Microsoft Admits Windows 10 Automatic Spying Cannot Be Stopped

Omar

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#1
last week changes to the windows 10 upgrade path mean it is going to becomeincreasingly difficult for any non-techy users to avoid being pushed to microsoft msft +0.00%’s new operating system. But given windows 10 is better than windows 7 and windows 8, why would that be a problem? Because of policies like this…speaking to pc world, microsoft corporate vice president joe belfiore explained that windows 10 is constantly tracking how it operates and how you are using it and sending that information back to microsoft by default. More importantly he also confirmed that, despite offering some options to turn elements of tracking off, core data collection simply cannot be stopped:
“in the cases where we’ve not provided options, we feel that those things have to do with the health of the system,” he said. “in the case of knowing that our system that we’ve created is crashing, or is having serious performance problems, we view that as so helpful to the ecosystem and so not an issue of personal privacy, that today we collect that data so that we make that experience better for everyone.”
this backs up detailed data that some had chosen to dismiss as conspiracy theories.

windows 10 has great potential, but aggressive update and user tracking policies. Image credit: Microsoft

still, whether or not you agree with belfiore’s standpoint that this doesn’t invade user privacy, it does seem strange that it has taken microsoft so long to come clean and admit core windows 10 background data collection processes cannot be stopped. Instead it gave the impression that turning off all user accessible spying options in windows 10 settings would provide owners with full privacy – that’s tantamount to spying.

to his credit, belfiore does recognise the controversial nature of this decision and stresses that:
“we’re going to continue to listen to what the broad public says about these decisions, and ultimately our goal is to balance the right thing happening for the most people – really, for everyone – with complexity that comes with putting in a whole lot of control.”
interestingly belfiore himself won’t be around to oversee this as he is about to take a year long sabbatical. When he comes back, however, i suspect this issue will still be raging as windows and devices group head terry myerson recently confirmedwindows 10 enterprise users will be able to disable every single aspect of microsoft data collection.
this comes in combination with windows 10 pro and enterprise users’ ability to permanently disable automatic updates which are forced upon consumers and shows the growing divide between how microsoft is treating consumers versus corporations.
so how concerned should users be about windows 10’s default data collection policies? I would say very.
by default windows 10 home is allowed to control your bandwidth usage, install any software it wants whenever it wants (without providing detailed information on what these updates do), display ads in the start menu (currently it has been limited to app advertisements), send your hardware details and any changes you make to microsoft and even log your browser history and keystrokes which the windows end user licence agreement (eula) states you allow microsoft to use for analysis.
the good news: Even if belfiore states you cannot switch off everything, editing your privacy settings will disable the worst of these. To find them open the start menu > settings > privacy.
the bad news: Despite belfiore’s pledge “to continue to listen”, microsoft’s actions (including the impending windows 7 and windows 8 upgrade pressure) suggests the company’s recent love for big brother tactics is only going to get worse before it gets better…
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonk...oft-confirms-unstoppable-windows-10-tracking/

either we are stupid or they are convinced that we are stupid. maybe a bit of both?

i'm tired of saying, "i called this years ago..." i started calling for this when they announced the X1.
 

Nerevar

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#2
I'll move to Windows 10 when some group of coders out there inevitably release a pirated copy of W10 with these 'features' gutted.
 

Lethal

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#4
Meh. Spy on me all you want. I have nothing to hide. I am proud of the amount of porn I watch!!!!
 

Omar

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#5
it's not about one person, it's about many people and how big data can be used to abuse, discriminate and suppress the population. not to mention, they'll constantly sell your information to whoever wants it (insurance/health/marketing companies).
 

Lethal

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#6
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6485946]it's not about one person, it's about many people and how big data can be used to abuse, discriminate and suppress the population. not to mention, they'll constantly sell your information to whoever wants it (insurance/health/marketing companies).[/QUOTE]

I guess I am just not too bothered by it.
 

Omar

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#7
that's my point, it doesn't matter if one person is or not. i'm not bothered by it either. i know i'm not going to get targetted but if you research into this, you'll realize why this is not good for the people of this country.
 

Nerevar

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#8
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6485938]Meh. Spy on me all you want. I have nothing to hide. I am proud of the amount of porn I watch!!!![/QUOTE]

I also have nothing to hide. But give an inch and they'll eventually take a mile. My business and yours is none of theirs to worry about. It's a matter of principle.
 

