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  1. #126
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    Never bite the hands that feed you!

    This has been a great debate. Iím another programmer that visits this place. I work on a wide range of equipment including PowerPC based Single Board Computers with DSPs attached via PMC slot(s).

    If I have to work on a new system and the tools are missing some of the features Iím use to, I complain.
    When the documentation for the new system contains errors or doesnít fully detail a feature that I need to use, I complain.
    When I trying to find bugs that appear to be in the hardware or OS, I complain.
    When I have to port someone elseís code to a new system, and the code isnít very well documented, I complain.

    Even with all my complaining I donít believe Developers should complain publicly about the difficulties they are having on any system.

    When I complain itís to the relevant party. I complain to technical support. It would appear very unprofessional if I told our customers about the problems we are having in full detail.
    What if told the customers:
    You know that code Iíve been porting, Iím having loads of problems at the moment, it doesnít really fit the architecture of new processing card very well and Iím finding it hard to track down all the bugs because the tools are crap. Donít worry we do a lot of testing, so things will be fine by the time you get it.

    Nope we donít do that, what we do is keep the customer out of the loop, work lots of overtime and get dragged into endless meetings. And the customer sees the end results, OK in our case the customer may have to be given some (watered down) information periodically or if it looks like we may not meet the deadlines.

    So why is it different for the games industry?
    In the games industry why complain in public view, where the customer (gamers) can hear all the complaints? Isnít this unprofessional?
    Fictional Example - Hello Gamer, the game code isnít running that well on your system at the moment, if we are going to get it running to the standards you expect, we will have to put some extra effort into the development. Oh and even though we are complaining about your system, we still expect you to buy our product.
    Yeah right!
    By stating their preference for any system they will loose a few sales. O.K the majority of gamers wonít know anything about the developerís statements, but it could affect game reviews. I.e. the reviewers can get preconceptions that the game will be weaker on one platform, resulting in a lower review score and this could result in loss off sales. This results in loss of revenue for the developer. Then the developer thinks we put all that extra effort into that version of the game didnít even do that well in terms of reviews or sales. While they were the ones that stated how hard it would be to get a good version on that platform in the first place.
    So to answer seebs original question:
    Are developers idiots?
    Well possibly, because can anything be gained by publicly complaining about a platform, unless they are trying to kill that platform,
    Well possibly not because maybe itís just a way of getting Sony to offer more support for their platform.

    There have been very many valid points about profits, tradeoffs and the complexity of game development in this thread. But my point is when did the internet replace the boardroom? Why complain in public unless you feel it is the only option you have left or unless you are trying to sway which platform will come out on top.
    Surely if you give the impression that games may be weaker on one platform and produce games for that platform you are just biting the hands that feed you.

  2. #127
    Toaddio
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    You think developers should program on the bare metal?
    No. What I think is that your analogy claiming that writing code for the PS3 is as difficult as writing a program in assembly AND you get nothing extra for your effort is crap. I think that analogy and argument is silly and I think you know it.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Relic View Post

    There have been very many valid points about profits, tradeoffs and the complexity of game development in this thread. But my point is when did the internet replace the boardroom? Why complain in public unless you feel it is the only option you have left or unless you are trying to sway which platform will come out on top.
    Surely if you give the impression that games may be weaker on one platform and produce games for that platform you are just biting the hands that feed you.
    This is the crux of it.
    Even the general public can see this as a possible motive.
    Add to the fact that these statements come out at the height of anti-SONY propoganda & you can't blame the gamers from thinking along these lines.

    But Seebs also has some very valid points (IMO) which have an explaination for most of the angst.
    But again, Leifein and others also have valid points to their arguements.

    The fact is, none of us know the whole truth & that (IMO) includes Leifein and Seebs etc.

    Just my opinion guys...don't shoot me..
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  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    I've noticed a trend, which is that, by amazing coincidence, every time a developer says anything remotely negative about the PS3, a lot of non-programmers come in and explain that he's an idiot, doesn't know anything about technology, is stuck in the 80s, doesn' appreciate the virtue of hard work, and so on.

    So, tell! What makes all of you qualified to comment on the competence of programmers? How is it that a single sentence from an interview, on the topic of PS3 development, is enough to completely nail down the skills and understanding of someone you've never met, whose work you are totally unfamiliar with, in a field you know absolutely nothing about?

