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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    S3D did reasonably well over time, but the gripe with many people was you had to don glasses, now how would you sell PS VR to such people when you need to put on a bigger piece of plastic on your head to enjoy it?
    What alternative are you expecting?

    And the ps4 pro simply isn't powerful enough to have VR games with a level of graphical fidelity you would see on uncharted or horizon, you have to compromise on graphics just for the VR effect.
    I'm pretty sure it's mostly core gamers who are interested in realistic graphics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    I dont see much enthusiasm for VR on these forums either, apart from a handful of people who keep saying how great VR is.
    That's because these forums are filled with fogies and contrarians. On Facebook, I see a lot more enthusiasm for VR. Forums as a whole are dying out, except for help forums where you ask a question and people say "Use google" so you use google and find the forum telling you to use google... Sorry, unrelated, but I can't stand that sort of thing. In any case, (this style of) forum users are the old guard now. Most people have moved on, as much as I hate trying to have discussions with strangers on facebook or what have you.

    Thing is... As I've said for a long time, it's gonna be slow. I still think 10 year before we see true market saturation. Everyone preaching doom and gloom at this time, and $#@!ing about it when they haven't tried it, and doing things like denying VR legs exists etc. are being very shortsighted.

    Combined VR / AR (because in a couple of generations, it will be all be combined and there will no longer be an either / or situation) is the future. You neo-luddites can mock it, and celebrate its supposed demise, but this is where technology is going. Prior to DK1, VR had false starts. DK1 (though itself not true VR) was the actual birth of this industry, and it is still in its infancy. In 5 years, it will reach strong hobbyist status like the NES had, and in 10, mainstream like the PS1 had. The prices have to come down and some more hardware kinks have to be worked out, but to look at current sales is extremely short sighted.
    Last edited by bobtheduck; 06-14-2017 at 03:18.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyse View Post
    What alternative are you expecting?


    I'm pretty sure it's mostly core gamers who are interested in realistic graphics.
    1. Unless they could ever come up with VR that doesn't require additional gear, i dont see it taking off ever on a mainstream level. Something that requires additional gear to be mounted to enjoy just doesnt sit well with the mainstream crowd, as was evident with S3D and now even more so with VR.
    2. who's to say that people who are interested in VR are not core gamers? I'm sure they are, i don't think casuals would invest this kind of money in buying additional headgear. But as limited as the power of the ps4 is, with VR games they have to compromise on the graphics front.
    Last edited by rene2kx; 06-14-2017 at 08:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobtheduck View Post
    That's because these forums are filled with fogies and contrarians. On Facebook, I see a lot more enthusiasm for VR. Forums as a whole are dying out, except for help forums where you ask a question and people say "Use google" so you use google and find the forum telling you to use google... Sorry, unrelated, but I can't stand that sort of thing. In any case, (this style of) forum users are the old guard now. Most people have moved on, as much as I hate trying to have discussions with strangers on facebook or what have you.

    Thing is... As I've said for a long time, it's gonna be slow. I still think 10 year before we see true market saturation. Everyone preaching doom and gloom at this time, and $#@!ing about it when they haven't tried it, and doing things like denying VR legs exists etc. are being very shortsighted.

    Combined VR / AR (because in a couple of generations, it will be all be combined and there will no longer be an either / or situation) is the future. You neo-luddites can mock it, and celebrate its supposed demise, but this is where technology is going. Prior to DK1, VR had false starts. DK1 (though itself not true VR) was the actual birth of this industry, and it is still in its infancy. In 5 years, it will reach strong hobbyist status like the NES had, and in 10, mainstream like the PS1 had. The prices have to come down and some more hardware kinks have to be worked out, but to look at current sales is extremely short sighted.
    I visit a couple of tech forums, not just this game forum, off which i am basing my opinion on. When S3D was newly launched, there was more enthusiasm for it, so far for VR i find less.
    And if you say it still needs 10 years for market saturation, then you are simply accepting the technology isnt there right now and it would take a long time. Hard to get optimistic about something like that. For all we know, people in 10 years might have moved to something else and VR would just have been a forgotten experiment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    I visit a couple of tech forums, not just this game forum,
    Forums are filled with the old guard. That was, in fact, something I said in my original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    off which i am basing my opinion on. When S3D was newly launched, there was more enthusiasm for it, so far for VR i find less.
    Because S3d is easy to understand. Everyone who has visited Disneyland or Universal Studios had seen it prior to the 3d boom, and everyone has seen it now. VR needs to be demoed on a one by one basis. 99.9% of people haven't tried it, and some that have only got short or poor demos.
    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    And if you say it still needs 10 years for market saturation, then you are simply accepting the technology isnt there right now and it would take a long time.
    No, I'm accepting VR is a hard sell. It'll need the equivalent of "Tupperware parties" to sell. People need to see it in person closed quarters to understand. It'll take 10 years because that's how long it will take for people to get their friends to demo it, get some of them to buy, get some of those friends to demo it, etc
    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    Hard to get optimistic about something like that. For all we know, people in 10 years might have moved to something else and VR would just have been a forgotten experiment.
    You can think that, but you're wrong. I haven't seen a single person try VR and not be really impressed by it. The feeling is not matched by anything else in technology.
    Last edited by bobtheduck; 06-14-2017 at 09:01.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobtheduck View Post
    Forums are filled with the old guard. That was, in fact, something I said in my original post.



