[QUOTE="Phaded, post: 0]Solid Snake, Big Boss doesn't even compare, why?. Not only will Snake's training be better due to better technology Snake actually defeated Big Boss twice prior to the events of Metal Gear Solid... The Boss maybe but you don't really see much of her so you can't compare.[/quote]
Doesn't even compare...so the soldier that Solid Snake was wholly based upon and modeled after doesn't compare...interesting.
As Wasp Monkey said, Big Boss wasn't exactly in the tip top condition himself. Do you realize how old he must have been when Snake fought him? Well into his sixties...WELL into them.
According to the metel gear wiki, Big Boss started out in 1950...but that's talking about the green berets, which is special forces...and you don't just enlist in special forces. You have to go to an indoc, and then get selected. Let's be generous and assume that he was 20 years old at the time. fast forward to 1999, making him 69 years old, and this is assuming that he was only twenty upon joining special forces. You find me a sixty nine year old man, I don't give a crap what his background was, and pit him toe to toe with a relatively young buck in his late twenties or so. How do you honestly believe it would turn out? Would YOU as a twenty-something male be bragging about beating up a 70 year old man? I don't care if it's Bruce Lee or Hattori Hanzo...the man was d*mn near 70 years old!
[QUOTE="WaspMonkey, post: 0]I think one of the points of the game was the better technology doesn't equal a better soldier. Look at what happened to Meryl after she lost her nanomachines.
The Boss toyed with Big Boss and could have killed him at any moment. As far as I know Big Boss could have been toying with Snake the entire time. Even at the cemetery he took his weapon from him easily enough.[/quote]
Game, set, and match.
[QUOTE="WaspMonkey, post: 0]Big Boss wasn't exactly in the best shape of his life either at that moment. I just have the feeling that Snake was pawn in everything and 'luck' went his way because others wanted it to. i.e. Drebin and his help. Boss and Big Boss made their own luck....until their luck ran out.[/quote]
He was a pawn. His entire career was manipulated by th patriots. That doesn't make him any less of a soldier though, because it was still well within his capacity to fail those missions, and he never did, so good on him.
Doesn't even compare...so the soldier that Solid Snake was wholly based upon and modeled after doesn't compare...interesting.
As Wasp Monkey said, Big Boss wasn't exactly in the tip top condition himself. Do you realize how old he must have been when Snake fought him? Well into his sixties...WELL into them.
According to the metel gear wiki, Big Boss started out in 1950...but that's talking about the green berets, which is special forces...and you don't just enlist in special forces. You have to go to an indoc, and then get selected. Let's be generous and assume that he was 20 years old at the time. fast forward to 1999, making him 69 years old, and this is assuming that he was only twenty upon joining special forces. You find me a sixty nine year old man, I don't give a crap what his background was, and pit him toe to toe with a relatively young buck in his late twenties or so. How do you honestly believe it would turn out? Would YOU as a twenty-something male be bragging about beating up a 70 year old man? I don't care if it's Bruce Lee or Hattori Hanzo...the man was d*mn near 70 years old!
[QUOTE="WaspMonkey, post: 0]I think one of the points of the game was the better technology doesn't equal a better soldier. Look at what happened to Meryl after she lost her nanomachines.
The Boss toyed with Big Boss and could have killed him at any moment. As far as I know Big Boss could have been toying with Snake the entire time. Even at the cemetery he took his weapon from him easily enough.[/quote]
Game, set, and match.
[QUOTE="WaspMonkey, post: 0]Big Boss wasn't exactly in the best shape of his life either at that moment. I just have the feeling that Snake was pawn in everything and 'luck' went his way because others wanted it to. i.e. Drebin and his help. Boss and Big Boss made their own luck....until their luck ran out.[/quote]
He was a pawn. His entire career was manipulated by th patriots. That doesn't make him any less of a soldier though, because it was still well within his capacity to fail those missions, and he never did, so good on him.
I voted Big Boss. Why? Because The Boss was the greatest soldier at the time. Naked Snake totally whooped her *** in that battleground (on my screen atleast). I havent played the original Metal Gear games, so I can't really vote for Snake, as I have no idea how the Snake vs. Big Boss thing went. But, Big Boss did not die.
[QUOTE="Xelios, post: 0]I voted Big Boss. Why? Because The Boss was the greatest soldier at the time. Naked Snake totally whooped her *** in that battleground (on my screen atleast). I havent played the original Metal Gear games, so I can't really vote for Snake, as I have no idea how the Snake vs. Big Boss thing went. But, Big Boss did not die.[/quote]
Hmm...in all fairness, and even though he was old as dirt, dying has nothing to do with being defeated. There is little difference between being beaten within an inch of your life and being beaten to death...in either case, it's a cut and dry overwhelming defeat.
