harassment all the way to matters of national security significance.

    But, what may seem like a highly cooperative arrangement is contrary to the truth. Underneath this seemingly jovial if not cordial relationship, there is a massive legal battle brewing; the likes which will surely shake, if not destroy the very foundations of our system of a constitutional republic. Furthermore, this battle will decide just how unalienable our rights as free citizens really are and at the very least, give us an inside look at just how impartial our judicial and legislative systems really are. This isn't to say that I feel the courts or congress should decide anything in one extreme direction or the other. We all know that extreme decisions lack the measured, calculative and balanced thought process that more moderate decisions have. What I do hope for though is that the courts and congress do put a definable and unbreakable boundary on what our law enforcement apparatuses are allowed to do, ask or warrant for in criminal investigations. Furthermore, I do hope that a definable set of rules be applied to corporations on what they may be obligated to do for our law enforcement agencies. My biggest hope though, is that whatever the courts and congress decide, the unalienable rights of the citizen remain intact and even bolstered. I do not think that the following issue to be discussed should be handled as an issue of carte-blanche. Neither side should come out satisfied, that is to say, neither side should get everything they want.

    With regards to the actual battle taking place, it centers on the criminal acts of the San Bernardino shooters. The FBI is treating the issue as one of national security significance and ramifications. Apple is treating it as one of constitutional rights. I think it's a little bit about national security but much more about our constitutional rights. Regardless of either side's stance, here are the facts.

    FBI:
    - Demands that Apple write code to bypass the AES 256 bit encryption used to encrypt iOS by default.
    - Demands that Apple write this code in the form of a custom iOS firmware update.
    - Demands that the code written removes the pin input retries to allow for an unlimited number of chances to get into the phone. The number of retries is set to ten and after ten unsuccessful attempts, the phone's security wipes all the data permanently. This will ruin any further chances to obtain possibly vital information.
    - Demands that the code written allows for syncing to the iCloud without having to go to a familiar WiFi hotspot such as a home or often visited commercial establishment. The FBI's own IT guys reset the iCloud password without first obtaining the master pin pass-code to the iPhone in their possession used by one of the two shooters. This has effectively cut them out of the phone entirely.
    - Has stipulated that this is a one-off request and that Apple can keep the code to itself or destroy it after installing it onto the iPhone.

    Apple:
    - Asserts that writing such code to bypass the AES 256 bit encryption used to encrypt iOS by default would render every iPhone vulnerable. It further asserts that this would make the corporation a prime target for hackers and other domestic and foreign governments and law enforcement apparatuses who would have nefarious intent.
    - Asserts that writing such code would set a dangerous precedence legally and constitutionally and would violate the constitutional rights of all its millions of customers worldwide. It further asserts that it would never be a one-off situation and that once having complied, it would have to do so at every instance of request.
    - Asserts that writing such code is in violation of Apple's own 1st and 5th Amendment rights to freedom of expression and freedom from self-incrimination. It asserts that writing such code would compel the corporation to write expressive speech contrary to its own corporate culture of a guarantor of customer privacy. It further asserts that it would make it a prime accessory in any criminal and civil cases. Apple asserts that it does not keep any customer data that the customer doesn't expressly agree to on contract and that forcing it to break the encryption would make it liable for any criminal wrongdoings.
    - Asserts that writing such code would forever ruin its reputation as a guarantor to its millions of customers that Apple respects their right to privacy. Apple has asserted in this that this would effectively destroy its business.
    - Assert that congress should pass laws that would clearly define what obligations law enforcement has and what technology corporations can or can't be compelled to do to assist law enforcement. It further asserts that the Department of Justice has no jurisdiction in this fight because there is no legal precedence. It also asserts that the DOJ's use of the All Writs Acts - a law passed in 1789 - should not be used as the basis for arbitrary precedence setting.

