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  1. #1
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    $199 HD-DVD player not so cheap- Oops

    Target.com has a pre-order listing for Venturer’s upcoming “cheap” HD DVD player. The only problem is the player is priced at $249.99. This contradicts the previous press release indicating the player will be priced at $199.00 or less. We wonder who on earth would buy this player, since our local Costco has the Toshiba HD-D2 for the same price.
    http://formatwarcentral.com/index.ph...-at-targetcom/

    http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html...sin=B000W7O43U

    so there goes the savior of the HD-DVD format, $249 just doesn't have the same ring to it that a $199. The PS3 is a much better deal and a hell of allot more reliable


  2. #2
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    That's interesting. I'm sure it won't be as enticing to buyers now.

  3. #3
    ghoulies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agriel View Post
    so there goes the savior of the HD-DVD format, $249 just doesn't have the same ring to it that a $199. The PS3 is a much better deal and a hell of allot more reliable

    lol Jus't don't understand your logic but ok. I mean, by better deal you mean you can play games on the PS3, then ok... but not all videophiles play video games. Reliable? Sure... since you know the statistics and all... Im not saying your not getting more out of your PS3 than you would a standalone HD DVD player (lol this is too funny to type since your comparing the 2) but to make claims about reliability and which you view is a better deal is just silly.

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    Is that player 1080p?????????????//

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by JarOfFlies View Post
    Is that player 1080p?????????????//
    Thats the question. And the answer is No.

    From Gizmodo.
    The SHD7000 will play back HD DVDs at 1080i, support Dolby TrueHD have HDMI output. It's fairly similar in functionality to Toshiba's low-end DVD player, but since it's from China, Venturer's able to cut the price down to the sub-$200 point. It doesn't qualify for the 5 free HD DVD movies like Toshiba players do.
    So not only does it not play 1080p, it does not get the 5 free movies deal. And its not even sub 200 yet. And no DTS-MA and probably no HDMI 1.3.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghoulies View Post
    lol Jus't don't understand your logic but ok. I mean, by better deal you mean you can play games on the PS3, then ok... but not all videophiles play video games. Reliable? Sure... since you know the statistics and all... Im not saying your not getting more out of your PS3 than you would a standalone HD DVD player (lol this is too funny to type since your comparing the 2) but to make claims about reliability and which you view is a better deal is just silly.
    why not try and comment on the thread article and not my opinion in my posts, I stand by it and I agree there is no comparing the 2, the PS3 is a better deal hands down, being that it is(or will be) the cheapest Blu-ray player thats where I compare


  7. #7
    ghoulies
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyD View Post
    Thats the question. And the answer is No.

    From Gizmodo.


    So not only does it not play 1080p, it does not get the 5 free movies deal. And its not even sub 200 yet. And no DTS-MA and probably no HDMI 1.3.


    ----
    We wonder who on earth would buy this player, since our local Costco has the Toshiba HD-D2 for the same price.
    Yea I dont know who would buy that player if the Tosh is sitting right there ready to be bought for the same price.

  8. #8
    BobsRevenge
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    Even at $100 an HD-DVD player couldn't outsell Playstation 3s this holiday season.

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    LoL! All he HD-DVD camp talked about this year was getting a $199 player on the market and they phailed?

    /sigh

    This "format war" is looking more like a format squabble or just straight up "format target practice" by the day..

  10. #10
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    lol...well ain't that some ****...who would of thunk...

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    LMAO!! So much for the cheap HD-DVD player we've heard about for the past 6 months or so. Whats really going to slow down HD-DVD players sales is Target.com is the only place you can get these HD-DUD players because they don't sell them in their stores, which will effect "some" customers who are thinking of getting into HD movies.

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    Like the other topic, what does this have to do with Blu-Ray?


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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Gamer View Post
    Like the other topic, what does this have to do with Blu-Ray?
    And what does your post add to the conversation other than you just raising your post count?