I do think Big Boss is a better soldier than Snake, but the mere fact that he survived doesn't amount to much if you ask me. He was also kept alive through the intervention of others, so that doesn't even reflect upon his own resilience.
Hmm...in all fairness, and even though he was old as dirt, dying has nothing to do with being defeated. There is little difference between being beaten within an inch of your life and being beaten to death...in either case, it's a cut and dry overwhelming defeat.
I do think Big Boss is a better soldier than Snake, but the mere fact that he survived doesn't amount to much if you ask me. He was also kept alive through the intervention of others, so that doesn't even reflect upon his own resilience.
You didn't sound like a **** lord arkon, but none of us can prove any of this it's all just speculation not just what i said. Only kojima or his successor making a 3 way battle cutscene or multiple 1 on 1's could prove who's best and even then people could just choose to disregard them (like some people do with godfather 3). Also I don't think it's totally fair to compare naked snakes and solid's tortures when solid's was on a cd with alot worse cutscene quality. I stick by what I said. Also it would be cool to see raiden save sunny, because on the encyclopedia it says she was held in area 51 lol, but I wouldn't want that as a whole game.
[QUOTE="Lord Arklon, post: 0]Hmm...in all fairness, and even though he was old as dirt, dying has nothing to do with being defeated. There is little difference between being beaten within an inch of your life and being beaten to death...in either case, it's a cut and dry overwhelming defeat.
I do think Big Boss is a better soldier than Snake, but the mere fact that he survived doesn't amount to much if you ask me. He was also kept alive through the intervention of others, so that doesn't even reflect upon his own resilience.[/quote]
Yeah, I see what you mean. Keep in mind, though, that in this game, defeat is basically when you are killed. Or it seems to me that way. Liquid can only be defeated when he is killed. Naked Snake's mission was to defeat The Boss, by killing her. It just seemed to me that way, so it made sense. I see what you mean though.
Personally, I have to say that since I got to experience what Big Boss had to go through, such as killing his mentor, and saving EVA. Again, I haven't played it when Snake has to kill his own father (or brother? clones confuse me...), so that whole emotional impact isn't there for me. I voted for Big Boss because I knew what he went through.
I do think Big Boss is a better soldier than Snake, but the mere fact that he survived doesn't amount to much if you ask me. He was also kept alive through the intervention of others, so that doesn't even reflect upon his own resilience.[/quote]
Yeah, I see what you mean. Keep in mind, though, that in this game, defeat is basically when you are killed. Or it seems to me that way. Liquid can only be defeated when he is killed. Naked Snake's mission was to defeat The Boss, by killing her. It just seemed to me that way, so it made sense. I see what you mean though.
Personally, I have to say that since I got to experience what Big Boss had to go through, such as killing his mentor, and saving EVA. Again, I haven't played it when Snake has to kill his own father (or brother? clones confuse me...), so that whole emotional impact isn't there for me. I voted for Big Boss because I knew what he went through.
Even if he himself says that his status as a legend was to gain "public favor", that doesn't mean that it was. The man WAS a legend, he WAS a hero... he saved the world from an all-terrain tank which can launch ballistic nuclear missiles from ANYWHERE on Earth, he took out the entire OCELOT unit, he stopped a missile from sending a Metal Gear into orbit to fire another nuclear warhead at Earth... this man IS a legend. If it is based on The Boss, the only thing it could possibly be based on is the landing in Normandy and spending several years w/ Jack... that's not REALLY important.
The majority of the people are going to want something that caters to the current storyline, something that has a direct impact on the storyline now. I think a re-make of the original Metal Gear games would be suitable for the next MGS game. Seeing that in PS3 graphics would be amazing... and it would be very cinematically captivating.
The majority of the people are going to want something that caters to the current storyline, something that has a direct impact on the storyline now. I think a re-make of the original Metal Gear games would be suitable for the next MGS game. Seeing that in PS3 graphics would be amazing... and it would be very cinematically captivating.
Solid Snake. I have a lot of respect for what the Boss and Big Boss did and went through in their lives, but Snake did things that should have been impossible or gotten him killed alot. Take the fight against the tank in MGS1. According to Otacon in 4, that shouldn't have been possible. Snake should have been toast there. And yes, he took down alot of Metal Gears too.
