Page 1 of 3 1 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 67
  1. #1
    Veteran
    MacP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    PSN ID
    Pul3y
    Age
    29
    Posts
    4,131
    Rep Power
    76

    UK referendum on EU membership. In or Out?

    I'm surprised nobody has made a thread about this!

    So with all the confusing information about us leaving the EU and staying in the EU, I have made this thread to talk about the fact's of staying in/out, so no made up statistics opinion's should be backed up by evidence.

    This thread should help you choose what to vote at the polling station because in my eyes the media are just confusing things.

    I'll start! I am voting to stay part of the Union because of trade agreements that would help our economy, and I believe settler's from the EU contribute a lot to our economy.
    Keep it simple!

  2. #2
    Master Poster
    Shingo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    PSN ID
    Swordsman-45
    Posts
    3,330
    Rep Power
    53
    Items User name styleOne Piece
    As an complete outsider, I wish UK stay with EU, the more divided the world, the worse.
    #lovegaming


    MyAnimeList

    Stop preordering games! Stop buying day1 games! Stop being idiots!

  3. #3
    Forum Elder
    Major's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,581
    Rep Power
    28
    I'm voting to stay in.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacP View Post
    ...and I believe settler's from the EU contribute a lot to our economy.
    Yes they do. Evidence for this is already out there and I agree with the opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shingo View Post
    As an complete outsider, I wish UK stay with EU, the more divided the world, the worse.
    Absolutely.

    I think the result is going to be very, very, very close. A lot like the Scottish referendum. A vote to leave the EU is a vote for ignorance, selfishness and isolationism. Tiny little islands will have no chance to succeed against the large economies of the world. It's a pipe dream to think so. That's just my opinion though.

  4. #4
    Forum Sage
    MjW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    PSN ID
    MjW-
    Age
    34
    Posts
    7,714
    Rep Power
    111
    Items VitaiPhone BlackGran Turismo 5PS3 FatTommy Vercetti3DS
    I agree. Dismantling Europe is not a solution to eurozone's problems. EU should be rebuilt with the focus in democracy and the people.

    ~Corporate Media Propaganda - Welcome to your Daily Matrix~

  5. #5
    Master Poster
    K2D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    PSN ID
    Cathode
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,458
    Rep Power
    87
    Items LuluYunaDaft Punk
    If you opt out of EU, opt out of EUS* while your at it, or else you'll still have laws and directives pulled over eyes/heads/necks.

    *A membership Norway's currently part of.





  6. #6
    Superior Member
    Vichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    PSN ID
    Vichael
    Age
    23
    Posts
    623
    Rep Power
    38
    Items The Beatles
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingo View Post
    As an complete outsider, I wish UK stay with EU, the more divided the world, the worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by MjW View Post
    I agree. Dismantling Europe is not a solution to eurozone's problems. EU should be rebuilt with the focus in democracy and the people.
    My thoughts exactly. I'll be voting to stay in.

  7. #7
    Forum Sage
    MedicDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Age
    25
    Posts
    8,993
    Rep Power
    91
    I'll be voting to stay in, better the devil you know and all that jazz.

  8. #8
    Elite Guru
    jj03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Age
    39
    Posts
    5,143
    Rep Power
    87
    Items Manchester United
    out...lets get the $#@! out..

  9. #9
    Forum Sage

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    33
    Posts
    9,145
    Rep Power
    118
    As an American, I don't have a dog in this fight. But if I'm speaking at all, I think Britons should vote to get out of the EU. Great Britain did much better when it did things alone or worked with other nations on a per nation basis. Also, I think that the longer you guys stay in, the more your sovereignty is eroded. You guys can't seem to even take a dump without asking for permission.

  10. #10
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Varsh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    UK
    PSN ID
    UK-Varsh
    Age
    34
    Posts
    7,152
    Rep Power
    105
    Items User name style
    Around half of the European "states" (countries) have expressed the wish for political reform because of that very reason Ezekiel. We're wanting to have our separate laws but at the same time have a constitutional dependency of sharing customs, free trade, open borders, and eventually a single currency and power sharing. With the current way Europe is it's far from that. With the threat of the UK leaving the EU there have been a lot of policy changes that are currently now, not just being talked about, but have now been set in motion. Of course these things are rather minor compared to what really needs to be done, but the major issue is the banking sector, which needs a HUGE reform and the UK is currently the most vocal on this currently, but there are steps being put towards this reform already. It's the main reason we haven't joined the Euro yet. If we were part of the Euro then we would be in more $#@! than the Spanish, Greeks, Italians, Irish, and many others. Thankfully - as much as many might hate me for saying this - the Tories are sorting the debt Brown got us in, but it has been a harsh, but needed, road.

