CES 2007: John Carmack And Todd Hollenshead Speak

[A7MAD]

Game Informer met with id Software’s John Carmack and Todd Hollenshead to talk about, well, a lot of things.

Way too long to quote without upsetting, so go and check it out...

Link...

[Aleman]

This part will probably be of the most interest to this board:

GI: At QuakeCon two years ago, you were very adamant during your keynote about not being too thrilled about developing for multi-core systems. Not just specifically with PCs, but also the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. Now that you’ve been working with both of them since then, have your thoughts changed at all?

Carmack: Microsoft has made some pretty nice tools that show you what you can make on the Xbox 360. I get a nice multi-frame graph, and I can label everything across six threads and three cores. They are nice tools for doing all of that, but the fundamental problem is that it’s still hard to do. If you want to utilize all of that unused performance, it’s going to become more of a risk to you and bring pain and suffering to the programming side. It already tends to be a long pole in the tent for getting a game out of the door. It’s no help to developers to be adding all of this extra stuff where we can spend more effort on this. We’re going to be incentivized, obviously, to take advantage of the system, because everybody’s going to be doing that. It’s not like anyone’s going to say that it’s impossible to do. People tend to look at it from the up side. It gives you this many more flops and it gives you this much more power to do that. But you have to recognize that there is another edge to that sword, and you will suffer in some ways for dealing with this. I don’t have any expectation that anytime soon, a massive breakthrough will occur that will make parallel programming much easier. It’s been an active research project for many years. Better tools will help and somewhat better programming methodologies will help. One of the big problems with modern game development with CC++ languages is that your junior programmer who’s supposed to be over there working on how the pistol works can’t have one tiny little erase condition that interacts with the background thread doing something. I do sweat about the fragility of what we do with the large-scale software stuff with multiple programmers developing on things, and adding multi-core development makes it much scarier and much worse in that regard.

So we’re dealing with it, but it’s an aspect of the landscape that obviously would have been better if we would have been able to get more gigahertz in a processor core. But life didn’t turn out like that, and we have to just take the best advantage with it.

GI: You talked a lot about the Xbox 360. What are your thoughts on the PlayStation 3 now that you’ve had more time on it?

Carmack: We’ve got our PlayStation 3 dev kits, and we’ve got our code compiling on it. I do intend to do a simultaneous release on it. But the honest truth is that Microsoft dev tools are so much better than Sony’s. We expect to keep in mind the issues of bringing this up on the PlayStation 3. But we’re not going to do much until we’re at the point where we need to bring it up to spec on the PlayStation 3. We’ll probably do that two or three times during the major development schedule. It’s not something we’re going to try and keep in-step with us. None of my opinions have really changed on that. I think the decision to use an asymmetric CPU by Sony was a wrong one. There are aspects that could make it a winning decision, but they’re not helpful to the developers. If they make the developers say that Sony is going to own the main marketplace, let’s make them develop toward this and build it this way, it would somewhat downplay the benefits of the Xbox 360 and play to the PlayStation 3’s strengths. I suspect they’re not going to overwhelmingly crush the marketplace this time, which wasn’t clear a year ago. A lot of people were thinking it’s going to be a rerun of the last generation, and it’s now looking like it might not be. I’ve been pulling for Microsoft, because I think they’ve done a better job for development support, and I think they have made somewhat smarter decisions on the platform. It’s not like the PlayStation 3 is a piece of junk or anything. I was not a fan of the PlayStation 2 and the way its architecture was set up. With the PlayStation 3, it’s not even that it’s ugly--they just took a design decision that wasn’t the best from a development standpoint.

GI: When you were talking about adding more resources into the parallel development, do you feel that goes against Microsoft’s XNA platform? Microsoft’s spiel was that you used to spend 80% on problems and 20% on creativity.

Carmack: Yeah, that’s all bull****. If anything, when you give processing power in a way that is not convenient on here, it can make you spend more effort. It can make you do greater things like with physics or accelerate audio or something, but it’s not like that you have this hardware that takes whatever work you were doing and makes it into less work. And this had analogs through all kinds of parallel processing on there. It’s very rare that you have a piece of hardware that can make what you were doing easier. Usually, you have to spend more effort, but you get something vastly more powerful in the end. Even 3D graphics was kind of like that--especially a lot of the early cards. They were a decelerator, people used to joke. If you ran a game that had a really good software rasterizer, like Quake, and you chose to run that through most of the early 3D cards, it actually got slower. But then you could say: “Oh, you can run at a higher resolution and you can get filtering.” But it was still not making what you were doing go faster. So you had to go put in all of this other work to try and bring the speed back and also get these other advantages. The same type of thing was true with sound accelerators, and we still deal with EAX and stuff, but it’s not a high-return platform. And people are dealing with that with the standalone physics accelerator. I don’t think a physics accelerator alone will ever be a big thing. If anything, it will be technology rolled into something else.