Omar

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#9
exactly, this is pretty harmless right now until it's going to start becoming a problem for everyone. companies don't even know what to do with all the data right now, we're going to start seeing technologies built around our data and that's when things are going to be too late. everything is going to be monitored in the future. no ifs or buts.

about technologies being built around the data. people who are new to this, do you ever wonder why we're getting really insane tech like "finger print-enabled" devices now? just to log in? seriously? why waste some serious tech like finger printing on just a stupid log in? a bit excessive isn't it?

or things like where the device knows who you are? or why FB is so interested in VR? it's because they want to collect more and more data about you. this data can be used by anyone as long as they pay for it. that's how they make money.

isn't that bound to get into the wrong hands? well we have proof of this, companies discriminate against people based on data. yeah those new workout bands are cool right? to keep track of your health? guess who else has access to that, i'll let the audience guess this one.

every single new technology coming out has some sort of troll feature that i can't approve of. i have gone from being a tech nut to almost hating it altogether and i now dream of going off the grid. i only do what i need now, the rest i avoid.
 

Ezekiel

Forum Sage
Apr 29, 2006
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#10
I called this years ago. The arrogance these corporations display on a daily basis is out of this world. But hey. You all have nothing to hide, right?

/sarcasm
 

FinalxxSin

Dedicated Member
Jul 26, 2015
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#11
I didn't upgrade to 10 because I heard from a friend about some of the issues he was having with it. I assumed it was still a bit on the buggy side and wanted to wait until the wrinkles got worked out. This.......this pretty much tells me to stick to 8. I don't even like 8 all that much, so I may revert back to 7 at some point in time.
 

Scheller

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May 9, 2006
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#12
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6485938]Meh. Spy on me all you want. I have nothing to hide. I am proud of the amount of porn I watch!!!![/QUOTE]

As others have said, that's not really what it's about. The spying/collecting info is the issue, not whether they are finding stuff that people wouldn't want to be found. The bolded stuff below should be seen as a problem to anyone:

By default Windows 10 Home is allowed to control your bandwidth usage, install any software it wants whenever it wants (without providing detailed information on what these updates do), display ads in the Start Menu (currently it has been limited to app advertisements), send your hardware details and any changes you make to Microsoft and even log your browser history and keystrokes which the Windows End User Licence Agreement (EULA) states you allow Microsoft to use for analysis.
I can't see how anyone can be okay with those things. Knowing that when you type in your password, Microsoft has that info somewhere (some people prefer not to have their passwords being known to various parties as it increases the chance of it being compromised). Not knowing exactly what they are installing on your computer should also make you a bit uncomfortable. Ads in the Start Menu and Open with... menu are also pretty lame.

I'm still going to be using Windows 10 since it's a pain to de-upgrade, but when I'm not using the computer to play a game or use a particular program (Photoshop, SketchUp, etc) then I'm using Ubuntu.
 

Omar

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#13
[QUOTE="FinalxxSin, post: 6486012]I didn't upgrade to 10 because I heard from a friend about some of the issues he was having with it. I assumed it was still a bit on the buggy side and wanted to wait until the wrinkles got worked out. This.......this pretty much tells me to stick to 8. I don't even like 8 all that much, so I may revert back to 7 at some point in time.[/QUOTE]
exactly what i'm going to do. will stick with W7 until it's basically outdated to the point where i'm forced to upgrade. which i'm assuming will not be for another 5+ years. considering i was just using XP last year and only upgraded because some of the games don't run on XP anymore lol.

actually i'd rather give up on PC gaming and move on to steam machines or steam OS.
 

Omar

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#15
there's no reason to upgrade other than gaming (hardcore gaming) or if you were into art applications. Windows 10 isn't anything special. they fix some stuff that was wrong with Win 8 but it's still not as simple as Windows 7.
 

MATRIX 2

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#16
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6486111]there's no reason to upgrade other than gaming (hardcore gaming) or if you were into art applications. Windows 10 isn't anything special. they fix some stuff that was wrong with Win 8 but it's still not as simple as Windows 7.[/QUOTE]


Now you are being disingenuous.
 

Omar

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#17
[QUOTE="MATRIX 2, post: 6486179]Now you are being disingenuous.[/QUOTE]umm no i'm not. i have Win 10 on my laptop and it's shit compared to the Win 7 I had on it previously. it runs worse, gives me 0 extra benefit. pretends to act like it's Win 7 but it's not really. i haven't taken it out because i'm too lazy to do it at the moment. i'd have to wipe my HDD, no other way to downgrade i presume.

there's a good reason why they are trying to mimic the older windows because they were just fine.

yes there are the apps, but honestly we have phones that have apps...we don't need apps on a laptop.

EDIT: irony that you're calling me disingenuous when it's MS who actually is :lol: is there anything you wouldn't criticize about them?
 