    Having said all of that, I am 100% pro-EU. Personally I felt that we should have joined the Euro years ago at the height of the UK economy when Blair was in power, but knowing now what I didn't know then, I'm glad that we didn't. I'd prefer it if things stayed the same as it were now and wait for us to fully join the Euro later down the line. Once that is done then there's no going back.

    If we were to leave the EU then I'm moving out of the UK. Sure we pay 15bn-ish per year for our membership in the EU, but that 15bn translates into something infinitely larger economy wise. Without it we'd be screwed.

  11. #11
    Forum Sage

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    33
    Posts
    9,145
    Rep Power
    118
    I think that Britain keeping its currency was not only a smart move economically but a wise move politically. Once you hand over the power of your currency to a foreign power, that's it. You're stuck with whatever that foreign power does or wills. As for your sovereign rights? I think much more meaningful reform needs to occur for it to be a viable option to remain in the EU. I also think Britian - like the United States - needs to reevaluate its alliances and treaties. As things stand now, both countries are getting screwed by the others. Both countries contribute far more and do not receive their fair share in return.

  12. #12
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Varsh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    UK
    PSN ID
    UK-Varsh
    Age
    34
    Posts
    7,152
    Rep Power
    105
    Items User name style
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    ...contribute far more and do not receive their fair share in return.
    That money we contribute to be part of the EU I feel is more than enough in what we gain in return. Without the EU membership our businesses will have to re-evaluate their business model, and the larger businesses possible having to move out of London because of the extra import and export duties levied onto them. As Europe is the UK's largest market, it would be insane not to stay in.

    Just imagine the world's central commercial hub suddenly being cut off for months while trying to fix all of the monetisation issues it's facing, then all of the HQ's of dozens of European businesses being forced out of the UK due to their largest Euro market no longer in the UK. This then causes a ripple where many of the current European workers will have to move out of the UK or apply for a working VISA as the freedom of movement has gone.

    This is just a very small potential of what could happen.

  13. Likes Major likes this post
  14. #13
    Forum Sage

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    33
    Posts
    9,145
    Rep Power
    118
    I mean no disrespect with what I'm about to say, Varsh, but I think your reasoning is pretty shortsighted. You're thinking in the short term and that's not a very healthy way to think about these things in the economic or political front. I know for certain that the short term is where it would hurt Britain the most. That is not in dispute. What you should be thinking about is the long term effects and to a lesser extent, the medium term effects of what getting out of the EU would have over the UK economy and political structure.

    As things stand now, you guys have multiple economic related bubbles that need to be burst. You have a housing bubble wherein there is too much artificially created demand via the influx of migrants who really have no jobs waiting for them and this is driving up housing costs through the roof. Your own citizens are having trouble finding homes at decent prices. You have another trade-related bubble by way of over-regulation of products and services that enter the rest of Europe through your markets and that of the United States. This is driving up the costs of products and services because now your government has to install VATs and other import duties and customs on products and services that should otherwise never cost the amount they do and would never be justified in doing so. The fact is, you guys are over-regulated and over-burdened to the hilt. The whole economic and political structure of the EU is unsustainable. (The same can be said of the United States.)

    Like I said before. I mean no disrespect. I just think you guys are falling for the trap of looking at things in the short term when you should be looking at things in the long term instead. It's a mentality that has to go if you guys are to have any meaningful debate on the subject or if you're going to make an informed decision.