    Now, for anyone who has reached this far and can reasonably comprehend, this is a massive legal battle. Of this there is no doubt. It's not often that I will side with a corporation. It's even less often that I would side with one I have a general disdain for. Apple has a rather colorful history with regards to its business. But as much disdain as I have for Apple, this is one of those times where I feel compelled to side with the corporation. But let's not forget the FBI and law enforcement in general. I don't think I can ever trust the FBI. I have an equal disdain for our law enforcement agencies as I do with corporations that seek to patent rectangles with rounded edges. But what makes me know better than to trust the FBI is that the FBI will break the law to enforce it. I cannot abide any agency that engages in such activities.

    I think that most important thing to take away from all this is that this battle brings to the forefront the issue of privacy rights. This isn't something that can easily be solved overnight, nor should a conclusion by the court system or congress be reached in that time span. There is no easy fix to this. Furthermore, I think that this issue should be decided by the people through referendum and put forth in the form of a constitutional amendment. Our rights are important and they should be treated with reverence lest we spiral farther into a police state of being.

    Anyway. I invite you all to a meaningful, cordial and respectful debate. I ask the moderators and administrators to monitor this thread heavily for trolling or baiting. I expect this thread to last more than a week and more than one page.

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    Deliberately programming in backdoors into encryption software renders it useless doesnt it?

    Apple have told the UK to $#@! off as well, Cameron wants strong encryption to be pretty much banned outright.
    Right now its an offence to not give up your passwords to password protected computers or hard drives int his country.
    Last edited by keefy; 02-26-2016 at 15:15.


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    This is one of those times, where the corporation is right. I may dislike Apple's other business practices but I have to side with them on the issue of data encryption and privacy rights. As I see it, the FBI's failures lie solely with the FBI, not Apple. The burden of investigation is on them and they can no sooner compel a corporation to violate the constitution than they can charge someone for disrupting government operations that would be against the individual's constitutional rights. The FBI has overstepped its bounds and a line in the sand has to be drawn.

    As for Cameron. He needs to be impeached and someone should take his place that would bolster and ensure Britain's sovereign rights.

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    Apple's been sided by a lot of companies, including big ones.
    The FBI is trying to get their way, they'll start by trying to get data from the iPhone (which btw they messed up themselves a lot due to changing info that was in the phone! This made it even harder
    for Apple to help them) and they want to acquire the data by forcing Apple via court in making a special OS for it so they can access it without codes and all that. Like Apple said, that means they basically give them a masterkey as with that OS they can access any phone and that'd be dangerous for all the privacy that people have now and that ain't even that much anymore these days.
    If they can force Apple to do this, there's a solid big chance they WILL do this to other companies too and most likely they can make those bend even easier.

    While I sincerely hope Apple will win this case, I do think that the FBI will try and get their way, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they manipulate the system to get their way.

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    This is one of those news stories and issues I've been keeping close tabs on. I know that Apple has the backing of Google, Microsoft, Twitter, Facebook (for what little it's truly worth) and a bunch of smaller corporations. I've never seen the tech industry rally behind another competitor in this manner before. This is the kind of push-back that's been a long time coming.

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    I don't think this whole thing should've ever been made public. I think through closed doors, Apple and the authorities could have worked out some agreement.

    In matters of national security, we should be able to know who terrorists were talking to. As far as I'm concerned they don't get U.S. citizen rights when they're terrorists. So people saying this infringes on our rights...so you're siding with a dead terrorist who murdered innocent Americans...you think they deserve rights?! Give me a break.

    Out of sight, out of mind and this would've never been an issue in the media. I don't feel the goverment has any right to intrude in our personal lives but in matters of national security and terrorism, compromises need to be made. They could make sure there's the smallest team possible to do the actual work and then have 'em sign NDAs (non disclosure agreements).

    Let's just say for example that the phone has information about a future terrorist attack in our country...how do you think the public would feel AFTER another attack to know we had info to prevent it all along?!