So with all of the extra power, we’re going to be able to do some cool things with it, but by no means will it make our lives easier. Now it will be more like, “Hey audio guy, you no longer have to live in 10%. This core is all you. Have a blast.” That type of thing will make life easier, but it’s not the most efficient use of resources.

[Grym]

He still thinks PS3 is a "pain in the ass" it seems.

But he also said that it is the most powerful console.

[Sockpuppet]

Where?


I must have missed that part.

[Chemo]

bah i don't really care anymore about what carmack says until he makes a game that assembles the collective success of Gears and UT2007 he can shut his hole and let the programmers with bold and exploratory mind-set handle the next-gen consoles.

[A7MAD]

He still thinks PS3 is a "pain in the ass" it seems.

Most devs still do...

But he also said that it is the most powerful console.

I personally agree but where was that attributed to JC?

[Noryl]

He still thinks PS3 is a "pain in the ass" it seems.

But he also said that it is the most powerful console.

Where he say that. All i read in regards to that quote by aleman is that it was by far not a piece of junk. According to him for gaming purpose the cell was a bad move

[The Old Man]

He still thinks PS3 is a "pain in the ass" it seems.

But he also said that it is the most powerful console.

OH NO! Don't say that. The other side will just say that Carmack and his cronies are lazy!

[bluvi69]

this is about sony ps3, actuially he praise more on x360 ,a nd none said about ps3 the most powerdul console, actually he think ps3 asymetric cpu design are bad choices

None of my opinions have really changed on that. I think the decision to use an asymmetric CPU by Sony was a wrong one

about x360

Microsoft has made some pretty nice tools that show you what you can make on the Xbox 360. I get a nice multi-frame graph, and I can label everything across six threads and three cores.

We’ve got our PlayStation 3 dev kits, and we’ve got our code compiling on it. I do intend to do a simultaneous release on it. But the honest truth is that Microsoft dev tools are so much better than Sony’s. We expect to keep in mind the issues of bringing this up on the PlayStation 3. But we’re not going to do much until we’re at the point where we need to bring it up to spec on the PlayStation 3

[lordmadjack]

Please don't start the flame bait TOM. We don't need another thread closed.

Well this has been known for a while about Carmack none the less good news I suppose

[BudFox]

I don't know...the guy does know his stuff, iD was the big dog for a few years. But from all his comments you can't help but think he would rather just hold on to what he had, or the way things were.

Changes happen they have to or we would still be playing C64's...I don't really consider it a good thing when you approach it complaining or reluctant to actually try and get everything you can out of it.

I like their games, I'm sure they will still be fun, but it doesn't sound like they still have the determination and drive to really pump out amazing titles.

[Noryl]

I don't know...the guy does know his stuff, iD was the big dog for a few years. But from all his comments you can't help but think he would rather just hold on to what he had, or the way things were.

Changes happen they have to or we would still be playing C64's...I don't really consider it a good thing when you approach it complaining or reluctant to actually try and get everything you can out of it.

I like their games, I'm sure they will still be fun, but it doesn't sound like they still have the determination and drive to really pump out amazing titles.

I think they do have that drive. But with that drive cost money. He is being realistic about it. You can't pump out a great title for next gen without it costing. So in regards to that maybe its not that he does not want everything out of a console. It's just to do that would cost to much in a short period of time. He even said with great dev tools 360 is still hard to come by, so you can just phantom what the ps3 would be like. So in that sense yes he might be reluctant but it is valid.

[G_H_G]

Carmack has said many times before that the PS3 has more peak performence (I don't even know why this is still up for debate, its been known for some time now but fanboys still love to deny it), but the problem is getting that extra power into use. It fits in with what he says here about multi-core processors and the Cell being an asymmetric processor. Just because it is more powerful it does not mean we will see better results from it.

From the gist of the interview, it sounds to me like the guy is falling out of love with his job. He talks about everything as if its a chore to have to learn new ways of programming due to multicore systems instead of taking it like a challenge. What he doesn't acknowledge is that multicore processors bring more benefits than a single superfast processor could ever bring for gaming. If things never changed then gaming wouldn't eb moving forward at the rate it is right now. But oh wait... Carmack would be a happy bunny . 'Hey look, Quake 5 barely looks or plays better than Quake 4, but it was hella easy to program'.

This also fits in what I've been saying for ages though. Aside from the Wii, there is no system this gen that is easy to program and make games for. As soon as you get involved with multicore processors it complicates things due to devs and programmers being inexperienced with them (which is expected because they are new). But once they get used to them then we will see great improvements in the games. Also, I'd like to touch on the point that anyone who was good with programming for the PS2 will find it much easier to get to grips with the 360 and PS3 this gen than anyone else.

[skulpt]

This goes along with what I've been saying for a long time.

1) Dev for the PS3 is way harder than it should be

2) Multiplatform devs don't want to dig deep. They want a familiar way of doing things. Sony with the PS3 (and PS2) made devs work a lot harder to get to the meat of the technology.