As for the CQC issue, Snake refused to use the techniques for quite awhile. He called them "the techniques learned from a traitor" and he wouldn't use them. It was only after they became commonly tought to soldiers that he started using them himself again. That's why Liquid was better at them, cause he'd practiced them more and more regularly. But even still, Snake beat Liquid.
As for the CQC issue, Snake refused to use the techniques for quite awhile. He called them "the techniques learned from a traitor" and he wouldn't use them. It was only after they became commonly tought to soldiers that he started using them himself again. That's why Liquid was better at them, cause he'd practiced them more and more regularly. But even still, Snake beat Liquid.
The greatest warrior was The Boss period. Now again that doesn't equate to her or big boss beating snake easily. What Snake had over them was bigger grit, smarter tactics, and more heart. But as warriors they were both better.
One thing you must remember is that out of liquid, solidus, the boss, and big boss, snake was the most defective piece of the puzzle. Remember
at the end of MGS1 Ocelot explained that the that Solid Snake had the weaker genes of him and liquid.
Basically he's like clint eastwood in unforgiven, not the greatest at anything, but enough grit and heart to take on anyone when pushed.
With this in mind i may change my answer to Solid Snake.
One thing you must remember is that out of liquid, solidus, the boss, and big boss, snake was the most defective piece of the puzzle. Remember
at the end of MGS1 Ocelot explained that the that Solid Snake had the weaker genes of him and liquid.
Basically he's like clint eastwood in unforgiven, not the greatest at anything, but enough grit and heart to take on anyone when pushed.
With this in mind i may change my answer to Solid Snake.
[QUOTE="Sony Pizza, post: 0]Even if he himself says that his status as a legend was to gain "public favor", that doesn't mean that it was. [/quote]
Um...you're damn right it does. If he himself was behind the scenes and witnessed the propaganda and hyperbole...he himself was the man that experienced what he experienced and can therefore decipher truth from legend, then I'd say it's probably accurate what he said.
[QUOTE="Sony Pizza, post: 0]The man WAS a legend, he WAS a hero... he saved the world from an all-terrain tank which can launch ballistic nuclear missiles from ANYWHERE on Earth, he took out the entire OCELOT unit, he stopped a missile from sending a Metal Gear into orbit to fire another nuclear warhead at Earth... this man IS a legend.[/quote]
And I'm not disputing that. You seem to forget that he is my favorite of all the Bosses/Snakes. However, as I said earlier, he would know better than you and I what the hyperbole and propaganda was, who are you to say that it's inaccurate?
Let's not forget that The Boss was a pivotal catalyst in winning World War II for the allies. Let's also not forget that EVA said it herself in the epilogue....The Boss' final mission would forever taint her reputation, and her legacy was to be reviled as a traitorous, heartless dog throughout history, even though the reality was completely different.
Again, I'm not disputing that Big Boss is a legend. He damn sure is. However, if the man himself, who helped found the you know what for crying out loud and was behind the scenes for al of the propaganda and string-pulling, I think it's probably a good idea to take his word for it in spite of our beliefs.
[QUOTE="Sony Pizza, post: 0]If it is based on The Boss, the only thing it could possibly be based on is the landing in Normandy and spending several years w/ Jack... that's not REALLY important.[/quote]
Well...if you think about it, every loose end in the life of all characters has been tied up...NOTHING in a prequel would be particularly important, as everything has already been resolved, and we know the origins of every major occurrence in the universe.
I agree with you, I think another Big Boss game would rock hard, however, don't try to play it off like he's more important than anyone else, because based upon the way MGS4 concluded, there is nothing else that Kojima could introduce via retcon that would be any more pertinent to the main players.
As a matter of fact, I'd rather see a game about Raiden's and Solidus early relationship, or one all about Frank Jaeger's trials and tribulations. He is the quintessential tragic hero in the whole story IMO.
[QUOTE="CodenameD, post: 0]Ocelot explained that the that Solid Snake had the weaker genes of him and liquid.
Basically he's like clint eastwood in unforgiven, not the greatest at anything, but enough grit and heart to take on anyone when pushed.
With this in mind i may change my answer to Solid Snake.[/quote]
He didn't have the weaker genes, he had the recessive genes. I think the point Kojima was trying to get across with that is that genes and ancestral history doesn't dictate our fate...we as human beings do. Snake overcame ALL the odds, in light of the fact that he had the recessive genes and was intended to be the lesser of the two, he came out on top...of everyone for that matter.
I agree with The Boss being the best, but I doubt Snake's genes have squat to do with it.