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MATRIX 2

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#18
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6486180]umm no i'm not. i have Win 10 on my laptop and it's $#@! compared to the Win 7 I had on it previously. it runs worse, gives me 0 extra benefit. pretends to act like it's Win 7 but it's not really. i haven't taken it out because i'm too lazy to do it at the moment. i'd have to wipe my HDD, no other way to downgrade i presume.

there's a good reason why they are trying to mimic the older windows because they were just fine.

yes there are the apps, but honestly we have phones that have apps...we don't need apps on a laptop.

EDIT: irony that you're calling me disingenuous when it's MS who actually is :lol: is there anything you wouldn't criticize about them?[/QUOTE]

You chose to upgrade, you can deal with the consequences of running windows 10 on your hardware. It's like complaining that you upgraded from xp to vista and saying that vista made things worse when the hardware was inadequate/not properly supported with drivers for the upgrade.

And there are plenty of reasons to use windows 10, not just gaming and media creation/editing.
 

Omar

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#19
[QUOTE="MATRIX 2, post: 6486338]You chose to upgrade, you can deal with the consequences of running windows 10 on your hardware. It's like complaining that you upgraded from xp to vista and saying that vista made things worse when the hardware was inadequate/not properly supported with drivers for the upgrade.

And there are plenty of reasons to use windows 10, not just gaming and media creation/editing.[/QUOTE]
that doesn't make any sense. yes i chose to upgrade, that means i can't complain? not sure what you're saying here. if my 4GB laptop is not adequate for an OS, especially when i'm only using it for browsing, all the while my chromebook is 3x faster with way less specs then it's not my problem, it's MS' problem. oh wait, i can prove to you that its MS' problem, the dwindling sales and complaints from other countless users prove this.

When it's not providing me with anything I need that would be worth more RAM, they have failed.

i'm sure there are plenty of worthless reasons. you don't have to convince me. i already have the OS.
 

FinalxxSin

Dedicated Member
Jul 26, 2015
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#21
[QUOTE="K2D, post: 6486407]You can always dial back the upgrade...[/QUOTE]
For now yes, but the question I have to ask myself is if future Window operating systems will contain the same spyware? If that turns out to be the case, then I'll probably need to learn how to use Linux.
 

Major

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Apr 10, 2014
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#22
[QUOTE="FinalxxSin, post: 6486446]...I'll probably need to learn how to use Linux.[/QUOTE]
Possibly more hassle than it's worth but good luck.
 

Omar

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#23
[QUOTE="K2D, post: 6486407]You can always dial back the upgrade...[/QUOTE]
if it's anything like it has been in the past since Windows 7's introduction, they don't let you downgrade, you have to wipe the HDD, thus why i'm being lazy. i was happy with Win 7. thinking of putting XP on it cause the laptop doesn't need games.
[QUOTE="FinalxxSin, post: 6486446]For now yes, but the question I have to ask myself is if future Window operating systems will contain the same spyware? If that turns out to be the case, then I'll probably need to learn how to use Linux.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Major, post: 6486457]Possibly more hassle than it's worth but good luck.[/QUOTE]

Linux is not hard but it's hard if you can't mess around with Windows lol. I would suggest Chrome OS, only way to get it (other than crazy hacks) is through a chromebook, it's the best linux i've seen yet just because it's so stable and almost mimics a Mac OS.
 

Scheller

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May 9, 2006
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#24
[QUOTE="Major, post: 6486457]Possibly more hassle than it's worth but good luck.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Linux is really a hassle to use. My mom is pretty awful at computers and used Linux for a year without issue. With Google, it's really easy to get used to it.

The worst part of moving to Linux is trying to get used to not having access to certain programs and learning the programs you'll now have to use (I hate you GIMP).

[QUOTE="K2D, post: 6486407]You can always dial back the upgrade...[/QUOTE]

I was under the impression that you can't downgrade past 30 days. Not unless you renamed certain files within the first 30 days (or I assume if you've done a fresh install). And we know that the Windows 10 upgrade disables your old key, so you can't just do a fresh install of Windows 7 or 8 and use your old key. People have called Microsoft because they wanted to go back, and Microsoft told them to buy a new key.
 

MATRIX 2

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Jul 29, 2005
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#25
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6486340]that doesn't make any sense. yes i chose to upgrade, that means i can't complain? not sure what you're saying here. if my 4GB laptop is not adequate for an OS, especially when i'm only using it for browsing, all the while my chromebook is 3x faster with way less specs then it's not my problem, it's MS' problem. oh wait, i can prove to you that its MS' problem, the dwindling sales and complaints from other countless users prove this.

When it's not providing me with anything I need that would be worth more RAM, they have failed.

i'm sure there are plenty of worthless reasons. you don't have to convince me. i already have the OS.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying if you use old or improperly supported hardware you will have a poor experience. Something that should be obvious before ever installing a new OS/software. Also upgrading an OS tends to have worse results than doing a clean install.