    I understand both sides and agree that no backdoors should ever be implemented. However, that's different from particular, isolated cases where our safety and security is at hand. This should have been done behind closed doors and without the public knowing anything about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    I don't think this whole thing should've ever been made public. I think through closed doors, Apple and the authorities could have worked out some agreement.
    Isn't something as important as this (privacy) worth public knowledge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    So people saying this infringes on our rights...
    Well it does, doesn't it? Being concerned about your privacy does not mean you support terrorism. The privacy concerns are very real and very significant. I guess it depends on the future for your country you envisage. Mine does not include any thought-crime agency's though even though I am in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    ...but in matters of national security and terrorism, compromises need to be made.
    Isn't it this compromise they are trying to work out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    I understand both sides and agree that no backdoors should ever be implemented. However, that's different from particular, isolated cases where our safety and security is at hand.
    Ah! But is it? Your safety and security is the sole reason being used to access this information. There's merit to that argument but there's the more sinister side of overarching governmental powers that people are worried about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    As for Cameron. He needs to be impeached and someone should take his place that would bolster and ensure Britain's sovereign rights.
    Cameron? You mean our very own corporate-buddy, big business, stuff-your-fat-privelaged-face-with-pies Prime Minister David Cameron? I'd like to say I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire but the chances of him being on fire and me being in the vicinity are unfortunatly slim. Still, there's always a chance i guess. Ah! Cherish the thought
    Last edited by Major; 02-28-2016 at 09:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    I don't think this whole thing should've ever been made public. I think through closed doors, Apple and the authorities could have worked out some agreement.
    I think that this is where you and I are going to differ entirely. I think that this whole thing being public is a good thing. It puts to the forefront many peoples' worries about the state of our law enforcement agencies; what they've been trying to do, what our tech corporations have been subjected to or obligated to do in the name of national security and the whole issue of our constitutional rights.

    In matters of national security, we should be able to know who terrorists were talking to. As far as I'm concerned they don't get U.S. citizen rights when they're terrorists. So people saying this infringes on our rights...so you're siding with a dead terrorist who murdered innocent Americans...you think they deserve rights?! Give me a break.
    I won't disagree that in matters of national security there may be exigent circumstances that would require we give law enforcement leeway, however, I don't think that leeway should extend to situations where the crime has already been perpetrated. Furthermore, I think that law enforcement has beaten the national security horse dead or overused that card. One might even go so far as to say that law enforcement has been wholly inept at preventing such incidences of criminal acts in spite of being granted innumerable rights and privileges under such laws like the Patriot Act, National Defense Authorization Act, the FISA Courts and congress. At this point, granting them even more leeway might be rather counterproductive at the very least and only serves to set even more dangerous precedence.

    I think that another thing that deserves attention is that many of these laws and privileges granted in favor of law enforcement have been to the detriment of the citizens' rights. I don't think that one's rights should be sacrificed for temporary safety or for what is quite literally the laws of probability of human nature in its capacity to commit heinous criminal acts. That just doesn't sit well with me.

    Out of sight, out of mind and this would've never been an issue in the media. I don't feel the goverment has any right to intrude in our personal lives but in matters of national security and terrorism, compromises need to be made. They could make sure there's the smallest team possible to do the actual work and then have 'em sign NDAs (non disclosure agreements).

    Let's just say for example that the phone has information about a future terrorist attack in our country...how do you think the public would feel AFTER another attack to know we had info to prevent it all along?!

    I understand both sides and agree that no backdoors should ever be implemented. However, that's different from particular, isolated cases where our safety and security is at hand. This should have been done behind closed doors and without the public knowing anything about it.
    I respect where you're going with this but I have reiterate that keeping this issue out of sight and out of mind of the public is not a good idea. Law enforcement agencies have been given too much leeway and slack regarding transparency. So much so that they're now demanding things be done their way under an arcane law like the All Writs Act. The law was never meant to give law enforcement carte-blanche over the issue of privacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    Cameron? You mean our very own corporate-buddy, big business, stuff-your-fat-privelaged-face-with-pies Prime Minister David Cameron? I'd like to say I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire but the chances of him being on fire and me being in the vicinity are unfortunatly slim. Still, there's always a chance i guess. Ah! Cherish the thought
    LOL. I can see the patriotism in your speech.

