EA Talks PS3 - "RSX tapped out"

[therza]

Hey all, very very long time reader but couldn't be asked to register (uni doesn't leave me much time ) until the mgs4 trailer really got my juices flowing.

Anyway, dunno if this has been posted already but when I read it I was just like...wow.

http://www.gamegeeknews.com/?p=228

For all you lazy gits:

On the first afternoon of the Tokyo Game Show, inside of a”CEDEC Premium”, Electronics Arts gave developers some insight into how it’s approaching next generation game development. A summary for your convience:

They discussed the “anatomy of a hit”. Noting that to EA high quality execution, 1 to 3 design innovations, and audience appeal are the key components to making something a commericial and critical hit.
Noted that “high quality” alone (physics, control, graphics, ai) does not make a hit. Successful games require a gimmick or innovations that usually must be planned early in pre-production.
The PS3 version of Medal of Honor is already “fill-rate bound.” It’s currently using 3 SPE’s for graphics, and the 3 SPE’s are the graphics so fast that the RSX can’t keep up to display them(though they’ll be fixing that).
The with the RSX essentially tapped out (for now), EA is left with a whopping 4 SPE’s to do things such as particle effects, physics, A.I., etc.
EA sees next-gen only need to use 50% of their power for graphics, leaving the other 50% available to do other complex calculations like A.I. and physics. Current systems can only afford to use 20% (on A.I., physics, etc).
EA is using a extreme high-end motion capture facilities for Medal of Honor PS3. They’re said to be at the same levels as the facilities used for the infamous The Matrix sequels.
When developing a game they outsource a lot of the less skilled tasks, leaving EA’s in-house team to focus on the tasks that “really make a difference.”
EA heavily uses Renderware 4 with some additional custom codebases for their rendering and animation engines.
I love technical details.

The ramifications of this are huge! (IMO)...

- The cell is extremely capable at graphics processing (we all knew as much but this obv clinches it, coming from a dev)
- The fastest graphics card available is being maxed out...jeez I wonder what that'll look like.
- If this is true, it's quite likely that Sony will up the specs on the RSX to eliminate any bottlenecks which means PAARRTAAAYYY

Do not use fanboy terminology in this manner. ~ PBM ~ This is just the flipping dev kit, probably an early stage one at that, and the console specs are still subject to change (especially the RSX since they haven't revealed the specs properly yet).

Nywayz, i'm off.

[Reiaz]

hmm, I didn't know any devs had PS3 SDK's with an RSX chip, thought most of them had Alpha kits with modified 7800 gtx's. Anyway, final dev kits go out in December, and the article says they(assuming Nvidia) will fix the RSX.

Sounds about right, having 4-7 SPE's to run AI and physic's is a developers dream come true lol.

I don't care what people say, I just want the damn systems to come out already.

[Steroyd]

yeah RSX isn't finalised yet, so we don't know what's going to happen come December.

Although the Cel is also used to help the GPU along (probably got the idea of the PS2 and expanded off it. )

[IonCannon]

It is a hard article to understand, I got the impression that EA would be making the game more efficient to better make use of the RSX. So when they say fill-rate bound, do they mean that they cannot make the game run any faster? The amount of graphics, the frame rate?

[Steroyd]

It is a hard article to understand, I got the impression that EA would be making the game more efficient to better make use of the RSX. So when they say fill-rate bound, do they mean that they cannot make the game run any faster? The amount of graphics, the frame rate?

I think fillrate bound is when Z buffering, and HDR and AA and all the above are used, not completely sure though.

[Reiaz]

Well, we all know that Sony could have thrown in 2 cells into the PS3. But for cost reasons, and easier development for the game developers, they used Nvidia's RSX chip to handle the graphics.

[IonCannon]

It is a hard article to understand, I got the impression that EA would be making the game more efficient to better make use of the RSX. So when they say fill-rate bound, do they mean that they cannot make the game run any faster? The amount of graphics, the frame rate?

I think fillrate bound is when Z buffering, and HDR and AA and all the above are used, not completely sure though.

Okay I've read it again and now I'm thinking that seeing as they've used three SPEs for graphics, and apparently maxed out the RSX (or GTX), that they have the graphics completely done and maxed out. Now all is left is to add extra effects.

I'm amazed that already developers can incorporate the Cell into the graphics side of the game, I thought it would be at least second gen games before we saw that! And to think that there is that much power to be thrown around

[inter_112678]

Hey all, very very long time reader but couldn't be asked to register (uni doesn't leave me much time ) until the mgs4 trailer really got my juices flowing.