    Why is it that "X is an idiot" and "X said PS3 development is hard or annoying" are 100% correlated in this forum? It's no secret that PS2 development was a nightmare, and Sony's always favored developer sweat over hardware features or developer tools. So what's the big deal?

    Also, I'm really curious: Is there ANYONE else in this forum who actually programs for Cell, or for multicore systems, or even just for single core systems, in C or assembly?


    Best post ever......The people here are either young or just stupid.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toaddio View Post
    No. What I think is that your analogy claiming that writing code for the PS3 is as difficult as writing a program in assembly AND you get nothing extra for your effort is crap. I think that analogy and argument is silly and I think you know it.
    That was not claimed by my analogy.

    I used a more extreme example to see if anyone was capable of admitting that there could be reasons other than "laziness" not to want to do a lot more work on a project to do it one way instead of a lot less to do it another.

    When we get to the specific case, it comes down to pure accounting. I can put in X months of work to develop a game for the 360 and probably make about N dollars, or I can put in Y months of work for the PS3 and probably make about M dollars.

    Y will be greater than X, because the PS3 is harder to develop for.

    That means that, if M isn't larger than N, I should not develop for the PS3. Even if it is, if I don't have enough money already in the bank to bankroll the longer development cycle, I can't target the tougher system.

  6. #131
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    I'm not sure if it's been said yet or not, but being a nerdy guy who can program a game does not make you smart.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunTeng View Post
    This is the crux of it.
    Even the general public can see this as a possible motive.
    Add to the fact that these statements come out at the height of anti-SONY propoganda & you can't blame the gamers from thinking along these lines.

    But Seebs also has some very valid points (IMO) which have an explaination for most of the angst.
    But again, Leifein and others also have valid points to their arguements.

    The fact is, none of us know the whole truth & that (IMO) includes Leifein and Seebs etc.

    Just my opinion guys...don't shoot me..
    It's very hard to know a person's motives.

    I don't follow Carmacks life and interviews, but he does do this on a constant basis, so he's just that kind of guy, that probably should have a PR guy tailing. He like's preaching to the stage. He has said a lot of things over the years that are not exactly very smart considering what he's releasing.

    Not to mention that the HW industry obvious doeesn't totally agree with him and moves in their own way.

    As for some others. There are some that do it for a living. Writers, reviewers, people that live on reader base, as oppose to market based.

    If company Xboxlove4ever comes out and says they are scrapping their PS3 console project because it was too hard. Well.. it could be they were never in the market for PS3 anyway, so it's fine. And it gets them publicity.

    Same with Sony 1st party.

    Now the thing is, even companies don't do it that far because you never know who your bed fellow is. Today's enemy is tomorrow's bedmate.

    Team ninja gone with Xbox, now suddenly on PS3. They kept their mouth tight, so no one notices that they can now hype up their new NG, while DoA on 360.

    It could be they are trying to curry favors. Not the first and not the last. Public grandstanding has it's uses. As long as it's smart grandstanding.

  8. #133
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    You know people really need to know what the hell they are talking about before they post topics
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  9. #134
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    It amazes me that a lot of people assume that, coders arent into coding, thats why they all hate the Cell.

    It's a lot more abstract than that to be honest.
    It has nothing to do with coding individual SPU's
    If this was the case we all would have $#@!ed about Shader models.

    Look it's an abstract thing, not a coding thing.

    I'll give you an example.

    Xbox 360, 3 cores.

    We can take 1 core and dedicate it to say, scene management.
    We can take another core and dedicate it to just rendering (in other words sending command to the graphics card).
    We can take a 3rd core and use it for cloth simulation or streaming and decompressing data from the DVD.

    Sweet pretty easy.

    Now on to the cell.

    Oh hell, ok we need to stream.
    We cant stream direct from Media to SPU's
    So the PPE needs to do some of that work.
    Scene management, maybe we could of load this to the SPU's in chunks (possibly), the PPE needs to direct this.
    View/frustrum test we can proabbly do on a dedicated SPU.
    Rendering, this will need to be assembled and written to the GPU, probably via the PPE.

    (I am assuming the SPU's cant send commands to the video card otherwise it will be chaos).

    It takes a complelty different set of reasoning to try and do a very very traditionally sequantial set of tasks, and split it up into 6 low memory CPU's, and 1 high memory CPU.