    Because S3d is easy to understand. Everyone who has visited Disneyland or Universal Studios had seen it prior to the 3d boom, and everyone has seen it now. VR needs to be demoed on a one by one basis. 99.9% of people haven't tried it, and some that have only got short or poor demos.
    No, I'm accepting VR is a hard sell. It'll need the equivalent of "Tupperware parties" to sell.

    You can think that, but you're wrong. I haven't seen a single person try VR and not be really impressed by it. The feeling is not matched by anything else in technology.
    You're discounting forums but you are citing facebook as your source? If anything, i would expect real tech enthusiasts on tech forums, not facebook. And the vr vibe on the forums just isnt there any more. there was talk of vr gear like or and ps vr when they were first announced, but now the vibe seems to have died down.

    S3D being easier to understand isn't the only factor. With VR, you need to strap an even bigger piece of plastic to your head than just a pair of glasses you needed for S3D. With VR, you get much more fatigue and eye strain than you even got with AS (Active Shutter) S3D.

    And you say VR is a hard sell, what in 10 years would make it an easier sell according to you, could they make it gearless? If not, it isnt ever going to reach mainstream status.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    You're discounting forums but you are citing facebook as your source?
    EDIT HA! /Facebook.

    Yup. Because the people that still hang around forums have an older thinking on these things, while the people on facebook are more diverse. Diverse is the key.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    If anything, i would expect real tech enthusiasts on tech forums, not facebook.
    Nah, they're hanging around reddit and tech blogs. Not forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    And the vr vibe on the forums just isnt there any more. there was talk of vr gear like or and ps vr when they were first announced, but now the vibe seems to have died down.
    It'll come back as more and more people are introduced to it firsthand with good demos.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    S3D being easier to understand isn't the only factor. With VR, you need to strap an even bigger piece of plastic to your head than just a pair of glasses you needed for S3D. With VR, you get much more fatigue and eye strain than you even got with AS (Active Shutter) S3D.
    Except that's not really true. Eye fatigue comes from not blinking and not looking at something far away. Whether you're looking at your phone or a VR device, you'll have the problem pretty well equally at that point. Being a bit closer doesn't change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    And you say VR is a hard sell, what in 10 years would make it an easier sell according to you
    More people getting good demos. That's it. Think of it this way: 1 person shows it to 15 people, gets 6 immediately interested and gets 1 to buy it. The other 5 will only buy it once more people have it, so the process continues until it gets big enough for one or two of those other 5. Then the tech improves and gets another 5 in that group to be really interested, etc. It'll be a slow burn. Not because the tech isn't there, but because of what it takes to tell people about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    , could they make it gearless? If not, it isnt ever going to reach mainstream status.
    Hahaha, no. Gearless? What does that even mean? VR gear will get smaller, wireless, etc, but it doesn't need to be "gearless" (seriously, what?) for it to succeed.
    Last edited by bobtheduck; 06-14-2017 at 23:01.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    1. Unless they could ever come up with VR that doesn't require additional gear, i dont see it taking off ever on a mainstream level. Something that requires additional gear to be mounted to enjoy just doesnt sit well with the mainstream crowd, as was evident with S3D and now even more so with VR.
    Do you think VR is fairing any better on smartphones than PS VR? Both require additional gear.

    2. who's to say that people who are interested in VR are not core gamers?
    I didn't say they weren't, just that core gamers don't define the mass appeal of a product as much as the casual crowd. Core gamers who deride the casual crowd don't seem to realize this, yet are prideful of video games being bigger and more accepted than ever before.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobtheduck View Post
    EDIT HA! /Facebook.

    Yup. Because the people that still hang around forums have an older thinking on these things, while the people on facebook are more diverse. Diverse is the key.