Um...you're damn right it does. If he himself was behind the scenes and witnessed the propaganda and hyperbole...he himself was the man that experienced what he experienced and can therefore decipher truth from legend, then I'd say it's probably accurate what he said.
[QUOTE="Sony Pizza, post: 0]The man WAS a legend, he WAS a hero... he saved the world from an all-terrain tank which can launch ballistic nuclear missiles from ANYWHERE on Earth, he took out the entire OCELOT unit, he stopped a missile from sending a Metal Gear into orbit to fire another nuclear warhead at Earth... this man IS a legend.[/quote]
And I'm not disputing that. You seem to forget that he is my favorite of all the Bosses/Snakes. However, as I said earlier, he would know better than you and I what the hyperbole and propaganda was, who are you to say that it's inaccurate?
Let's not forget that The Boss was a pivotal catalyst in winning World War II for the allies. Let's also not forget that EVA said it herself in the epilogue....The Boss' final mission would forever taint her reputation, and her legacy was to be reviled as a traitorous, heartless dog throughout history, even though the reality was completely different.
Again, I'm not disputing that Big Boss is a legend. He damn sure is. However, if the man himself, who helped found the you know what for crying out loud and was behind the scenes for al of the propaganda and string-pulling, I think it's probably a good idea to take his word for it in spite of our beliefs.
[QUOTE="Sony Pizza, post: 0]If it is based on The Boss, the only thing it could possibly be based on is the landing in Normandy and spending several years w/ Jack... that's not REALLY important.[/quote]
Well...if you think about it, every loose end in the life of all characters has been tied up...NOTHING in a prequel would be particularly important, as everything has already been resolved, and we know the origins of every major occurrence in the universe.
I agree with you, I think another Big Boss game would rock hard, however, don't try to play it off like he's more important than anyone else, because based upon the way MGS4 concluded, there is nothing else that Kojima could introduce via retcon that would be any more pertinent to the main players.
As a matter of fact, I'd rather see a game about Raiden's and Solidus early relationship, or one all about Frank Jaeger's trials and tribulations. He is the quintessential tragic hero in the whole story IMO.
[QUOTE="CodenameD, post: 0]Ocelot explained that the that Solid Snake had the weaker genes of him and liquid.
Basically he's like clint eastwood in unforgiven, not the greatest at anything, but enough grit and heart to take on anyone when pushed.
With this in mind i may change my answer to Solid Snake.[/quote]
He didn't have the weaker genes, he had the recessive genes. I think the point Kojima was trying to get across with that is that genes and ancestral history doesn't dictate our fate...we as human beings do. Snake overcame ALL the odds, in light of the fact that he had the recessive genes and was intended to be the lesser of the two, he came out on top...of everyone for that matter.
I agree with The Boss being the best, but I doubt Snake's genes have squat to do with it.
[QUOTE="ChildOfIllusions, post: 0]They all had there trials they had to deal with i would say there all even. If i had to give them all titles it would look like this
The Boss- A true Patriot
Big Boss-A true Hero
Solid Snake-The Legendary Hero[/quote]
I think I'd have to reverse your Big Boss and Solid Snake titles. Big Boss was legendary, Snake whooped his ***... twice!
The Boss- A true Patriot
Big Boss-A true Hero
Solid Snake-The Legendary Hero[/quote]
I think I'd have to reverse your Big Boss and Solid Snake titles. Big Boss was legendary, Snake whooped his ***... twice!
I'm pretty sure that it was mentioned that The Boss wasn't allowed to simply let herself die and that compounded by the fact that she was the type of mentor to strive for her student(s) to surpass her strongly supports that she was not holding back against Naked Snake.
I mean....remember she started using some pyschic shield to deflect your bullets at the end of MGS3, she never had to display such special abilities against Naked Snake before. She clearly wasn't holding back there. Naked Snake got the legitimate victory because she knew he deserved her best then.
I mean....remember she started using some pyschic shield to deflect your bullets at the end of MGS3, she never had to display such special abilities against Naked Snake before. She clearly wasn't holding back there. Naked Snake got the legitimate victory because she knew he deserved her best then.
man... with all this bickering... why don't we let Kojima decide who is #1?
Going by difficulty levels in MGS4:
Solid Normal (Solid Snake/Old Snake)
Big Boss hard (Big Boss)
The Boss Extreme (Boss aka Joy)
So... it would seem Kojima himself acknowledges the fact that "The Boss aka The Joy" is #1.
