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  1. #1
    Booneabal
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    Has the competition maxxed out? (Not flamebait! Logic...)

    Hear me out, we are told that competitive systems are easier to program games for.
    Logically this translates into:"It is easier to extract full performance without having to use complex programming techniques."
    If the 2nd statement is true then it follows that whereas a current PS3 game may use 30-40% of the systems potential, 1st gen games on competitive systems would have used perhaps 70% and 2nd & 3rd gen games should be using 90%.

    This is all logical right?

    Then isn't it concerning that both Halo 3 and Forza 2 have serious framerate and other graphical issues? Do owners of these systems care that their systems have maxxxed out or are they just happy with the 2 years of gaming they bought?

    http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/05...-will-improve/

    Edit: Thanks for your comments, I guess there is a consensus that the 3rd Gen Xbox titles are disappointing and not showing enough progression. Lets see if Sony can show the real next generation at E3!

    Edit 2:I can't help but notice that the "Xenon=Cell" or "unified memory>LS" misinformed quotes are from recent joiners who perhaps (1) haven't been reading the technical literature as long as some of us old dogs have or (2) are part of the Microsoft viral marketing squad. The architectures are radically different but M$ft themselves would tell you that the roles of each component in their system is more fixed (read:limited) than the PS3.....

    Edit 3: Many pages later, no one has been able to refute the simple 3 step logical thesis I presented. Indeed, the announcement of the Killzone Deferred Rendering Engine with MSAA running on Cell & RSX is a great endorsement of my thesis. Deferred Rendering has never been a practical solution despite its advantages. Somehow, Guerilla have broken through that wall using CELL. More to come from PS3, the competition? Notsomuch....

  2. #2
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    I think it is obvious that there is more potential and a longer lifespan which is why I choose the PS3 route but I think a better approach for discussion is what we have to look forward to on the PS3.

  3. #3
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    I think developers are going to start using the "we haven't even scratched the surface of what this machine can do" excuse a lot when they games are sub-par.

    That doesn't mean I disagree with that statement, but I think that now that developers know that their audience is aware of the learning curves of the machines, I think they will try to take advantage of that, and tell us that the "NEXT" game is going to look/perform great....and again...and again....and kinda lead us on.
    Kevin Levine on Bioshock PS3: "...we’re not talking about any other versions right now."

  4. #4
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    We'll soon see when KillZone is let loose upon the world at E3, won't we?

  5. #5
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    i agree with Organic_Shadow ... but only time will tell .... but we'll have the media to grace us with any news, that is if we dont get it first hands from the devs, which is what ide prefer...

  6. #6
    Bakari
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    The original Xbox was every bit as straight forward of a console and that didn't change the natural progression of graphics over time. There will never be a console that is maxed out within its first few years.

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    MMmmm I would say no. While they can "port" over games from the PC the Xbox 360 CPU is not an x86 chip. Coupled with that both GPU and CPU are "closed box". So while they may start hitting the glass ceiling with PC porting in mind. If they go down to the metal with the CPU and GPU I for one am sure that we haven't seen the best for the Xbox 360 as yet.
    The PS3 looks more than good enough for me .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Organic_Shadow View Post
    I think developers are going to start using the "we haven't even scratched the surface of what this machine can do" excuse a lot when they games are sub-par.

    That doesn't mean I disagree with that statement, but I think that now that developers know that their audience is aware of the learning curves of the machines, I think they will try to take advantage of that, and tell us that the "NEXT" game is going to look/perform great....and again...and again....and kinda lead us on.
    I really hope this isn't how things unfold. I think there will be some of this but I'm hoping that competition between the game companies keeps things going full speed. We are already seeing some of them step up and those that are not will likely lose out out on a lot of sales. At least I hope this is how it works out!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terarrim View Post
    MMmmm I would say no. While they can "port" over games from the PC the Xbox 360 CPU is not an x86 chip. Coupled with that both GPU and CPU are "closed box". So while they may start hitting the glass ceiling with PC porting in mind. If they go down to the metal with the CPU and GPU I for one am sure that we haven't seen the best for the Xbox 360 as yet.
    Does microsoft let devs get 'down to the metal'? or is that level of programing not allowed?

  10. #10
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    The hardware potential of both consoles are ~ same. Easier to program for should mean that it would reach the "max" sooner I think. Correct me if I am wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MiNiMaL_sAnItY View Post
    The hardware potential of both consoles are ~ same. Easier to program for should mean that it would reach the "max" sooner I think. Correct me if I am wrong.
    NO WAY... THe cell has much more potential then a 3 core PC. It was designed specifically for Parallel Floating Point Processing.

    You saw 360's Highest point with Gears of War. End of Story. Look at Halo 3, and Forza 2.. The top 2 biggest names for 360, and they look slightly better then there previous renditions.


  12. #12
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    I know for sure that the Wii is not maxed out !




  13. #13
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    Keep in mind the PS3 can be pushed to its hardware limits, like the PS2 because of its reliability of important components. I don't think you can say the same with the 360 because of the chance of frying the console.