  15. #14
    Forum Elder
    Major's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,581
    Rep Power
    28
    Ezekiel, the housing bubble isn't being created by the influx of migrants, although it's perceived as a factor. The main contributors are lack of investment and poor regulation on part of the government but also the way in which the wealthy buy up properties and use them as an investment (all allowed due to poor regulation) rather than that housing being used responsibly by all parties (private and public) to house those in need. You're not suggesting the influx of migrants was not a forseen consequence of the free movement of people I'm sure. Since the financial bubble burst in 2008 not a lot has changed either, very little to be specific. Housing costs, both rental and mortgage are very high in the UK yet it's something everybody needs; a roof over their head.

    The over-regulation of trade is not necessarily over regulated although it is within the EU structure, something many have a problem with, and to try and sit outside of that and continue 'business as normal' is a poor idea when reform from within is what is needed, not lifting up the drawbridge and saying bye bye to a most beneficial agreement.

    Overall it is for the greater good that we are part of the EU and leaving has dire long-term consequences for Britain's economy. All sensible economists agree on this point. Britain standing alone as an economic power is a far less attractive option than staying in the EU and fighting to make it work. We don't have massive amounts of things we actually produce in the UK anymore, a massive part of our economy is made up of financial services, a large part of which trade is done with the EU. Britain standing alone against the economic powerhouses of the US, China and the EU is also not something I think is a viable long-term solution. Better in than out say I and that's exactly how I am going to vote.

  16. #15
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Varsh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    UK
    PSN ID
    UK-Varsh
    Age
    34
    Posts
    7,152
    Rep Power
    105
    Items User name style
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    As things stand now, you guys have multiple economic related bubbles that need to be burst. You have a housing bubble wherein there is too much artificially created demand via the influx of migrants who really have no jobs waiting for them and this is driving up housing costs through the roof. Your own citizens are having trouble finding homes at decent prices. You have another trade-related bubble by way of over-regulation of products and services that enter the rest of Europe through your markets and that of the United States. This is driving up the costs of products and services because now your government has to install VATs and other import duties and customs on products and services that should otherwise never cost the amount they do and would never be justified in doing so. The fact is, you guys are over-regulated and over-burdened to the hilt. The whole economic and political structure of the EU is unsustainable. (The same can be said of the United States.)
    Migrants isn't a problem, in fact new figures have been released and although there have been over 5-6m migrants, just as many people emigrated too. The total difference was approximately 800,000 inhabitants. Considering that's for an entire year, that is very low population growth. They aren't snapping up the houses like you think they are, but the shortage of housing in the UK is due to landlords snapping up cheap housing, doing them up, then selling at a profit, or using them as an investment for retirement - something I have been thinking of doing myself as there's a lot of money in it. Because of this the house prices is driven up exponentially so new buyers can't afford any new housing so they either have to rent (dead money) or stay living at home. People well into their 50's are still living with their parents these days because of this.

    I'm not sure what you're on about with the VAT, but the UK has always been one of the most taxed countries in the world. Import and export duty within the EU is non-existent because of the open borders and free trade. But if we left then this is where businesses will immediately suffer.

    You might say that I'm being short sighted but honestly I'm not. I have been researching this with many other friends of mine for the last few years. Some are pro-EU and some are Brexit, but we have all concluded so far that, even though those that are on the Brexit side, they can't see the UK's economy stabilising for a good 40+ years. Considering that we are still massively financially in debt (and heading to the black very quickly I might add, but it would still take another 5/6 years to recover), we can't afford another recession right now. If we do then we'll be worse off than Greece and Italy.

    There is no disrespect Ezekiel, it's all good banter and knowledge, but 2nd hand information is never as accurate as local information (let alone the States and the EU operate differently), and we're all talking about it daily here. This is really a make or break situation and I hope the majority stay in the EU.

  17. #16
    Dedicated Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,408
    Rep Power
    64
    I'm voting to leave.

    Many of the same people and institutions that claim the British economy is going to go down said the same thing when trying to get the UK to join the Euro - they certainly got that wrong.

    I think a lot of the voting intentions in this referendum will come down to how people 'feel'. For me, even if the British economy did shrink a bit (and I do not think it will), I'd personally choose to be bit poorer if it meant we could choose what to do with our own money. Independence is more important to me, but I know others have different priorities.

    I've heard some people in political discussions use examples of cheaper holidays and lower mobile phone tariffs as reasons to stay in the EU - I certainly am not going to be persuaded to give my consent to be governed by a distant bureaucracy by such trivial things. To me, this seems like a sign of decadence.