    Som heres my request to you all out there.

    Take the following and split it among the SPU/PPE.
    -rules
    1 You have to limit the SPU's to 256k
    2 It needs to flow logically.


    *Data loading from media
    -including decompression

    *Scene Management
    -Frustrum culling
    -Oclusion culling
    -tree traversel

    *Game update
    -controller inputs
    -AI
    -Physics/Collison detection

    *Scene Rendering
    -Shader management
    -Rendering
    -Shadow volumes
    -Shadow Maps
    -Special effects

    Now see where the headaches come in?
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    That was not claimed by my analogy.

    I used a more extreme example to see if anyone was capable of admitting that there could be reasons other than "laziness" not to want to do a lot more work on a project to do it one way instead of a lot less to do it another.

    When we get to the specific case, it comes down to pure accounting. I can put in X months of work to develop a game for the 360 and probably make about N dollars, or I can put in Y months of work for the PS3 and probably make about M dollars.

    Y will be greater than X, because the PS3 is harder to develop for.

    That means that, if M isn't larger than N, I should not develop for the PS3. Even if it is, if I don't have enough money already in the bank to bankroll the longer development cycle, I can't target the tougher system.
    Over the life cycle that's not really straight business.

    xbox 360 games generation 1: decently wow
    generation 2 game: decently wow +3
    Rival 360 generation 2 game: wow +2

    Market = Full of wow +2

    You fight on on intangablies like story, support, characters etc.

    Not the best position to be in.

    Same situation on a much more exotic system.

    Ps3 generation 1: decently wow
    generation 2: wow +3
    rival generation 2 wow -3

    You have now hyped the game on technical aspect and intangable aspects.

    On a given release window, you may only have to fight with Capcom, and EA.

    Good position. If you're a small company/no name developer, you have now gotten muliple attention and $$$.

    Did anyone give a rat's rear on the developer made Kameo? (rare)

    How about Insomaic? Or level 5 (on ps2). They only made maybe 2 or 3 games over their long existance. And now, all the big guys are shaking their hands.

    Ted Price unknown, is now doing lots of PS3 specific interviews on tech and all(which he's not even very qualitied to do). Because he showed something big bad EA couldn't do, etc.

    Console is its own thing. Money and risks passes around goes through a twister tunnel, through the lost world, and out through china.

    Microsoft is appoaching this with ease of development and portiblity. It's different, but at the same time it levels the playing field. And trying to put that to an advantage isn't always an "advantage".

    Over the life cycle. If you've shaped up and have made an inhouse tools and talent that is hard to rival. You got a lot of things going for you.

    If said console also happens to be very very popular. You've made your goldmine for the future.

    It's akin to the big bad head director, that gives a peice of paper to a 2month intern and goes. "Show me what you can do kid".

    It's two opposing view as always. MS is a SW company, and Sony is a HW company.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudninja View Post
    You know people really need to know what the hell they are talking about before they post topics
    Indeed. I reported this thread earlier this morning, too.

  12. #137
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    WOW. This thread exploded, didnt it? lol

    Whilst i know practically nothing about programming i do know a bit about human behaviour. Carmack and Newell are perfectly entitled to their opinions but as Lefein has pointed out, they are primarily PC devs. I have read interviews from devs like insomniac, Evo studios, Ninja Theory and the Warhawk devs(cant remember their name right now) who all say "yes, the cell takes some time to get used to" but never give an indication that it wont do what sony have said it can do or that its next to impossible to develop on.

    The fact that Newell said in his interview he thinks sony should just "start again" is incredibly naive coming from my perspective. It is what it is. Devs will just need to deal with it. Looking at released and soon to be released games on the ps3 i really dont see anything to worry about.

    At the end of the day everybody is entitled to their opinion and Carmack and Newell are entitled to theirs. They shouldnt be ridiculed or called lazy for giving an opinion, even if 'we' dont like what they are saying. You have to take the good with the bad. I am certain they will be made to eat humble pie as more and more AAA titles come out for the system but until then dont get knocked out of shape.

    One last thing. In both the Carmack and Newell interviews they also make clear their dislike for 360/MSFT so i dont think this thread should turn into a fanboy war.

    Thank you!
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  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudninja View Post
    You know people really need to know what the hell they are talking about before they post topics
    Well, you must be trying to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to Cell programming.