    Nah, they're hanging around reddit and tech blogs. Not forums.
    So tech opinions on facebook are more 'official' and should be trusted more than people on dedicated technology forums that also get tech industry people? bs. And what is 'older thinking'? I have never been to a tech forum where people are averse to new technology or innovation.

    Except that's not really true. Eye fatigue comes from not blinking and not looking at something far away. Whether you're looking at your phone or a VR device, you'll have the problem pretty well equally at that point. Being a bit closer doesn't change that.
    I said compared to S3D, VR causes a lot more fatigue and eye strain and this is fact. This has been demonstrated by tests sitting people through VR sessions making them wear the headgear. People with no prior history of seizures have reported discomfort in using VR for long sessions.

    Hahaha, no. Gearless? What does that even mean? VR gear will get smaller, wireless, etc, but it doesn't need to be "gearless" (seriously, what?) for it to succeed.
    You missed the core point, i said S3D failed to gain mainstream status because the number one complaint was that you had put on glasses. With VR, you have to strap on an even bigger headgear, companies can reduce the headgears in size, make them smaller and all, but as long as VR requires additional equipment to enjoy, it will never ever see mainstream status.

    It'll come back as more and more people are introduced to it firsthand with good demos.
    Sony's VR headset is not even available any more to be demoed in most stores now. When it launched, stores carried around demo units for ps vr for a while but most dont have them now (probably the stores felt there was a lack of interest)

    And on the games front for vr, what really has sony put out on the ps4 thus far that could blow you away? The only half interesting game they might have put out might be resident evil. but that game doesnt have gfx on the level of uncharted or horizon, which brings me back to the point that with vr games, you have to compromise on the gfx front.
    Last edited by rene2kx; 06-15-2017 at 03:48.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyse View Post
    Do you think VR is fairing any better on smartphones than PS VR? Both require additional gear.
    Far as sales go, smartphone vr-like google cardboard and samsung vr have pushed more numbers than ps vr and or due to them being much cheaper but they haven't been close to what you would call mass appeal either. VR as a whole in 2016 fell a lot below what analysts were expecting in sales numbers.

    I didn't say they weren't, just that core gamers don't define the mass appeal of a product as much as the casual crowd. Core gamers who deride the casual crowd don't seem to realize this, yet are prideful of video games being bigger and more accepted than ever before.
    I'm specifically talking about PS VR here. Core gamers are willing to spend a lot more than casual gamers are willing to spend on new tech. Consider the price of admission for ps vr. If you are starting from scratch, you need a ps4, ps vr headset, camera and move controller. Add that up and you're looking upwards of 700 dollars to enjoy ps vr. Why do you think that at such a steep price point, the casual crowd would define the mass appeal of the product? Are casual gamers in general even willing to spend this much on new tech? I don't think so.
    Last edited by rene2kx; 06-15-2017 at 04:41.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    So tech opinions on facebook are more 'official' and should be trusted more than people on dedicated technology forums that also get tech industry people? bs.
    Dedicated forums of any kind have people excited about tech that fits their way of thinking, and that way is "older", full of its own bugbears that don't apply to the world at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    And what is 'older thinking'? I have never been to a tech forum where people are averse to new technology or innovation.
    You weren't on many tech forums around the launch of the ipod, iphone, or ipad were you? After all, none of them were first of their respective kinds. LOTS of negativity about each of them. What? Inferior MP3 when I could listen to CD or even Superaudio CD? What? No buttons (that still bugs me, actually... VR notwithstanding, I consider myself part of that old guard)? No one will go for that. Why does your phone need to do all that?

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    I said compared to S3D, VR causes a lot more fatigue and eye strain and this is fact. This has been demonstrated by tests sitting people through VR sessions making them wear the headgear. People with no prior history of seizures have reported discomfort in using VR for long sessions.
    Hmm... Still skeptical. Can't tell you how many times I've seen improperly aligned 3d in a movie and have it give me a headache (3d 360 vids sometimes do the same), but actual VR games don't do that to me.

    [QUOTE=rene2kx;6530511]You missed the core point, i said S3D failed to gain mainstream status because the number one complaint was that you had put on glasses. [/spoiler] And yet most people still go to 3d movies.

    Really, the reason it failed (in the HOME market) is because it doesn't add much. VR adds a HELL of a lot more, especially considering 3d is PART of VR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    With VR, you have to strap on an even bigger headgear, companies can reduce the headgears in size, make them smaller and all, but as long as VR requires additional equipment to enjoy, it will never ever see mainstream status.
    Just like no one will ever carry a larger phone around when small ones are available, or type messages on touch screens with no tactile feedback or...