Anyway, dunno if this has been posted already but when I read it I was just like...wow.

http://www.gamegeeknews.com/?p=228

For all you lazy gits:

On the first afternoon of the Tokyo Game Show, inside of a”CEDEC Premium”, Electronics Arts gave developers some insight into how it’s approaching next generation game development. A summary for your convience:

They discussed the “anatomy of a hit”. Noting that to EA high quality execution, 1 to 3 design innovations, and audience appeal are the key components to making something a commericial and critical hit.
Noted that “high quality” alone (physics, control, graphics, ai) does not make a hit. Successful games require a gimmick or innovations that usually must be planned early in pre-production.
The PS3 version of Medal of Honor is already “fill-rate bound.” It’s currently using 3 SPE’s for graphics, and the 3 SPE’s are the graphics so fast that the RSX can’t keep up to display them(though they’ll be fixing that).
The with the RSX essentially tapped out (for now), EA is left with a whopping 4 SPE’s to do things such as particle effects, physics, A.I., etc.
EA sees next-gen only need to use 50% of their power for graphics, leaving the other 50% available to do other complex calculations like A.I. and physics. Current systems can only afford to use 20% (on A.I., physics, etc).
EA is using a extreme high-end motion capture facilities for Medal of Honor PS3. They’re said to be at the same levels as the facilities used for the infamous The Matrix sequels.
When developing a game they outsource a lot of the less skilled tasks, leaving EA’s in-house team to focus on the tasks that “really make a difference.”
EA heavily uses Renderware 4 with some additional custom codebases for their rendering and animation engines.
I love technical details.

The ramifications of this are huge! (IMO)...

- The cell is extremely capable at graphics processing (we all knew as much but this obv clinches it, coming from a dev)
- The fastest graphics card available is being maxed out...jeez I wonder what that'll look like.
- If this is true, it's quite likely that Sony will up the specs on the RSX to eliminate any bottlenecks which means PAARRTAAAYYY

Of course xboxfanboys will be like "OMG, PS3 is CRAP, its MAXED OUT already!!" This is just the flipping dev kit, probably an early stage one at that, and the console specs are still subject to change (especially the RSX since they haven't revealed the specs properly yet).

Nywayz, i'm off.

yup but they used almost all of the cells power for that MGS4 trailer, so unfortuanetly it will only do half that power, hopefully this helps people understand about PHYSICS andAI, they take alot of the power, were unfortunately u just cant use everything on graphics like that MGS4 trailer.

[Schmeh]

yup but they used almost all of the cells power for that MGS4 trailer, so unfortuanetly it will only do half that power, hopefully this helps people understand about PHYSICS andAI, they take alot of the power, were unfortunately u just cant use everything on graphics like that MGS4 trailer.

Where did you see that they maxed out the Cell for the MSG4 trailer? I find it highly unlikely that anyone would be able to max out the Cell this early, due to its architecture being radically different from anything else before it.

[Stoffinator]

yup but they used almost all of the cells power for that MGS4 trailer

Link please?

I doubt this is the actual RSX that is maxed out. Its not even done yet is it? But even if it is the RSX, I am sure Nivida will fix it. This could be the reason why it has not been finalized yet. But still, all that power just for AI and other stuff.

[therza]

yup but they used almost all of the cells power for that MGS4 trailer, so unfortuanetly it will only do half that power, hopefully this helps people understand about PHYSICS andAI, they take alot of the power, were unfortunately u just cant use everything on graphics like that MGS4 trailer.

Lol, i've just been doing a round of the topics. It appears that in every single one,
inter_112678 has been leaving his wisdom without ever looking back and seeing how everyone of his unbreakable arguments are being shredded to bits.

His psychic powers truly are amazing. How else would he know so much? Its not like he's just picking strands out of thin air...

Ok enough sarcasm already. First of all, where did that come from? It has nothing to do with this thread. And if you were trying to weave it in to the thread you've basically smacked yourself in the head with a rather large frying pan, because as the article says, EA are using just 3 spes for the graphics, leaving another 4 for your PHYSICS and AI (I can see why u use caps for these, it is quite satisfying) which is anything but "maxed out".

Now please take some time out, read the responses to your threads and engage your thinking faculties.

[TheFuture]

Hey all, very very long time reader but couldn't be asked to register (uni doesn't leave me much time ) until the mgs4 trailer really got my juices flowing.