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    Apples losse this im done with Apple

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Dj- View Post
    Apples losse this im done with Apple
    The amount of sense made in this post isn't that much.. o.o

    Why would you be done with Apple if they lose? Apple is doing their best to protect people's privacy, but don't forget they're up against the FBI & it wouldn't at all surprise me if they get the typical treatment that they're better than others and thus get the green light on forcing them into making it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    I think that this is where you and I are going to differ entirely. I think that this whole thing being public is a good thing. It puts to the forefront many peoples' worries about the state of our law enforcement agencies; what they've been trying to do, what our tech corporations have been subjected to or obligated to do in the name of national security and the whole issue of our constitutional rights.



    I won't disagree that in matters of national security there may be exigent circumstances that would require we give law enforcement leeway, however, I don't think that leeway should extend to situations where the crime has already been perpetrated. Furthermore, I think that law enforcement has beaten the national security horse dead or overused that card. One might even go so far as to say that law enforcement has been wholly inept at preventing such incidences of criminal acts in spite of being granted innumerable rights and privileges under such laws like the Patriot Act, National Defense Authorization Act, the FISA Courts and congress. At this point, granting them even more leeway might be rather counterproductive at the very least and only serves to set even more dangerous precedence.

    I think that another thing that deserves attention is that many of these laws and privileges granted in favor of law enforcement have been to the detriment of the citizens' rights. I don't think that one's rights should be sacrificed for temporary safety or for what is quite literally the laws of probability of human nature in its capacity to commit heinous criminal acts. That just doesn't sit well with me.



    I respect where you're going with this but I have reiterate that keeping this issue out of sight and out of mind of the public is not a good idea. Law enforcement agencies have been given too much leeway and slack regarding transparency. So much so that they're now demanding things be done their way under an arcane law like the All Writs Act. The law was never meant to give law enforcement carte-blanche over the issue of privacy.



    LOL. I can see the patriotism in your speech.

    I see what you're saying. I guess what I was trying to say is that I agree with Apple but I also see the other side of the argument. I don't want our rights violated but I also want our families to remain safe in this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Dj- View Post
    Apples losse this im done with Apple
    I'm glad you have showcased your complete lack of understanding of the issue. You should be siding with Apple on this one.

    It's important to note that this phone was a work phone ... and they would be able to see the phone records for this phone, among other things. The company was also supposed to install software on it that would allow it to be unlocked, but they didn't. The terrorist's personal phone was already destroyed and the FBI just recently admitted there's probably nothing of value on the phone. The issue is not that Apple is refusing to give the FBI data from the phone. They already have complied with the FBI and given them all iCloud and other data they could. The issue here that Apple is standing up for is the FBI's idiotic request telling Apple they need to create a completely new Operating System that can be circumvented with tools, tools that will inevitably fall into the hands of people you do NOT want having them. It opens up the door for anyone with access to these tools to be able to hack into a now permanently vulnerable, back-doored version of IOS, putting over 600 million people's privacy at stake. It is the most idiotic request imaginable, and Apple has every right to stand up and fight against this ... and it's also why so many people are in support of Apple on the matter ... at least the ones that aren't idiots and have actually spent more than 3 seconds researching the issue and not just going by what the media has twisted this into.

    This was never a matter of Apple not handing over data. The FBI already screwed up that chance by trying to access the phone and triggering its passcode fail safes within the phone. Apple has complied to the full extent that they are currently able, but they can't give the FBI anything else. If there was some sort of agreement between the FBI and Apple that doesn't involve undermining the security of over half a billion people worldwide, I'd be all for it. On top of that ... if Apple did this the FBI wouldn't need a warrant, they'd be able to use tools to hack any phone they want ... tools that ... like I stated previously ... will inevitably reach the hands of horrible people. The government's security is already crap as it is ... with the IRS recently being hacked for instance ... we do not need more of this $#@!.

    If you side with the FBI on this, you need help. You cannot blindly follow the government as your rights are being taken away. It is our very right to stand up to the government if we feel they are doing something wrong ... it is even our right to overthrow the government and start over if we feel they've become too power-hungry and corrupt. But Americans are weaklings these days. But I'm glad people are actually joining together on this issue and siding with Apple. There is a lot more at stake here than people realize.
    Last edited by Brandon; 02-26-2016 at 22:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    I see what you're saying. I guess what I was trying to say is that I agree with Apple but I also see the other side of the argument. I don't want our rights violated but I also want our families to remain safe in this country.
    Yeah. The safety of people shouldn't be dismissed out of hand either. But like what Brandon posted, this is a much larger issue than people realize. Law enforcement agencies shouldn't have the kind of power they're now exerting and technology corporations shouldn't be subjected to this kind of abuse.