    This has everything to do with Blu-ray BECAUSE if HD-DVD can't get those "real" cheap players to the market soon that'll make it harder for HD-DVD to catch up to Blu-ray AND gives Blu-ray more time to get their cheap players out. Try looking at the big picture instead of just trying to increase your post count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Gamer View Post
    Like the other topic, what does this have to do with Blu-Ray?
    I guess ppl just decided to post HD-DVD new here because it's the only appropriate forum for it
    plus it's a rivalry format to Blu-ray, just the 360 is a rivalry console to Playstation 3, we discuss it
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  15. #15
    REFLEX
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyD View Post
    So not only does it not play 1080p, it does not get the 5 free movies deal. And its not even sub 200 yet. And no DTS-MA and probably no HDMI 1.3.
    1080i vs. 1080p coming from a HD DVD or Blu-ray player through HDMI are IDENTICAL, there is absolutely no different on a 1080p display. So... its a useless point of contention. It helps market things if you say it outputs 1080p for such things, since anyone who fully knows, understands there is zero difference.


    The PS3 cannot output DTS:MA/HD either, not yet anyway, and could never send it out Bitstream, ever. Also HDMI 1.3/1.3a is a lot of marketing hype, Blu-ray and HD DVD do NOT support Deep Color..... rather an expanded colorspace, which you don't need HDMI 1.3a for, rather 10 or 12 bit processing in your TV, which almost no TVs have until later this year or early next year. Either way....

    But I agree..... if they really wanted to make an impact they would have had the $199 price tag.



    Quote Originally Posted by The True Gamer View Post
    Like the other topic, what does this have to do with Blu-Ray?
    The end goal of this sub-forum (Blu-ray section) is to post all things Blu-ray, and also post other HD news.... so HD DVD counts, I have been posting larger HD DVD stories or events in here..... for a long time. This is where it should be.

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    There is still time to release a sub 200 dollar hd dvd player before christmas, its only october. Not that I would buy one. Im happey with my ps3 bluray and pretty much every hd dvd exclusive is available on the xbox marketplace in hd. No need for another hd player here.

  17. #17
    Nox
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    Why would HD movies advertise 1080p if there was no difference between it and 1080i?

    And btw, 250 bucks is a lot cheaper than current bluray players, I can't believe some people in this thread.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nox View Post
    Why would HD movies advertise 1080p if there was no difference between it and 1080i?

    And btw, 250 bucks is a lot cheaper than current bluray players, I can't believe some people in this thread.
    the point is there is and has been $250 HD-DVD players, this was suppose to be the savior of the HD-DVD format and $199 looks a lot better to a consumer then $249. I think HD-DVD players have always been cheaper


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by REFLEX View Post
    1080i vs. 1080p coming from a HD DVD or Blu-ray player through HDMI are IDENTICAL, there is absolutely no different on a 1080p display. So... its a useless point of contention. It helps market things if you say it outputs 1080p for such things, since anyone who fully knows, understands there is zero difference.


    The PS3 cannot output DTS:MA/HD either, not yet anyway, and could never send it out Bitstream, ever. Also HDMI 1.3/1.3a is a lot of marketing hype, Blu-ray and HD DVD do NOT support Deep Color..... rather an expanded colorspace, which you don't need HDMI 1.3a for, rather 10 or 12 bit processing in your TV, which almost no TVs have until later this year or early next year. Either way....

    But I agree..... if they really wanted to make an impact they would have had the $199 price tag.





    The end goal of this sub-forum (Blu-ray section) is to post all things Blu-ray, and also post other HD news.... so HD DVD counts, I have been posting larger HD DVD stories or events in here..... for a long time. This is where it should be.
    +rep for bringing your expert knowledge and cutting through all the nonsense (as usual) .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agriel View Post
    the point is there is and has been $250 HD-DVD players, this was suppose to be the savior of the HD-DVD format and $199 looks a lot better to a consumer then $249. I think HD-DVD players have always been cheaper
    ps3 = $400 when the 40gb model comes
    cheapest hd-dvd player = $250


    so

    $400 vs $250
    to watch hd-movies

    what would customers pick

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by REFLEX View Post
    1080i vs. 1080p coming from a HD DVD or Blu-ray player through HDMI are IDENTICAL, there is absolutely no different on a 1080p display. So... its a useless point of contention. It helps market things if you say it outputs 1080p for such things, since anyone who fully knows, understands there is zero difference.