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    Dont forget the blurred graphics when riding in the helicopter on R6V co-op. Its not even in-game as such, yet it would appear that the 360 has hit its limit.
    Then there is GeOW ( forgive me for saying what I am thinking here) although being graphically very good with some brilliant touches, it does fail IMO as a game on the whole. Its very small in many aspects and I have to wonder it is designed like this due to hardware limitations? I don't know the facts on this, but its a thought.
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  15. #15
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    I think with Sony the devs that will be setting the bar are there first party games and other devs will follow cuz they have to lol. Do I think the 360 is maxed out yet? No I don't, will that hold true in the next 2 years I don't know.


  16. #16
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    Gears IS sorta small, in terms of longetivity and scale, the graphics just EAT A WHOLE LOTTA OF DISC SPACE! Too much for DVD9 to take.

    Dave Karraker: For too long, people who didn't play games thought they were just for 11 year old boys, when that is simply not the case. I think we helped them see the light.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    We'll soon see when KillZone is let loose upon the world at E3, won't we?
    The funny thing about that is if it's not the exact same as the trailer but very, very close you will hear all kinds of trash talk even though it's still only a year into the life of a console that will get better and better for years to come. I think close to the trailer is scary. Exactly like the trailer would be like a countdown til the next system from the competition.

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  18. #18
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    I think that the 360 is close to being maxed out becuase of the simple fact of the disc space and the game length. If you want a great looking game then you will have to scarifice the graphics, if you want great graphics then your going to have to sacrifice the lenght of the game. And all because ms chose to stay with DVD9
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pgsley View Post
    I think that the 360 is close to being maxed out becuase of the simple fact of the disc space and the game length. If you want a great looking game then you will have to scarifice the graphics, if you want great graphics then your going to have to sacrifice the lenght of the game. And all because ms chose to stay with DVD9
    you just need to edit your post :P
    I concurr with what you tried to say!

  20. #20
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    Well, I'd say the 360 isnt quite maxed out yet. Gears is getting very close to maxing it out, but they'll always find ways to get a little more performance from the system by using better techniques.
    However, the ps3 isn't anywhere near to it being maxed out, lair will be the first game to show less than half of what it can do and i think games like mgs 4 and killzone will show maybe around 60 to 70 percent of what it can do.

  21. #21
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    During the session, the VP of Epic Games revealed that Gears of War played a key role in convincing Microsoft the Xbox 360 needed 512 MB of system memory instead of the 256 megs originally projected.

    "The interesting thing is that story you all heard about us costing Microsoft a billion dollars… that’s actually true," Rein explained to a laughing crowd.

    "So what happened was, my partner Tim Sweeney, we kept arguing and arguing like, we really wanted a hard drive in every single machine; that was something we really wanted but we realized that the 512 megs of RAM was way more important, cause otherwise you couldn’t do this level of graphics if you had to both write your program and do your graphics in 256 megs. Nothing would really look that HD."
    "So we argued, and argued, and what Tim did is he actually sent a screenshot of what Gears of War would look like if we only had 256 megs of memory. So the day they made the decision, we were apparently the first developed they called; we were at Game Developers Conference, was it two years ago, and then I got a call from the Chief Financial Officer of MGS and he said 'I just want you to know you cost me a billion dollars' and I said, 'we did a favor for a billion gamers'
    We all know that they went all out with their programming techniques to pull off how gears turned out in the end. Even if someone did the same techniques later in it's console life, I don't see how the graphics could be that much more of a big difference.

    So has gears pretty much pushed the limit as to what the 360 can do while maintaining at that level of details?


  22. #22
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    What if they had a Blu-ray storage medium, where one of the x360's cores could be free

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wh0 View Post
    The funny thing about that is if it's not the exact same as the trailer but very, very close you will hear all kinds of trash talk even though it's still only a year into the life of a console that will get better and better for years to come. I think close to the trailer is scary. Exactly like the trailer would be like a countdown til the next system from the competition.
    i laughed when i read this very good post, but sad to say good point.

    the only thing i would like to say in regards to the op is that i believe the 360 can compete with the ps3 but it is being held back due to space limitations.

    think about it forza 2 does not have the whole game and the devs will be releasing a downloadable pack soon for xbl (even though thoes with hard drives will be the only one available to use it)

    halo, imho is going through the same thing, why??? well why is halo 3 three disk, is it to match the third installation of the series, ... no, its because of space limitations, the single campaign is on one disk the multiplayer campaign is on the second disk with extras, and the third disk is a special disk... and bungie could not explain well enough to why halo 3 have two campaign disk...

    do i think the 360 is maxed... no i don't but in a way yes this couldbe true, i don't think it is maxed as far as hardware but due to the dvd space limitations it makes it maxed out, because you can only push as far as the storing capabilities provide a dev...

    this to me is shaming the gaming industry, Nintendo is currently doing it with the wii, and ms is doing it because of the big fat dollar sign...,when will people realize the truth...

  24. #24
    mmcg
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    Gears of War is probably as far as the 360 can go.

  25. #25
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    I think it will be more maxed out in storage medium then in power. But I personally don't see it getting any better then Gears for the 360. But we shall see. Maybe Halo 3 will look better? I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

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