:snicker
Going by difficulty levels in MGS4:
Solid Normal (Solid Snake/Old Snake)
Big Boss hard (Big Boss)
The Boss Extreme (Boss aka Joy)
So... it would seem Kojima himself acknowledges the fact that "The Boss aka The Joy" is #1.
:snicker
i would say solid snake, but when big boss gave snake that hug and called him a son, and when he saluted the boss's gave b4 he died, proves that he's a true legend that doesn't let his ego come in his way and that he gives credit where it is deserved. other than that i would say snakes next b/c he kicked big boss's *** twice b4 that.
[QUOTE="Mainspring, post: 0]man... with all this bickering... why don't we let Kojima decide who is #1?
Going by difficulty levels in MGS4:
Solid Normal (Solid Snake/Old Snake)
Big Boss hard (Big Boss)
The Boss Extreme (Boss aka Joy)
So... it would seem Kojima himself acknowledges the fact that "The Boss aka The Joy" is #1.
:snicker[/quote]
Haha, that's one way to put it. :lol:
Going by difficulty levels in MGS4:
Solid Normal (Solid Snake/Old Snake)
Big Boss hard (Big Boss)
The Boss Extreme (Boss aka Joy)
So... it would seem Kojima himself acknowledges the fact that "The Boss aka The Joy" is #1.
:snicker[/quote]
Haha, that's one way to put it. :lol:
[QUOTE="Lord Arklon, post: 0]Doesn't even compare...so the soldier that Solid Snake was wholly based upon and modeled after doesn't compare...interesting.
As Wasp Monkey said, Big Boss wasn't exactly in the tip top condition himself. Do you realize how old he must have been when Snake fought him? Well into his sixties...WELL into them.
According to the metel gear wiki, Big Boss started out in 1950...but that's talking about the green berets, which is special forces...and you don't just enlist in special forces. You have to go to an indoc, and then get selected. Let's be generous and assume that he was 20 years old at the time. fast forward to 1999, making him 69 years old, and this is assuming that he was only twenty upon joining special forces. You find me a sixty nine year old man, I don't give a crap what his background was, and pit him toe to toe with a relatively young buck in his late twenties or so. How do you honestly believe it would turn out? Would YOU as a twenty-something male be bragging about beating up a 70 year old man? I don't care if it's Bruce Lee or Hattori Hanzo...the man was d*mn near 70 years old!
Game, set, and match.
He was a pawn. His entire career was manipulated by th patriots. That doesn't make him any less of a soldier though, because it was still well within his capacity to fail those missions, and he never did, so good on him.[/quote]
Um.. considering the new Metal Gear Solid 4 Database calls Solid Snake... oh what was it now, oh yeah "The Greatest Living Soldier in History". That's Game, set and match. This is also said by Solidus about the cover up "Solid Snake Project" that put kids into simulations of the Shadow Moses incident in order to turn them into Snake, this is what happened to Raiden. So yes Solid Snake is the best, from Hideo's words himself. Solid Snake may have been modelled on Big Boss but he has surpassed him in his lifetime.
As Wasp Monkey said, Big Boss wasn't exactly in the tip top condition himself. Do you realize how old he must have been when Snake fought him? Well into his sixties...WELL into them.
According to the metel gear wiki, Big Boss started out in 1950...but that's talking about the green berets, which is special forces...and you don't just enlist in special forces. You have to go to an indoc, and then get selected. Let's be generous and assume that he was 20 years old at the time. fast forward to 1999, making him 69 years old, and this is assuming that he was only twenty upon joining special forces. You find me a sixty nine year old man, I don't give a crap what his background was, and pit him toe to toe with a relatively young buck in his late twenties or so. How do you honestly believe it would turn out? Would YOU as a twenty-something male be bragging about beating up a 70 year old man? I don't care if it's Bruce Lee or Hattori Hanzo...the man was d*mn near 70 years old!
Game, set, and match.
He was a pawn. His entire career was manipulated by th patriots. That doesn't make him any less of a soldier though, because it was still well within his capacity to fail those missions, and he never did, so good on him.[/quote]
Um.. considering the new Metal Gear Solid 4 Database calls Solid Snake... oh what was it now, oh yeah "The Greatest Living Soldier in History". That's Game, set and match. This is also said by Solidus about the cover up "Solid Snake Project" that put kids into simulations of the Shadow Moses incident in order to turn them into Snake, this is what happened to Raiden. So yes Solid Snake is the best, from Hideo's words himself. Solid Snake may have been modelled on Big Boss but he has surpassed him in his lifetime.