    The PS3 cannot output DTS:MA/HD either, not yet anyway, and could never send it out Bitstream, ever. Also HDMI 1.3/1.3a is a lot of marketing hype, Blu-ray and HD DVD do NOT support Deep Color..... rather an expanded colorspace, which you don't need HDMI 1.3a for, rather 10 or 12 bit processing in your TV, which almost no TVs have until later this year or early next year. Either way....

    But I agree..... if they really wanted to make an impact they would have had the $199 price tag.





    The end goal of this sub-forum (Blu-ray section) is to post all things Blu-ray, and also post other HD news.... so HD DVD counts, I have been posting larger HD DVD stories or events in here..... for a long time. This is where it should be.
    Obviously, a native 1080p signal coming out of a BD player or HD DVD player over HDMI is different from a native 1080p signal converted to 1080i coming out of an HD DVD player over HDMI. Whether or not you see the difference on your display depends on the size and native resolution of the display, the quality of the display's de-interlacing (if applicable), the content, your veiwing distance, your eyesight, etc. You can argue that most people won't be able to tell the difference, but that's different from saying that there is no difference. 1080i and 1080p over HDMI are not identical.

    In addition, it isn't just marketing hype. Sure, one isn't likely to see a difference between "Glengarry Glen Ross" in 1080i and in 1080p on a 13" screen. But for much larger displays and content with a lot more motion, more people are likely to be able to see a difference at normal viewing distances. I just don't see how you can claim that no one can see a difference under any circumstances like it's a scientific law or something. 1080p displays are still relatively new, and the their performance is still improving (compare the 60" Pioneer Pioneer Elite Pro-150FD to first gen 1080p displays) . One can't establish that the human eye isn't able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p, scientifically. And anecdotally, many people prefer 720p over 1080i for content with a lot of motion. So, I would expect them to prefer 1080p over 1080i for content with a lot of motion, as well.

    As for HDMI 1.3, Deep Color isn't the only new feature supported by HDMI 1.3. Lip synch, bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, and higher bandwith are other features. I know for a fact that there are already HD disc players that output bitstreamed DTS-HD MA and/or Dolby TrueHD. So, HDMI 1.3 clearly is not just marketing hype.

    And as I understand it, for Deep Color -- the content has to be encoded in Deep Color, the HD disc player has to support Deep Color, and the display has to support Deep Color (also, anything connected between the HD disc player and the display would have to support it). I'm not sure if any released or announced HD disc players support 30-bit plus color or not, but there's no reason why they couldn't. There is no limitation in either format that would prevent it. If someone buys a player or receiver because it has HDMI 1.3 ports and they believe that it supports Deep Color when it doesn't and/or they think they can get Deep Color without a display that supports it -- then that's their fault, not marketing hype. I would be very surprised to see a company actually claim that its product supports Deep Color when it doesn't. And to be clear, Deep Color is not 10 or 12-bit color. It's 30-bit or more.

    On what basis are you concluding that the PS3 will never be able to bitstream DTS-HD MA? What necessary hardware does it lack?

    EDIT: There have been displays that support 10 or 12-bit color for quite a while now.

  22. #22
    REFLEX
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    The frame rates between 1080i and 1080p coming from a pure 1080p source and then through HDMI make 1080i VS. 1080p useless, there is no difference, even in fast moving scenes. They are basically identical, you will never see a difference. If a TV properly deinterlaces 1080i material there is no "fast motion" preference, you are merely thinking of TV signals, this is totally different I'm afraid, you got it wrong.

    It is mostly marketing hype since the vast majority of the market have no clue what HDMI 1.3a can do, or how to use it. And how can you say it isn't marketing hype when they advertise "Deep Color" on their products? Blu-ray and HD DVD do not support Deep Color, its never going to be on either format. Ever. Thats a fact.