    However, despite many vague assertions that other people here might be programmers, it appears none of the other people here that have ever programmed for Cell are disagreeing with me.

    I've written actual code for Cell. I've written detailed articles on how the IBM compiler works on the Cell. I can tell you concrete details about the cost of a mispredicted branch on the SPE, and I can tell you the EIB works, and why real workloads don't normally get 300GB/sec of effective transfer. I have not only found a bug in IBM's simdmath library for the SPE, I have sent in a fix which they have accepted.

    So far as I can tell, I've been programming longer than my most vocal critics have been metabolizing.

    So, tell us! What standard of knowing what you're talking about would you have in mind? Presumably, since you imply that I'm not qualified to post topics, and since you post topics, you feel that are more qualified than I am. Are you on IBM's compiler team or something?

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    Well, you must be trying to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to Cell programming.

    However, despite many vague assertions that other people here might be programmers, it appears none of the other people here that have ever programmed for Cell are disagreeing with me.

    I've written actual code for Cell. I've written detailed articles on how the IBM compiler works on the Cell. I can tell you concrete details about the cost of a mispredicted branch on the SPE, and I can tell you the EIB works, and why real workloads don't normally get 300GB/sec of effective transfer. I have not only found a bug in IBM's simdmath library for the SPE, I have sent in a fix which they have accepted.

    So far as I can tell, I've been programming longer than my most vocal critics have been metabolizing.

    So, tell us! What standard of knowing what you're talking about would you have in mind? Presumably, since you imply that I'm not qualified to post topics, and since you post topics, you feel that are more qualified than I am. Are you on IBM's compiler team or something?

    if you don't mind can you tell me what game have you programed for, and what studio you work at better yet can i have your name?

    Last question if you are a high tech programmer like you think you are why are'nt you in the big leauge like others dev?

    it not an attack or anything i was just wondering

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Rendering, this will need to be assembled and written to the GPU, probably via the PPE.

    (I am assuming the SPU's cant send commands to the video card otherwise it will be chaos).
    I can't prove anything for the PS3 in particular, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong; so far as I can tell, all the cores can in theory send data anywhere using the MFC.

    http://www-128.ibm.com/developerwork.../pa-celldmas2/

    (There's other articles on this. I picked this one because I edited it so I'm more familiar with the material.)

    The wildcard is the question of how RSX is accessed, but I'd assume it's memory-mapped in some way, so presumably the SPEs can initiate DMA there. Consider that the hypervisor runs on an SPE, and Linux, without any access at all to RSX, can write to a framebuffer in main memory. The most likely guess would be that the data from that framebuffer are getting DMAd over to someplace on RSX, and the hypervisor, running on an SPE, is the only thing that could be doing that.

    BTW, for those who haven't caught on: I never claimed to be in a games studio. Cell is not used exclusively for video games.

  16. #141
    Xaor
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    Seebs, to reply to your original post, I could say EXACTLY the same thing with reference to any of the consoles.

    When a developer says anything POSITIVE about the Ps3 exactly the same thing happens with XBOX Fans explaining how they are OBVIOUSLY wrong.

    Everyone has an opinion, and everyone has a fanboyism one way of the other over everything.

  17. #142
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    My point is everytime some has differwent thoughts you have to make a topic about it saying why they are wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudninja View Post
    My ponit is everytime some has differwent thoughts you have to make a topic about it saying why they are wrong
    Well, no.

    It's just that when I see a bunch of people who are obviously totally unclear about software development calling multiple experienced and successful developers names for not liking the PS3, I figure it's about time to point out that, well, if John Carmack and Gabe Newell were that bad, no one would ever have heard of them to be reporting on their opinions as news.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaor
    Seebs, to reply to your original post, I could say EXACTLY the same thing with reference to any of the consoles.
    True. I think it's more extreme here than I've seen elsewhere, but then, I haven't exactly gone looking for xbox fan communities. Their console's processor bores me to tears, so I have no reason to go looking at it.

    I don't think, though, that everyone out there is doomed to the fanboy thing. I mean, everyone does it once, but really, I got over my fanboy thing during the Genesis/SNES wars. Three generations later, I just don't care that much. I have my opinions on the various technical merits of the consoles, other people have theirs, that's cool.