    On top of that, many arguments seem to revolve around the notion that we will not know what will happen if the UK leaves. All I can say is that it appears we have lost our backbone and the pioneering spirit that has been a strong part of British history. Now it seems, it is better that we don't rock the boat. Churchill's quote springs to mind: 'A nation that forgets its past has no future'.

    I fully expect the remain vote to win out though. The remain campaign is being bankrolled by large banks and there are far too many vested interests at stake. I think it is a great shame we are going to throw away the opportunity we have, but such is life.

  18. #17
    Forum Sage

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    33
    Posts
    9,145
    Rep Power
    118
    I think it's the money interests that are pushing all the doom and gloom. They're attempting to scare you all into submission by using their power over your currency to essentially threaten you with economic disaster. You know how one can tell when something is a bad idea? Pay close attention to what the money and financial interests say, or don't say but imply in a roundabout way. Your sovereignty is at stake here. They're using everything they can to get you all to vote to stay in. I know I may sound conspiracy theorist-ish with what I'm saying but look at everything going on.

    You guys - like the United States - do have a migrant problem though yours' is a different sort of migrant problem.
    You guys - like the United States - do have an over-regulated economy. This is why Europe has engaged in protectionist economic policies.
    You guys - like the United States - do have an issue with being unable to engage in self-determination because much of what you do is dictated by Brussels.

    I know I may not have the whole story as a foreigner but from what I can and have read and understood, this is the vibe I get with regards to the Euro-zone in general. You've ceded too much control to a foreign entity and money interests.

  19. #18
    Forum Elder
    Major's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,581
    Rep Power
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    You guys - like the United States - do have a migrant problem though yours' is a different sort of migrant problem.
    So what's the problem exactly? I can't see any apart form a perceived problem but that's basically xenophobia that's as old as the hills. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    You guys - like the United States - do have an over-regulated economy. This is why Europe has engaged in protectionist economic policies.
    You mean to help protect ourselves from ever enlargening economic threats from the likes of the Chinese economy. Why would you not do that? Who also has not done that? You think we stand a better chance alone? This tiny island? Forget it, that's a ludicrous idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    You've ceded too much control to a foreign entity and money interests.
    The money interests are located in the City of London, not Westminster or Britain itself. To leave the EU means a lot of that will more than likely leave the UK which is not a good thing for Britain. Not a good thing at all.

    We have plenty of control in the UK and problems within the NHS or with benefit fraud or any myriad other problems people like to harp on about don't really have much to do with the EU or membership of the EU at all. It's pride that's at stake, a sense of patriotism that has no value in these post-imperial and globally economic times. A sense of patriotism that we somehow lose our identity by being part of the EU. If you need that isolationism to find your own identity then you're already lost sheep.

    The problems we face are global (like food and resources) and we all face them, the EU, the US, Asia and Russia too, and if we fracture ourselves into ever smaller and smaller divisions then we cannot ever expect to elevate ourselves out of it. You may find strength in isolation for the short term but rest assured that it will only lead to more war, poverty and general misery for the human population as a whole over the long-term.

  20. Likes Shingo , MjW likes this post
  21. #19
    Veteran
    MacP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    PSN ID
    Pul3y
    Age
    29
    Posts
    4,131
    Rep Power
    76
    From my very own informed decision's is that it is too great a risk to leave we would be isolated, the UK imo would be $#@!ed.

    With the rise of these global superpowers it would be ignorant to think it would be the day's of Winston Churchill. When I hear the leave side keep brining him up, it give's me more fuel to vote to stay in.
    Keep it simple!

  22. #20
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Varsh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    UK
    PSN ID
    UK-Varsh
    Age
    34
    Posts
    7,152
    Rep Power
    105
    Items User name style
    Quote Originally Posted by Valefor View Post
    Now it seems, it is better that we don't rock the boat. Churchill's quote springs to mind: 'A nation that forgets its past has no future'.
    This was said in a time and age where economies were still very inward thinking and driven by its own values. Back then there were no treaties, there was always a form of war. These days we have wars, but not on the battlefield, but on the global economic market. An economy can no longer live on past socialistic values on a globally traded economy, doing so would make you fall behind the rest of the world at a rapid pace. Why do you think many countries want to join the EU? It's to help bolster financial stability across a range of countries essentially sharing the wealth. You might think it's unfair that richer countries bail out and provide for poorer countries, but this would always happen at the start. The more countries that are brought up to standards of the richer EU countries then the better off the EU will be, and in the future it will provide for a much better Europe as a whole.