Anyway, dunno if this has been posted already but when I read it I was just like...wow.

http://www.gamegeeknews.com/?p=228

For all you lazy gits:

On the first afternoon of the Tokyo Game Show, inside of a”CEDEC Premium”, Electronics Arts gave developers some insight into how it’s approaching next generation game development. A summary for your convience:

They discussed the “anatomy of a hit”. Noting that to EA high quality execution, 1 to 3 design innovations, and audience appeal are the key components to making something a commericial and critical hit.
Noted that “high quality” alone (physics, control, graphics, ai) does not make a hit. Successful games require a gimmick or innovations that usually must be planned early in pre-production.
The PS3 version of Medal of Honor is already “fill-rate bound.” It’s currently using 3 SPE’s for graphics, and the 3 SPE’s are the graphics so fast that the RSX can’t keep up to display them(though they’ll be fixing that).
The with the RSX essentially tapped out (for now), EA is left with a whopping 4 SPE’s to do things such as particle effects, physics, A.I., etc.
EA sees next-gen only need to use 50% of their power for graphics, leaving the other 50% available to do other complex calculations like A.I. and physics. Current systems can only afford to use 20% (on A.I., physics, etc).
EA is using a extreme high-end motion capture facilities for Medal of Honor PS3. They’re said to be at the same levels as the facilities used for the infamous The Matrix sequels.
When developing a game they outsource a lot of the less skilled tasks, leaving EA’s in-house team to focus on the tasks that “really make a difference.”
EA heavily uses Renderware 4 with some additional custom codebases for their rendering and animation engines.
I love technical details.

The ramifications of this are huge! (IMO)...

- The cell is extremely capable at graphics processing (we all knew as much but this obv clinches it, coming from a dev)
- The fastest graphics card available is being maxed out...jeez I wonder what that'll look like.
- If this is true, it's quite likely that Sony will up the specs on the RSX to eliminate any bottlenecks which means PAARRTAAAYYY

Of course xboxfanboys will be like "OMG, PS3 is CRAP, its MAXED OUT already!!" This is just the flipping dev kit, probably an early stage one at that, and the console specs are still subject to change (especially the RSX since they haven't revealed the specs properly yet).

Nywayz, i'm off.

Funny thing is When EA releases games for PS3 and Xbox360, you will see no difference between the two. I mean nothing to note about. Really! Just Xbox 360 will mostly have the game out first because it comes out in NOV. and Xbox 360 more extensive online play.

EA will make the game looks exactly the same.

[Lefein]

Yeah, it was the Cell that maxed out the GPU, Cell is still chillin at 50% while the GPU is crying for mercy. Also of note, is the fact that the Cells in the development kits are not at full speed yet, either.

I don't expect Sony to take the news that the GPU just got ate up before the product hits shelves very lightly. They will probably do something to speed up the gpu somehow. I wonder if they will find a way to make the GPU use XDR instead of GDDR3.. If that happens, then the GPUs RAM will be running at the same speed as everything else.... Dear God that would be a graphical titan!

[Steroyd]

Yeah, it was the Cell that maxed out the GPU, Cell is still chillin at 50% while the GPU is crying for mercy. Also of note, is the fact that the Cells in the development kits are not at full speed yet, either.

I don't expect Sony to take the news that the GPU just got ate up before the product hits shelves very lightly. They will probably do something to speed up the gpu somehow. I wonder if they will find a way to make the GPU use XDR instead of GDDR3.. If that happens, then the GPUs RAM will be running at the same speed as everything else.... Dear God that would be a graphical titan!

holey moley i just thought

Hang on i thought the RSX was using XDR as default anyway?

Well if it isn't that could be the memory upgrade everyones talking about, think about it, the RSX will have it's own 512 of RAM 256 of GDDR and 256 of XDR, that means it wouldn't ever have to touch into the Cells RAM.

[Schmeh]

Yeah, it was the Cell that maxed out the GPU, Cell is still chillin at 50% while the GPU is crying for mercy. Also of note, is the fact that the Cells in the development kits are not at full speed yet, either.

I don't expect Sony to take the news that the GPU just got ate up before the product hits shelves very lightly. They will probably do something to speed up the gpu somehow. I wonder if they will find a way to make the GPU use XDR instead of GDDR3.. If that happens, then the GPUs RAM will be running at the same speed as everything else.... Dear God that would be a graphical titan!

I seriously doubt that there would be any change to the RSX other than possibly a clock speed bump. To get it to work with XDR would mean changing the memory controller on the chip and that could force them to have to redesign chip.

Also the Alpha Kit in the photos of MSG4 at TGS doesn't have the RSX in it. Infact, I don't think developers get the RSX until the final "PS3 Reference Tool" is released in December.