    However, engineering is less an area where "everybody has an opinion" is a viable approach. Wrong opinions about engineering questions are just plain wrong, and they don't suddenly become justified just because people have an emotional involvement.

  19. #144
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    To be fair though ( going by the other topic) it has become quite a large issue for some people and a stand-alone topic isn't such a bad idea.
    Don't forget, no one has to read the posts or enter the topic although I'm glad people do so that its not one-sided ( whether someone is right or wrong).
    But I don't think anyone is going to convince many others to having a change of opinion.
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  20. #145
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    As far as I'm concerned 99% of developers say the PS3 is better, or the same as the 360.

    Therefore I'd say on the BALANCE of things, the PS3 > 360, on overall technical ability...

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    It's not the system specs, it's the art assets that make it a potential issue for developers; HD requires you to have more detailed textures and models.

    As to whether they were going to do it already, I'm not talking necessarily about games that are targeting the PS3 as their other target. Developers might have a game for PS2, gamecube, or Wii that they think would be a good port to the 360, but they already have all their assets done, and they're all SD... Requiring 720p makes the port more expensive.

    To put it another way: If this requirement is totally harmless and never hurts anyone, there's no reason to have it, because obviously everyone would always do it if it could never cost them extra money to do so.
    There is a reason though, because it is a selling point. Sony and Microsoft may both have 720p games, but Microsoft came out before Sony did this gen, and when they did, they made it a standard. It was a big selling point in the beggining, and technically still is.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    I can't prove anything for the PS3 in particular, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong; so far as I can tell, all the cores can in theory send data anywhere using the MFC.

    http://www-128.ibm.com/developerwork.../pa-celldmas2/

    (There's other articles on this. I picked this one because I edited it so I'm more familiar with the material.)

    The wildcard is the question of how RSX is accessed, but I'd assume it's memory-mapped in some way, so presumably the SPEs can initiate DMA there. Consider that the hypervisor runs on an SPE, and Linux, without any access at all to RSX, can write to a framebuffer in main memory. The most likely guess would be that the data from that framebuffer are getting DMAd over to someplace on RSX, and the hypervisor, running on an SPE, is the only thing that could be doing that.

    BTW, for those who haven't caught on: I never claimed to be in a games studio. Cell is not used exclusively for video games.
    Ok, yes I can tell your not a games programmer
    All of the data for graphics (vertex/index buffer/textures), will normally already be over on the other 256mb.
    When I refer to assembling, what I mean is, getting all your scene data together so that you have a list of what models/what textures and where they are to be placed on the screen (transforms).
    Now thats all it is really a list.
    What is cpu intensive is sending all the commands to draw everything, change the model, change the transform data etc to the GPU.
    Did i say it was CPU intensive? You probably think I mean it's doing a lot of calculations?
    Well actually no, all your realy asking is change render states and draw things. Its just a list of commands sent to the RSX
    The thing is, the RSX will be waiting, so the faster you can send this stuff the better.
    You can only send data seqentially to the RSX, cause thats the way it's designed, from the ground up to sequentially pump out vertex data and convert it to rasterized images.

    So I will rephrase that as only one PPE/spu can ever talk to the graphics at once.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaor View Post
    As far as I'm concerned 99% of developers say the PS3 is better, or the same as the 360.

    Therefore I'd say on the BALANCE of things, the PS3 > 360, on overall technical ability...
    I doubt it's 99%, just because only about 95% of people will consistently get questions like "is mustard usually yellow" right.

    That said, I am inclined to agree that the PS3 probably has the edge for the majority of the games we're going to see in the PS3/360 market, because Cell's raw number crunching is a huge advantage for a very large range of tasks.

    The developers everyone is jumping on haven't said the PS3 isn't fast. As I recall, Carmack pointed out that it would probably be able to produce more impressive games. What they've said, in general, is that it's a lot harder than it has to be to get that theoretical speed, and that, as developers who have to pay the bills by shipping games, they may not really appreciate that.

    Let me put it another way: Imagine that cost were no object in hardware design. If you did a system with four Xenons on it and a gigabyte of memory, it would mop the floor with a Cell system, no doubt about it. That system would produce games that were visually more impressive than PS3 games, and could have additional gameplay depth that the PS3 hasn't got enough room to manage. Furthermore, it would be easier to develop for than the PS3.