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    Sony's VR headset is not even available any more to be demoed in most stores now.
    Gonna stop you right there. When the hell did I say STORE demos. Store demos always suck. Remember when every store showed off HDTVs by showing non-upconverted DVDs? No. I said people demo for their friends. The fact you had to ignore that and turn it into store demos shows you're not really paying attention to what I'm writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    And on the games front for vr, what really has sony put out on the ps4 thus far that could blow you away? The only half interesting game they might have put out might be resident evil. but that game doesnt have gfx on the level of uncharted or horizon, which brings me back to the point that with vr games, you have to compromise on the gfx front.
    This makes me feel you haven't really tried it. Yeah, the visuals are a downgrade from other games in the same gen. It's a given. It also doesn't matter unless you only see the game on a flat screen. It takes more resources to do VR, especially to meet the strict requirements Sony established (high, locked FPS most importantly). Every VR game will look a generation behind, or at least half a generation behind. Thing is... this doesn't really matter. Even basic, ancient looking games like Mervils and Windlands are impressive. But if you want pretty games (comparable to RE7), there's also Moss, Robinson, Batman, VR Worlds...

    VR will always be a downgrade in things like shaders and poly count, but that goes out the window when you wear the thing. Even games with terrible textures (like Windlands) make you feel like you're inside them. It doesn't feel like you're on a grassy knoll, but it feels like you're on a real, huge cardboard world flying through the sky.

    Pretty much anytime anyone talks about the poly count or texture downgrade involved in VR, it's an instant giveaway they haven't actually spent any time in VR.
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    VR is about the experience. Not the graphics.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal View Post
    VR is about the experience. Not the graphics.....
    The graphics help the experience, especially with VR.

  14. #39
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    Yeah, gaming in general is about the experience but we sure like our graphics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
    Why do you think that at such a steep price point, the casual crowd would define the mass appeal of the product?
    People continue to purchase the latest smartphones (let alone additional gear for VR) so I don't think a steep price point is necessarily scaring away the casual crowd. And if you're someone who thinks video game consoles are becoming more like smartphones or PCs with an upgraded version of the product releasing much sooner than expected, it just further illustrates how the market is changing, even though video game consoles are designed to last and are supported for 5 or more years.
    Last edited by Vyse; 06-17-2017 at 22:12.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    The graphics help the experience, especially with VR.
    Not quite. Not to the point that bad visuals = bad experience, and definitely not the "especially in VR" bit. I disagree with that completely. I'd never play a game like Mervils if it weren't for VR. It looks hideous and amateurish and that would turn me off. In VR, everything changes. Hell, even "Here They Lie", which updated to include a non-VR mode, is amazingly boring on a TV screen. Here They Lie is an experience that no non-VR game has come close to approximating. Out of VR, it's just another stylish avant garde horror game, and not that interesting.
    Last edited by bobtheduck; 06-18-2017 at 09:43.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobtheduck View Post
    Not quite. Not to the point that bad visuals = bad experience, and definitely not the "especially in VR" bit. I disagree with that completely. I'd never play a game like Mervils if it weren't for VR. It looks hideous and amateurish and that would turn me off. In VR, everything changes. Hell, even "Here They Lie", which updated to include a non-VR mode, is amazingly boring on a TV screen. Here They Lie is an experience that no non-VR game has come close to approximating. Out of VR, it's just another stylish avant garde horror game.
    I'm not sure what you're saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying.
    I'm saying that the best visuals are not necessary for good VR, and crappy looking games outside of VR can be entirely different in VR. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that. What makes it feel "real" isn't the detail on your characters pores in 22k 180 fps. It's the fact that it takes up your entire view and you can look around. That's literally all it takes, and everything feels "real" at least the same way a dark ride at Disney feels real, though sometimes more because you can interact with it in some way.
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    I'm not talking about bleeding edge visuals. Just as long as the frame rate is high so it doesn't detract from the immersion. Nothing pulls you out of VR immersion faster than slow frame rates. Frame rates are a part of "graphics" ... that's what I was referring to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    I'm not talking about bleeding edge visuals. Just as long as the frame rate is high so it doesn't detract from the immersion. Nothing pulls you out of VR immersion faster than slow frame rates. Frame rates are a part of "graphics" ... that's what I was referring to.
    Well, good thing for you, that part's covered, and maybe the FPS part of my statement was unnecessary. That's the only part of the "graphics" that matters, really. None of the PSVR games have framerate issues.
    Last edited by bobtheduck; 06-19-2017 at 12:15.
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