You can complain all you want, but it seems to me that it is all futile. Since there seems to be a good chance that 10 would not benefit you with your current hardware.

Plenty of other people have had good experiences, and the adoption rate is very good so I don't see your statements holding up.
 

Omar

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#26
futile lol. yeah i guess that's why MS freaked out and made it look and act more like the Windows 7. FUTILE!

umm what is the OS requirement again? wasn't it you that said that the OS was so versatile that it could run on a 1GB machine? pretty sure you had argued this point with me.

here's the official min specs: Processor: 1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster.
RAM: 1 gigabyte (GB) (32-bit) or 2 GB (64-bit)

^I guess they mean it'll "run". but not run good.

so now i have to upgrade my laptop to a new one every 2 years to keep up with times? lol ok. you go ahead and keep up with that status quo.

yes "plenty of people" is convincing that MS isn't having issues. I guess Steam OS didn't give you a hint that people are getting tired of MS' bloated OS.

I will guarantee you these "plenty" people wouldn't care to upgrade to 10 if they weren't forced to do it (unless they are enjoying the free trial). MS is pushing their OS and basically obsoleting the previous Windows on purpose so people keep buying them.

Could you tell me why DX12 is exclusive to 10? I'll give you enough time to respond. if you don't respond, I'll give you the answer: there's absolutely no reason why it should be exclusive to Windows 10, even if they come up with some stupid reason why Windows 7 can't run it, there's no reason why Windows 8.1 couldn't. they're simply forcing people to move on to 10 so they can collect their data and get rich off it.

EDIT: bottom line is that you had started with calling me disingenuous because Win 10 wasn't the answer for every PC out there and when i bring up points why it isn't an answer for everything, you agree with me that it isn't an answer for every computer/user. so case close then?
 
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Major

Forum Elder
Apr 10, 2014
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#27
[QUOTE="Scheller, post: 6486510]I don't think Linux is really a hassle to use. My mom is pretty awful at computers and used Linux for a year without issue. With Google, it's really easy to get used to it.

The worst part of moving to Linux is trying to get used to not having access to certain programs and learning the programs you'll now have to use (I hate you GIMP).[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6486481]Linux is not hard but it's hard if you can't mess around with Windows lol.[/QUOTE]
Sure, it depends on the partiicular user. Some are more adept at tech stuff. I've been a linux user for a few years now and ultimately for me the real reason to use Windows (just installed Win10 on my new machine) over linux is exacly as you say Scheller, not having access to certain programs etc. Linux is limited by the quality of apps too. For a modern computer user they want better performance from those apps and Windows provides that in spades, unless your a significantly savvy coder to twink all those linux OS' to get anywhere near windows standard. In short Windows performs out of the box and linux takes work, not work everyone has time or skill to use well. If you do then great go for it :)

Privacy wise, does your OS really affect what they know about you? They already know!!!


:snicker
 
May 20, 2008
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#28
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6486521]futile lol. yeah i guess that's why MS freaked out and made it look and act more like the Windows 7. FUTILE!

umm what is the OS requirement again? wasn't it you that said that the OS was so versatile that it could run on a 1GB machine? pretty sure you had argued this point with me.

here's the official min specs: Processor: 1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster.
RAM: 1 gigabyte (GB) (32-bit) or 2 GB (64-bit)

^I guess they mean it'll "run". but not run good.

so now i have to upgrade my laptop to a new one every 2 years to keep up with times? lol ok. you go ahead and keep up with that status quo.

yes "plenty of people" is convincing that MS isn't having issues. I guess Steam OS didn't give you a hint that people are getting tired of MS' bloated OS.

I will guarantee you these "plenty" people wouldn't care to upgrade to 10 if they weren't forced to do it (unless they are enjoying the free trial). MS is pushing their OS and basically obsoleting the previous Windows on purpose so people keep buying them.

Could you tell me why DX12 is exclusive to 10? I'll give you enough time to respond. if you don't respond, I'll give you the answer: there's absolutely no reason why it should be exclusive to Windows 10, even if they come up with some stupid reason why Windows 7 can't run it, there's no reason why Windows 8.1 couldn't. they're simply forcing people to move on to 10 so they can collect their data and get rich off it.

EDIT: bottom line is that you had started with calling me disingenuous because Win 10 wasn't the answer for every PC out there and when i bring up points why it isn't an answer for everything, you agree with me that it isn't an answer for every computer/user. so case close then?[/QUOTE]
Maybe you haven't the news that Microsoft is already rich. Even with all their money they can't force anyone to download any version of windows. Stop all the fear mongering.