    I never said Deep Color was 10 bit or 12 bit. I said expanded Color Space was, most people don't understand the difference. SD Decoders use 601 Decoding, and have since the 1990s, same with 701 decoding for HD Material, but almost no one uses it in their 10 or 12 bit TVs, thats why its useless if you have a 10 or 12 bit TV without the proper decoder - thus my comments before.

    It is Marketing hype. On what basis? The basis that the DTS Organization said more than once that for the PS3 to be able to Bistream DTS:MA is impossible. They also said that if the PS3 wants to decode it they would have to work closely with Sony, something which no one has talked to them about. So I never said it was impossible to decode, I said its not going to happen soon. And it wouldn't be a feature of HDMI 1.3a, rather the decoding and sending as LienarPCM, something which HDMI 1.2 could handle, let a lone HDMI 1.2a.

    I didn't argue that "people wouldn't see the difference"... because there is ZERO difference between 1080i and 1080p with films off of HD DVD or Blu-ray, you can argue all you want, but there is no difference. Heres why:



    There Is No Difference Between 1080p and 1080i
    My bold-printed, big-lettered breaker above is a little sensationalistic, but, as far as movies are concerned, this is basically true. Here's why. Movies (and most TV shows) are shot at 24 frames per second (either on film or on 24-frame-per-second HD cameras). Every TV sold in the United States has a refresh rate of 60 hertz. This means that the screen refreshes 60 times per second. In order to display 24-frame-per-second content on a display that essentially shows 60 frames per second, you need to make up or create new frames. This is accomplished by a method called 3:2 pulldown (or, more accurately, 2:3 pulldown). It doubles the first frame of film, triples the second frame, doubles the third frame, and so on, creating a 2-3-2-3-2-3 sequence. (Check out Figure 1 for a more colorful depiction.) So, the new frames don't have new information; they are just duplicates of the original film frames. This process converts 24-frame-per-second film to be displayed on a 60-Hz display.
    It's Deinterlacing, Not Scaling
    HD DVD and Blu-ray content is 1080p/24. If your player outputs a 60-Hz signal (that is, one that your TV can display), the player is adding (creating) the 3:2 sequence. So, whether you output 1080i or 1080p, it is still inherently the same information. The only difference is in whether the player interlaces it and your TV deinterlaces it, or if the player just sends out the 1080p signal directly. If the TV correctly deinterlaces 1080i, then there should be no visible difference between deinterlaced 1080i and direct 1080p (even with that extra step). There is no new information—nor is there more resolution, as some people think. This is because, as you can see in Figure 1, there is no new information with the progressive signal. It's all based on the same original 24 frames per second.


    Because IT IS Scientific law. MOTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

    What would sitting distance, and material have to do with anything if they are on Blu-ray or HD DVD? 1080i is still the same resolution as 1080p, same resolution, same amount of visual information, same SMPTE rating for distance, same THX rating for distance, same degree of viewing angle, same screen size, its all the same, now if it were coming from the Cable or Satellite then its different sure.


    Thats why, and the only way you can see a difference is with TVs that support 1080p/24. This has been known for a long time, 1080p/24 as existed for a long time, but only recently implemented into TVs this fall/winter. And/or 120hz TVs. Things like Sony's "Motion Flow" technology.


    Lip synch is the only thing truly worth mentioning right now. Thats about it. Although most people don't report problems before hand anyway. HDMI is actually considered one of the biggest blunders in the Home Theater world, it had no proper implementation or organization and the regulation and standardization on the product was terrible, from Silicon to everyone who was responsible for making HDMI the HDCP Compliant "must have", even though there were better alternatives.


    Bitstreaming TrueHD or anything else other than DTS:MA/HD is pointless, since almost all players can decode and send it out anyway. If the PS3 had the ability to use DTS:MA/HD it would be in this way, not Bitstreaming it, thats also a fact.

    Same with Deep Color, its a lesser known fact, but a fact none the less, Blu-ray and HD DVD do not support Deep Color in any way shape or form, and never will.

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