    China have grown rapidly because of corporations pumping money into their country for manufacturing, now their economy have become highly westernised with three classes - rich, middle, and poor. Before it was black and white. India are growing at a rapid rate too and, while they have gone the route of "do it ourselves", the only reason they've been able to recently rapidly develop is because of certain Indian corporations bringing manufacturing into the country. Now they're the leading country in satellite deployment and technology - go figure.

    Whether we like it or not, it's corporations that run the world on a global scale, and without them the world would still be in war and strife. They bring stability, jobs, global markets, and the majority of the world's growth - and I know about the greed and corruption, which I detest greatly, but for the benefits it has brought to the current world, I'm glad I no longer hold the values of segregated patriotism. To me, being patriotic doesn't mean keeping powers to yourself by keeping it for yourself, it doesn't mean that I should force my liberties on others. Being patriotic to me is supporting the country I've grown up in, being proud for what we've done and are currently achieving, and for standing up for our cultural values - not for some stupid farcical "we're not British if we stay or merge with the EU" nonsense that Brexit seems to give.

    We're living in the 21st century where borders are disappearing, information is instantly known worldwide, people learning about other cultures by simply Googling, hell we can get from one side of the planet to the next in half a day. Having the EU as a major superpower is in everyone's interest for economic stability, security, and trade. I have no qualms with people that want to vote Brexit but I just hope you all know what you're letting yourselves in for. If we go Brexit I will honestly leave the country because there's no way I'll be stuck in a downward spiralling economy.

  23. #21
    Master Poster
    Shingo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    PSN ID
    Swordsman-45
    Posts
    3,330
    Rep Power
    53
    Items User name styleOne Piece
    I am guessing Ez thinks they rule the world also England can do good for them. All I am saying world is not as it used to be. There is China almost completely make the world addicted to them which I think the most major problem atm. And since cooperations Varsh mentioned are loving it, western countries (hence all the rest of the world) hands tied down pretty well.
    In my opinion the world is beautiful because of the Europe nations. Yea they have done pretty bad things in the past ( like all the rest of the world) but they are doing right atm. They are caring as much as they can. Unlike other super powers.
    #lovegaming


    MyAnimeList

    Stop preordering games! Stop buying day1 games! Stop being idiots!

  24. #22
    Dedicated Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    1,408
    Rep Power
    64
    Quote Originally Posted by Varsh View Post
    This was said in a time and age where economies were still very inward thinking and driven by its own values. Back then there were no treaties, there was always a form of war. These days we have wars, but not on the battlefield, but on the global economic market. An economy can no longer live on past socialistic values on a globally traded economy, doing so would make you fall behind the rest of the world at a rapid pace. Why do you think many countries want to join the EU? It's to help bolster financial stability across a range of countries essentially sharing the wealth. You might think it's unfair that richer countries bail out and provide for poorer countries, but this would always happen at the start. The more countries that are brought up to standards of the richer EU countries then the better off the EU will be, and in the future it will provide for a much better Europe as a whole.

    China have grown rapidly because of corporations pumping money into their country for manufacturing, now their economy have become highly westernised with three classes - rich, middle, and poor. Before it was black and white. India are growing at a rapid rate too and, while they have gone the route of "do it ourselves", the only reason they've been able to recently rapidly develop is because of certain Indian corporations bringing manufacturing into the country. Now they're the leading country in satellite deployment and technology - go figure.

    Whether we like it or not, it's corporations that run the world on a global scale, and without them the world would still be in war and strife. They bring stability, jobs, global markets, and the majority of the world's growth - and I know about the greed and corruption, which I detest greatly, but for the benefits it has brought to the current world, I'm glad I no longer hold the values of segregated patriotism. To me, being patriotic doesn't mean keeping powers to yourself by keeping it for yourself, it doesn't mean that I should force my liberties on others. Being patriotic to me is supporting the country I've grown up in, being proud for what we've done and are currently achieving, and for standing up for our cultural values - not for some stupid farcical "we're not British if we stay or merge with the EU" nonsense that Brexit seems to give.