[Lefein]

Well, I didnt think about the memory controller and you are absolutely right. It's probably a good thing that a company like EA has tapped out the GPU while Sony still has time to make adjustments. I'm fairly confident the final product will be nothing short of a behemoth.

[arfi-gorgona-O]

HEh they don't need to change the RSX ,i don't know if they have the time to do it,but the main advantage is that the remaining power of cell is more than capable to produce GFX and AI,thats why we are going to see some incredible GFX,i think we are going to see top notch GFx from the start,not like the previews gens.just my thoughts.

[Reiaz]

As much as I want Sony to do a worldwide release, I don't think they will, true, Japan usually always gets Nintendo and Sony systems first, almost a year ahead of America, and Europe is even farther away, but hey, we get less bugs, better game selection, and europe gets like no bugs and tons of games. With all the talk of maybe beefing up the RSX, it would only push back the release date for a Japan launch back, doubt they would mass produce RSX's that weren't sufficient.
Unless they found a work around for it, like just have some SPE's work along side the GPU, so it would kinda like SLI lol.

[therza]

Sorry, Slightly off topic, dunno where to post this. But I keep hearing of these warhawk in-game footage vids, and am yet to lay my eyes on anything other than the very short e3 spoiler. Anyone got any links? (Lefein, apparently you're the go-tom man for warhawk...).

Funny thing is When EA releases games for PS3 and Xbox360, you will see no difference between the two.

While I don't necessarily agree with you, you have got me worried that the x360 will hold the ps3 back as far as devs like EA are concerned. Will EA do exclusives for next gen consoles? And will relative powers of the consoles be an issue? I know they're meant to pick a champ console and downgrade the games to port...

[Stoffinator]

Funny thing is When EA releases games for PS3 and Xbox360, you will see no difference between the two.

While I don't necessarily agree with you, you have got me worried that the x360 will hold the ps3 back as far as devs like EA are concerned. Will EA do exclusives for next gen consoles? And will relative powers of the consoles be an issue? I know they're meant to pick a champ console and downgrade the games to port...

I believe that will be the case. Pretty much what Xbox suffers from now. I do believe there will be some exclusives, but probably not much. Most games seem to go multi console. But the plus side? Look how Xbox is getting Doom3 and Half Life 2. In a few years will (PS3) will get the PC games 360 can't handle.

[Epsilon-Zero]

umm how do you guys know that the RSX isnt in those Alpha kits at TGS or that EA doesnt have Kits with the RSX?

I havent seen one link yet against what has been said in the article that the RSX isnt the GPU that has been tapped out. The article clearly says RSX and not GTX. So if you guys have evidence to say that its the GTX then bring it forth.

Ide like to also add that we dont know the specifics of every Dev kit made so far. Its very probable that Sony gave early beta development kits to the largest developers and also their in house and exclusive game developers.

See alot of wishful thinking going around here lately

[Steroyd]

yeah i think they'll roam freely on the PS3 and then compress like hell for the Xbox 360, just like the HDD 60% of consoles (i.e. PS2 and Gamecube) didn't have a Hard Drive, so the Xbox was able to utilise it as a exclusive feature.

[arfi-gorgona-O]

So what if even RSX is taped out?There is no difference at all to me,cell is more than capable to assist in GFX department and enhanced further the overall GFX power of the console.

[therza]

There is no clear evidence to suggest either which way. But quite frankly it doesn't matter as the kits are still in development. This is where sony's keeping shtum about the hardware pays dividends. Do you honestly think that after investing so much time and money they're going to let the rsx lag behind at launch?

Also, I thought the RSX had a higher fillrate than the 360 gpu? (Dunno for sure). Assuming thats all that is holding it all up, that the rsx can't display as quickly as the cell is feeding it then the graphics are already at a level that can't be matched by the 360?

And again, this is all only about the graphics, which alone a great game maketh not. You've got half the cell just for AI and Physics! Yowza, thats some serious flops...

For all we know, (using your own argument), EA could be outputting to dual 1080p!! (Very unlikely but you see my point, it's all speculation). At the end of the day I can only see all this as a plus since the ps3 has a LONG way till launch.

Finally, if Hideo Kojima didn't have the final dev kit (u could see the one he was using...) I doubt EA would.

[arfi-gorgona-O]

Epsilon-Zero

If the Ps3 already manage to tap the Power of the GPU and still have room for extra effects AI even GFX,then its sure a great archivements for sony,they manage to max the GFX possibilities of the Ps3,without bottlenecks and still they have room to improve GFX with cell,i bet thats something X-box cant handle.IF this statement is true we have a clear winner here.