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    I salute Apple for taking a stand on the matter. I think a reason why this may be getting made public is partially due to the government trying to have more control over the internet, phone convos, etc. etc. for years. If Apple were to just cave in without any effort, that would give the government more fuel to continue to push the control agenda more imo. Also, on top of that, it would be another situation of the majority being punished for what the minority does. I don't see it as fair for party A to get punished as well for what party B did, when the parties had no interaction with each other in the first place. This situation can not be addressed with a blanket approach. If there was a way for Apple to provide certain information, without leaking of how to break into data from outside viewers, this situation may not be as severe as it is. Sacrificing the security of many, to bring down a few isn't a win in my book. Granted, I do see how this could form a loophole for criminals in the future. Even in that instance, it would fall on the companies to reduce exploiting of such natures and not the government imo. I thought for the most part the US is suppose to be under some form of a free market? Let me know if I am wrong.
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    FBI has every right to check this particular phone under the circumstances as they have probable cause to seek the information within. That's standard investigative work. However, the issue is that they $#@!ed up and reset the phone's password, and now they demand Apple to provide the master key to all iphones, which would jeopardize the safety of all iphones and the data on them if it was ever leaked.

    So the FBI's reasoning is that they have to put hundreds of millions of people around the globe, not just Americans, into the boiler to get some potential information out of one phone from one case. Because according to the government it somehow makes us all safer having our privacy exposed and security dismantled.

    The physical equivalent is giving every person (criminals included) a key to everyone's home because it might make it easier for the police to get inside a house to stop a burglary somewhere. It's a ridiculous notion and makes no sense.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 02-27-2016 at 00:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    FBI has every right to check this particular phone under the circumstances as they have probable cause to seek the information within. That's standard investigative work. However, the issue is that they $#@!ed up and reset the phone's password, and now they demand Apple to provide the master key to all iphones, which would jeopardize the safety of all iphones and the data on them if it was ever leaked.

    So the FBI's reasoning is that they have to put hundreds of millions of people around the globe, not just Americans, into the boiler to get some potential information out of one phone from one case. Because according to the government it somehow makes us all safer having our privacy exposed and security dismantled.

    The physical equivalent is giving every person (criminals included) a key to everyone's home because it might make it easier for the police to get inside a house to stop a burglary somewhere. It's a ridiculous notion and makes no sense.
    This ^^^^^^


    The FBI shot themselves in the foot. Apple was helping them and they $#@!ed up, so now they're trying to push it upon Apple to shed THEM in a bad light so they can try and get what they want. Apple is just not taking it and realises that the end result from this isn't just about that one iPhone but that it will end up in compromising a lot of privacy towards them which is something they've always protected and stood for.
    The fact that there's major companies (i.e. FB, Twitter, Microsoft ...) are supporting Apple and also set their foot straight down in their support says more than enough.

    I'm very glad this went public. If this case wasn't thrown out into public, there'd be more of a chance that they'd use the court backdoors to get their wants (not needs, WANTS).
    Not to forget that we've got the right to know what's playing around this case, since it's result is quite big nonetheless the outcome, whether it be FBI winning or Apple (let's hope Apple does).