    We're living in the 21st century where borders are disappearing, information is instantly known worldwide, people learning about other cultures by simply Googling, hell we can get from one side of the planet to the next in half a day. Having the EU as a major superpower is in everyone's interest for economic stability, security, and trade. I have no qualms with people that want to vote Brexit but I just hope you all know what you're letting yourselves in for. If we go Brexit I will honestly leave the country because there's no way I'll be stuck in a downward spiralling economy.
    We've had treaties in a modern form since the 1800s, and there still is always a form of war, and they are on the battlefield - although many tend to be by proxy. I'm the last person that would argue for socialistic values, but you made an argument based on those very values when you mention bringing up poorer countries to a higher standard (at our expense). Indeed, the many countries you talk about that want to join the EU are, not surprisingly, poorer countries. Countries with a higher standard of living however, have a different outlook; Iceland rejected it, as did Switzerland and Norway. The UK has enough problems of its own without having to spend billions of pounds on other countries.

    The whole notion of sharing a nation's wealth to other nations isn't just unfair to donor countries, it's counterproductive. Consider a scenario where you're going to university, you're working hard, and are due to be awarded a distinction for your efforts which will of course increase your prospects. However, there are a few in your class that don't put in the effort, or are not as bright, and are due to fail. Would you agree to share your grade by receiving a lower one (say, a third), so that no one fails and the whole class can receive third-class awards? Would holding you back, so that others can be -artificially- lifted upwards, really be beneficial to society? I can't agree with this notion.

    Corporations should not be running the world. They provide jobs and prosperity, but they should not be allowed to set up huge offices in Brussels -right outside the EU parliament- to Lobby the EU for favourable laws that benefit their business at the expense of smaller/different businesses. That is anti-competitive.

    Rather than bringing stability, Greece has gone down the pan because it was unable to devalue its currency due to being in the Eurozone, and the former head of MI6 has stated that in its current form, the EU is going to cause an increase in far-right groups across Europe. You cannot force together tens of different countries with different languages, cultures, and interests. This can only cause animosity between nations - not fraternity.

  25. #23
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Varsh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    UK
    PSN ID
    UK-Varsh
    Age
    34
    Posts
    7,152
    Rep Power
    105
    Items User name style
    Quote Originally Posted by Valefor View Post
    We've had treaties in a modern form since the 1800s, and there still is always a form of war, and they are on the battlefield - although many tend to be by proxy. I'm the last person that would argue for socialistic values, but you made an argument based on those very values when you mention bringing up poorer countries to a higher standard (at our expense). Indeed, the many countries you talk about that want to join the EU are, not surprisingly, poorer countries. Countries with a higher standard of living however, have a different outlook; Iceland rejected it, as did Switzerland and Norway. The UK has enough problems of its own without having to spend billions of pounds on other countries.
    The treaties we have today are on a completely different level of thinking than before. In the yesteryear the treaties were purely for biding one's time before the next attack, or to become a protectorate. Those days, like I said, have well and truly past, especially with the UN in place. If one country tries to go to war on another then every other nation worldwide would go against you, it's not worth it anymore. The Aggressor will now always lose.

    The whole notion of sharing a nation's wealth to other nations isn't just unfair to donor countries, it's counterproductive. Consider a scenario where you're going to university, you're working hard, and are due to be awarded a distinction for your efforts which will of course increase your prospects. However, there are a few in your class that don't put in the effort, or are not as bright, and are due to fail. Would you agree to share your grade by receiving a lower one (say, a third), so that no one fails and the whole class can receive third-class awards? Would holding you back, so that others can be -artificially- lifted upwards, really be beneficial to society? I can't agree with this notion.
    Grades and currency are not anywhere close to the same thing and are most like apples and oranges, where you even got that analogy from I don't know. It is more beneficial to have poorer countries being brought up to standards faster than it is to fly solo and struggle for, potentially, many decades and then find out that you are decades behind in technology. We might be struggling now but the money we spend weekly on our membership has given us a huge amount of benefits in both security, finances, and tourism. Sure we're in debt, but that was artificially created by the three terms of ridiculous spending by both Blair and the back stabbing Brown. As much as I hate the Tories having to do what they're doing, they have to do what they need to do to get us out of debt and it's moving along much faster than most of us thought it would.