    The problem here is that people are treating a connection of happenstance ("the system which is harder to target is more powerful") and assuming that it's some kind of inherent and general truth; that a more powerful system is always harder to target. That's not true, though. In many cases, increasing a system's power or capacity will make it a lot easier to target. No developer has ever said "X is a pretty good console to work on, but it's got way too much memory."

    In short, the kinds of things people are talking about, such as better tools, would be improvements to the ease of working on the Cell, which would not necessarily reduce its raw processing advantage over Xenon.

    The big debate, though, is symmetric multi-core vs. asymmetric multi-core. There's been a lot of times in history where an asymmetric design was at the top of the heap in raw power; I think it's been the case much or most of the time since 1972, in fact. However, they're still harder to develop for. That has a big impact on which tasks they are good choices for.

    Sony's sticking to the console model that we've mostly seen since the Atari 2600; build a system for theoretical power on a given budget, and if it's hard to develop for, the developers can work overtime and ship products late. Microsoft seems to have edged a little away from this; they're making some concessions to developer desires, to try to reduce costs of development some. Nintendo's gone fairly far the other way, pushing developer-friendliness fairly hard, and visibly sacrificing raw power in favor of a mature set of development tools.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Ok, yes I can tell your not a games programmer
    Not very much, anyway.

    All of the data for graphics (vertex/index buffer/textures), will normally already be over on the other 256mb.
    This could be a problem for the PS3. If you want to have an SPE work some of that data over, you have to read it back in. Just one problem; the PS3's architecture assumes you'll NEVER read data in off the RSX's local store, and bandwidth from that storage to the main CPU is very bad. (4MB/sec. Not GB, MB.)

    When I refer to assembling, what I mean is, getting all your scene data together so that you have a list of what models/what textures and where they are to be placed on the screen (transforms).
    Now thats all it is really a list.
    What is cpu intensive is sending all the commands to draw everything, change the model, change the transform data etc to the GPU.
    Did i say it was CPU intensive? You probably think I mean it's doing a lot of calculations?
    Well actually no, all your realy asking is change render states and draw things. Its just a list of commands sent to the RSX
    The thing is, the RSX will be waiting, so the faster you can send this stuff the better.
    You can only send data seqentially to the RSX, cause thats the way it's designed, from the ground up to sequentially pump out vertex data and convert it to rasterized images.

    So I will rephrase that as only one PPE/spu can ever talk to the graphics at once.
    I agree, but I am pretty sure that it would be very easy to have an SPE be in charge of this in whole or in part. A lot of it is the kind of task they might even be fairly good at.

    It's hard to get a feel for the details on this part, simply because Linux on PS3 doesn't get access to RSX at all, so we can't do any experiments. My guess is that, in most cases, the part you describe is fairly minor; the main problem isn't that it takes all that much time, but that it's a hard realtime task; you can't just get back to it in a 60th of a second, it has to happen NOW.

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    oops, double post, please ignore!

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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    However, engineering is less an area where "everybody has an opinion" is a viable approach. Wrong opinions about engineering questions are just plain wrong, and they don't suddenly become justified just because people have an emotional involvement.
    I think it's more debatable these days. While computer engineering can't be argue till you know what you're arguing, these generations of HW have gotten a lot more exotic and each have their own styles and rythms.

    I think over the last 20 years or so, There's been more and more branching theories in the area, both HW and SW.

    The problem is you're talking very much on the SW base and on a theorical base. This is strictly real-world here.

    It would be nice if Sony and even Microsoft made a HW that is so plug and play, it's a cheap as the old 3 guys in a basement attitude.

    The problem is, and it's exactly the difference between MS and Sony is who forks over the dough. Who controls that dough, and how much that dough is attainable.

    You can't let SW people have their way. It's like letting a script-writer budget the movie. It's a give and take. And engineering directly becomes an issue.

    I've always been a more theory person myself academically grounded to how things should be done, But even I see the obvious trade-offs.

    Money doesn't grow on trees and SDKs aren't free as one prof used to joke.

    It's been coming for a while now, and Cell isn't the first and the last company to throw out this stuff.

    In the non obvious journals, Cell/PS3 programers are comparing it to programing a steroided cellphone.

    You needed to opmitized ARMs that to get your hands around under a lot of constraints with no real guidelines, all the while stuffing mountains of options in there.

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