3) MP devs are not playing to the PS3s strengths at all.

"If they make the developers say that Sony is going to own the main marketplace, let’s make them develop toward this and build it this way, it would somewhat downplay the benefits of the Xbox 360 and play to the PlayStation 3’s strengths."

Basically, like the last generation, Sony has taken a technology and way of programming that is killer hard to develop for if you're planning on having it Multi platform. Ports from the PS3 to the 360 are probably games that don't use SPEs, and games that do require them would be too hard to develop for on the 360. This is Sony's fault in doing it this way, but there is some good potential to be unlocked if the devs take the time to work on it. The question is, how many will?

Brian

[OKlondon]

Devs thought the ps2 was a pain in the ass look how many games was on that.

John Carmack has always been complaining about the ps3, I m not bothered he hasnt made a good game since Quake 3.

[BudFox]

I think they do have that drive. But with that drive cost money. He is being realistic about it. You can't pump out a great title for next gen without it costing. So in regards to that maybe its not that he does not want everything out of a console. It's just to do that would cost to much in a short period of time. He even said with great dev tools 360 is still hard to come by, so you can just phantom what the ps3 would be like. So in that sense yes he might be reluctant but it is valid.

I agree, however the market for video games is alot bigger than it was 5-10 years ago as well. There is more money to be made, but it costs more money and manpower to get to the level that makes it's a "must have" game.

Like I said before, they will probably still make good games. I will still be interested in anything they put out...I just don't think they will be pumping out any groundbreaking titles, that push the boundaries of gaming out...like GoW's graphics, or MGS's gameplay.

But of course I really hope I'm proven wrong, I dont' care how a company makes an amazing game as long as they do it!!

[G_H_G]

Devs thought the ps2 was a pain in the ass look how many games was on that.

John Carmack has always been complaining about the ps3, I m not bothered he hasnt made a good game since Quake 3.

Its because he's lost the passion for what he does (as I said above). As soon as that happens he's not going to really care and go the extra mile with what he produces. He seriously sounds like he's only still in the business because he has to be. IMO, he should just call it quits and hand over his projects/franchises to someone younger, with new ideas and a passion for what they do (Someone similar to Cliffy B). Thats the only way the Quake franchise or any of his games is ever going to get back to the top.

[Zer0Force]

Can someone dig up that article about Carmack saying Quake 2 couldn't run on the PS2, and all those other articles where he bitched about Sony systems in general?

It forces devs not to do a sloppy port of an Xbox 360 game, is that really such a bad thing?

[Lefein]

One thing I always like about a Carmack interview is that whether or not you agree or disagree with his opinions you KNOW he is being honest and telling you what he really thinks. He's a lot like gabe Newell or Jaffe in that respect. Thanks for the great lunch read! Kudos

[LevelheadedGamer]

He does seem very depressed about modern console game development. He obviously favours MSFT over Sony, which he explains, but he doesnt seem happy about things going multicore in general. He comes across as a whinger to me and will probably be shown as a "lazy" dev when other dev's do unbelieveable stuff with both platforms and he's still sitting there going "waaaa, i dont like it, I DONT LIKE IT!!!

[Rubics Cube]

Excellent read, and some good points. Thanks for the post.

[GS kid]

One thing I always like about a Carmack interview is that whether or not you agree or disagree with his opinions you KNOW he is being honest and telling you what he really thinks. He's a lot like gabe Newell or Jaffe in that respect. Thanks for the great lunch read! Kudos

Well that's the most level headed response I've seen you say in awhile.

What I found most surprising about this interview is how much he praises DirectX and it's accompanying tools. This from a guy who has always been a big proponent of OpenGL. He still loves OpenGL, but it is very clear in the interview that Microsoft's API has won him over now too.

Say what you want about OpenGL, but Microsoft has clearly stepped up it's game and made an API that can compete with it head to head. And that's good for us gamers in the end.

[jlippone]

One thing I always like about a Carmack interview is that whether or not you agree or disagree with his opinions you KNOW he is being honest and telling you what he really thinks. He's a lot like gabe Newell or Jaffe in that respect. Thanks for the great lunch read! Kudos

Quoted for an agreement.

Carmack is one of those rare people who actually say what they think of things and he is in most cases pretty damn close to being right.
Actually I haven't heard him bashing or praising anything unless there has been a good reason to do so.

[Smily0012]

He does seem very depressed about modern console game development. He obviously favours MSFT over Sony, which he explains, but he doesnt seem happy about things going multicore in general. He comes across as a whinger to me and will probably be shown as a "lazy" dev when other dev's do unbelieveable stuff with both platforms and he's still sitting there going "waaaa, i dont like it, I DONT LIKE IT!!!

Do you really think that. Just cause his stating that its difficult to program for next-gen does not mean that he dosen't produce great things.

[GartMon]

Quake wars looks really good imo. Looks alot more fun the battlefield 2142.

Quake wars is comnig to consoles right?