    But being a donor country is NOT counterproductive. If you bring someone up to the same standards as yourself then it will greatly benefit you in the long run. Look what happened to China, they have been massive donors to African countries in the last 15-20 years and their country, in turn, went through a massive boom. India have been recently doing the same in other countries and look at them now, they're booming like crazy! The whole world works via helping out the smaller countries to boost your own, and if you can't see that then that's your prerogative.

    Corporations should not be running the world. They provide jobs and prosperity, but they should not be allowed to set up huge offices in Brussels -right outside the EU parliament- to Lobby the EU for favourable laws that benefit their business at the expense of smaller/different businesses. That is anti-competitive.
    I have already mentioned my disdain for those practices so I'm not going to mention it again.

    Rather than bringing stability, Greece has gone down the pan because it was unable to devalue its currency due to being in the Eurozone, and the former head of MI6 has stated that in its current form, the EU is going to cause an increase in far-right groups across Europe. You cannot force together tens of different countries with different languages, cultures, and interests. This can only cause animosity between nations - not fraternity.
    Greece has gone down the pan because their entire economy is based on tourism. Tourism was a massive boom in the mid 00's and Greece had tonnes of money, but when the credit crunch happened? Even devaluing your currency wouldn't get you out of the debt that Greece went under. Even the UK got massively hit, and funnily enough was one of the poorest countries when that hit.

    The difference between Greece and us though (and we did not print/devalue our currency) was that we took measures to get ourselves out of debt immediately, Greeve were arguing left and right for years and years and plead with the EU for a bailout instead - that right there shows a government not in touch with the rest of the world. They still don't have an pro-active government but at least it's getting back on track now due to forced measures via Brussels. You might not like it but if your country is a lost cause, at least there are leaders that know what to do and help point you in the right direction financially, but if they were out of the EU then I bet Greece would be in a deeper pan as they are now.

  26. #24
    Forum Sage

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    33
    Posts
    9,145
    Rep Power
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingo View Post
    I am guessing Ez thinks they rule the world also England can do good for them. All I am saying world is not as it used to be. There is China almost completely make the world addicted to them which I think the most major problem atm. And since cooperations Varsh mentioned are loving it, western countries (hence all the rest of the world) hands tied down pretty well.
    In my opinion the world is beautiful because of the Europe nations. Yea they have done pretty bad things in the past ( like all the rest of the world) but they are doing right atm. They are caring as much as they can. Unlike other super powers.
    Militarily? I think we still do and I don't think that will change this century. I also think our nation has used far more soft-power than hard-power. It's easy to look at the wars we've been in whether declared or undeclared and use them to categorize a nation based solely on that but what you don't pay attention to is all the incentives we've given to other nations to get outcomes we desire. In most cases, we've given far more than we receive in turn. In short, we've been playing nice far more than I think we should.

    As for the Brexit referendum: Our president wants the UK to stay in the EU as a unified Europe is good for American strategic interests. Note that our president and politicians along with corporations want this outcome. Not the American people. As an outsider and a Constitutionalist American, I don't think we should get to weigh in on the matter at all. But if opinions are like a-holes and everyone has one, I would rather see a UK outside the EU on the grounds of economic and sovereign rights. It's easy to see how things fit on the inside. What's harder to see is how things fit from the outside.

    Anyway, this is my take on the whole issue. I know what I see may not be the whole picture. Hell, I'm sure that some of the things I've read may be disinformation. I'm happy to be corrected where I'm wrong. One thing is for certain though. Britain remaining in the EU benefits some very powerful interests, including American corporate, political and military interests. At the end of the day, it's up to you Britons, not anyone else.

  27. #25
    Veteran
    MacP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    PSN ID
    Pul3y
    Age
    29
    Posts
    4,131
    Rep Power
    76
    It's a step into the unknown so why take the risk?
    Keep it simple!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
vBCredits II Deluxe v2.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2010-2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.