    Some information here; new court files about the case;

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    So at this point there is no way to hack into this one individual phone? I find that very hard to believe. I'm for them not doing this if it risks everyone with an apple product but I seriously do not believe Apple cannot unlock this one phone without put millions of others at risk. Imo this is simply Apple saying we won't be bullied to go against our TOA and if we do it for you every other government in the world will want us to do the same. Don't set the precedent and there will never be a future argument for this. But it does make their company look kind of bad for this situation when you take it at face value. I simply do not buy the BS that there is no way to get into this individual phone. That would be awful security otherwise. I think this is just Apple digging their heels in. Not like I really blame them but this should be handled on a situation by situation basis. I think in this situation it should have all been done in private and helped the FBI. But it's their company.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PS4freak View Post
    So at this point there is no way to hack into this one individual phone? I find that very hard to believe.
    The key is >2048 bit and also requires a trusted certificate from Apple. It would take a supercomputer at least a few centuries to get in. Even physical modifications is difficult, as Apple has designed the iPhone 5 to partially detect crossed soldered wires which will brick the phone. FBI knows tampering with the device could ruin any chance of getting inside.

    It's not 100% impenetrable. There may be holes in the software itself, but the iOS environment is pretty tight, and it doesn't necessarily guarantee access to the data. Even if they do get the data I'm pretty sure iPhones 5 encrypt their stored data already, right? I'm not sure on that one, but I know Android 5.x and up does so I wouldn't be surprised if Apple does too. It's become basic at this point. So, it is actually a tremendous amount of luck and effort to get in.

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    I don't think this is about one phone for Apple or for the FBI. The FBI has been vocal in its criticism of Apple's phone encryption long before San Bernardino. I also don't believe the FBI flubbed the password. This phone is being used a vehicle for the FBI to be able to crack any and all phones. They are trying to establish precedent. They can say they just want access to this "one phone", but does anyone really believe that? If Apple gave in to the FBI and said "ok....but just this once", we all know how that would go down the road. And it would expand way beyond Apple.

    Good article:

    http://www.wired.com/2016/02/forcing...ous-precedent/

    Key point:

    If the government is successful in forcing Apple to help decrypt the phone in this case, it would create a dangerous precedent that would allow the government to continue coming back again and again to decrypt all kinds of devices in all kinds of circumstances, far beyond national security.
    Last edited by Christopher; 02-27-2016 at 15:51.











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  24. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I don't think this is about one phone for Apple or for the FBI. The FBI has been vocal in its criticism of Apple's phone encryption long before San Bernardino. I also don't believe the FBI flubbed the password. This phone is being used a vehicle for the FBI to be able to crack any and all phones. They are trying to establish precedent. They can say they just want access to this "one phone", but does anyone really believe that? If Apple gave in to the FBI and said "ok....but just this once", we all know how that would go down the road. And it would expand way beyond Apple.

    Good article:

    http://www.wired.com/2016/02/forcing...ous-precedent/

    Key point:
    That's the only reason I see this being a big deal. If it was as simple as hey we need to get into this phone., Apple would gotten into the phone in secret without FBI presence, observed the process of them obtaining information, then Apple could essentially brick the phone or just destroy it. That way they were guaranteed no funny business happened. I'm sure the FBI just wants the key so they can hack into phones at will. That is a dangerous thought for sure. This could be done to appease both sides is all in saying but what it sounds like it's both are telling each other $#@! you your going to do it my way.


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    Well, I didn't expect such a civil debate here. I'd like to thank everyone for contributing.

    On Topic:

    To be more precise PS4freak, it's not about both sides telling each other to essentially "F-off your doing it my way". It's about the FBI saying, "F-you and your constitutional rights" and Apple retorting with, "F-you and your attempts at advancing the surveillance state". This has and will never be about that one phone. Apple complied with all of the FBI's requests for information/data and on most requests had same-day turnaround. This is about the FBI wanting access to an encrypted ecosystem. It's a means to avoid those "pesky" constitutional requirements regarding property and privacy rights.

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    The FBI has gone about this all wrong. That is the only reason this case has gotten as big as it is. Their request will undermine the security of over half a billion users and Apple is right for standing up to this. It is an utterly ridiculous request. If the FBI and Apple could work together and find a way to hand data over (with a warrant) that doesn't involve putting so many people at risk, there wouldn't a problem. But that is not the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I don't think this is about one phone for Apple or for the FBI. The FBI has been vocal in its criticism of Apple's phone encryption long before San Bernardino. I also don't believe the FBI flubbed the password. This phone is being used a vehicle for the FBI to be able to crack any and all phones. They are trying to establish precedent. They can say they just want access to this "one phone", but does anyone really believe that? If Apple gave in to the FBI and said "ok....but just this once", we all know how that would go down the road. And it would expand way beyond Apple.

    Good article:

    http://www.wired.com/2016/02/forcing...ous-precedent/

    Key point:

    If the government is successful in forcing Apple to help decrypt the phone in this case, it would create a dangerous precedent that would allow the government to continue coming back again and again to decrypt all kinds of devices in all kinds of circumstances, far beyond national security.
    Actually the point is, and it's something that seems to pass right by people, is Apple can't even decrypt the phone. Apple has already handed over all the data they have been able to ... iCloud and otherwise ... and there's been nothing of value in the data so far. The FBI even admitted there's probably nothing of value on the phone itself since it was the terrorist's work phone and their personal phone was already destroyed and they don't have access to it. Apple can't get into the phone ... they're not refusing to give data to the FBI. Apple has always complied with the FBI and given data to them before so this isn't a matter of Apple saying "nuh uh ... you can't have the data!" They've fully complied as much as they can already. I am dumbfounded by how many news outlets have a complete lack of understanding of the issue. Just taking a quick glance at Apple's letter to the public helps clear a lot of things up: http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

    And yes, the FBI flubbed the password. That's already been established: http://www.techinsider.io/fbi-confir...d-reset-2016-2 It is clear that, like you said, the FBI is using this as a vehicle to undermine everyone's security. And THAT is the key point here.
    Last edited by Brandon; 02-27-2016 at 20:08.

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    The FBI wants Apple to create a tool that will bypass the security and create a backdoor. I haven't seen Apple say that this is impossible (unless I missed it). They have said that it would open up every phone to this hack.

    In today’s digital world, the “key” to an encrypted system is a piece of information that unlocks the data, and it is only as secure as the protections around it. Once the information is known, or a way to bypass the code is revealed, the encryption can be defeated by anyone with that knowledge.
    The government suggests this tool could only be used once, on one phone. But that’s simply not true. Once created, the technique could be used over and over again, on any number of devices. In the physical world, it would be the equivalent of a master key, capable of opening hundreds of millions of locks — from restaurants and banks to stores and homes. No reasonable person would find that acceptable.
    edit: just read some earlier stories that suggest that Apple would not be able to access the encrypted data even if they got passed the lock screen. So yeah....I don't get why that isn't the end of it.
    Last edited by Christopher; 02-27-2016 at 21:34.











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    I think so far we are all in agreement.

    Wow this is a first.

    It's important not just for USA but the whole world since millions around the world buy Apple phones and products but if a ruling against Apple is made it could open the door to other companies encryorions as well via future laws and court cases.
    Last edited by keefy; 02-27-2016 at 21:32.


  29. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    The FBI wants Apple to create a tool that will bypass the security and create a backdoor. I haven't seen Apple say that this is impossible (unless I missed it). They have said that it would open up every phone to this hack.



    edit: just read some earlier stories that suggest that Apple would not be able to access the encrypted data even if they got passed the lock screen. So yeah....I don't get why that isn't the end of it.
    It isn't the end of it because ... as has been explained already, that is not the issue. They're using that excuse which, like you said, should be be done and over with ... as a means to invade our privacy even more than they already have. They want Apple to create a new version of iOS (not just a set of tools) that undermines the security of the OS so they can use tools to hack any phone they get their hands on, which is stupid, because anyone that gains knowledge of these tools and the phone's new security flaw (and they always do), can get a hold of anyone's phone and break into it. And who knows what other security flaws this could open up? Hackers might even be able to find a way to do this remotely. Like Nerevar said it's like giving everyone a master key to open everyone's home, criminals included, so that it will make it easier for the FBI to get into those homes. It is an absolutely ridiculous idea. But the FBI can't force Apple to write new code. That is one of several things being argued against the FBI, not to mention the ramifications of this stupid request if it were to succeed in passing the courts. It's a world issue, not just the United States. There are over 600 million iPhones worldwide.
    Last edited by Brandon; 02-27-2016 at 22:08.

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