Protests in Madison WI

DayWalker

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May 9, 2006
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#1
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelo...closed-after-teachers-call-in-sick-in-protest

Schools are closed in Madison, Wisconsin today after an estimated 1,000 teachers called in sick to protest Gov. Scott Walker's bid to limit unions' right to collective bargaining. Walker's proposal would limit unions' collective bargaining power to salary and force government workers to pay more for their benefits and pensions.

Madison Teachers Inc. union director John Matthews told the Wisconsin State Journal that the sickout is the first coordinated absence in Madison schools in 16 years. Teachers are asked to attend protests at the state capitol instead of going to school. Madison superintendent Dan Nerad told Channel 3000 that teachers who were absent will have to prove they were sick.

Nearly 800 Madison East High School students walked out of class yesterday to attend a rally attended by thousands against the proposal, the State Journal reported.

A Milwaukee district spokesman told local station TMJ4 there were no problems with absences in the city. It's still unclear if the governor's proposal will pass.
Proud to be a Badger. 30k people outside of the capital for 2 consecutive days.
The school children even came out to stand with their teachers.

I am all for cutting spending... but in my opinion, education should never be defunded.

This what happens when a Tea Bagger goes to far.
 
Oct 23, 2007
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#2
[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440912]Proud to be a Badger. 30k people outside of the capital for 2 consecutive days.
The school children even came out to stand with their teachers.

I am all for cutting spending... but in my opinion, education should never be defunded.

This what happens when a Tea Bagger goes to far.[/QUOTE]

How is this guy proposing to "defund" education? From what I can tell he is trying to change the collective bargaining powers to remove benefits and pensions.

Do you think that the teachers shouldn't also feel the pain with everyone else during this time of economic hardship and excessive spending? What would you suggest the guy do instead? Talking specifics here.
 

btbam

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Jan 28, 2011
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#3
Before you demonize the lawmakers, look at the proposed bill. Its not unreasonable.

Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent. The changes would save the state $30 million by June 30 and $300 million over the next two years to address a $3.6 billion budget shortfall.

Unions could still represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.

In exchange for bearing more costs and losing bargaining leverage, public employees were promised no furloughs or layoffs. Walker has threatened to order layoffs of up to 6,000 state workers if the measure does not pass.
They are facing a serious budget crisis and it looks like up to 6,000 public employees could be out of a job.
 

Firefox

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#4
As a Canadian.. I don't see anything wrong with this protest why on earth would you ask them to remove their collective bargaining power? Out of all the things you could do because of these economic conditions you choose this? Go pick on someone else. Again I am not well versed in American politics so I am judging by face value.

This is something that is a part of our constitution not sure about America.

I should read this later (putting it here as a reminder).. would give me an insight into the differences.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...-ak6Y8&sig=AHIEtbTuTfJMs7OmQwcV8gha3f61HjiFEQ
 
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#5
[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440912]http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelo...closed-after-teachers-call-in-sick-in-protest



Proud to be a Badger. 30k people outside of the capital for 2 consecutive days.
The school children even came out to stand with their teachers.

I am all for cutting spending... but in my opinion, education should never be defunded.

This what happens when a Tea Bagger goes to far.[/QUOTE]

Teachers are probably some of the most important people in our country and at the same time the most underpaid I have ever met for the level of education they need in order to do their job. I say pay them more. They've needed a raise since...sh*t, FOREVER. Main reason I didn't pursue teaching as a career was due to the dismal pay in the end.

Education is the last place they need to start cutting. Try national defense first, they are by far overpaid( I know from first hand experience). Officers up to General Officers, some of the most overpaid people I have seen for the level of work they do. The amount of Fraud, Waste and abuse I have seen them get away with is astounding.
Me-"Sir, you really need completely new office furniture this year? We got some last year."

Colonel D-Bag: "If we don't spend it, we don't get it next year."

What an a**hole.
 

DayWalker

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#6
In an interview with the Associated Press, Scott Walker proposed stripping nearly all government workers of their collective bargaining rights. And as a warning shot across the bow, he told Wisconsin reporters Friday that he's alerted the National Guard ahead of any unrest, or in the event that state services are interrupted. Under his plan, which he'll include in his forthcoming budget proposal, most state workers would no longer be able to negotiate for better pensions or health benefits or anything other than higher salaries, which couldn't rise at a quicker pace than the Consumer Price Index.

According to the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer "The proposal would effectively remove unions' right to negotiate in any meaningful way. Local law enforcement and fire employees, as well as state troopers and inspectors would be exempt."

He also says this plan is non-negotiable -- as in, he's cut off negotiations with prison guards, teachers and other state workers.
dudes got some nerve...



the Badger nation descends upon you!!! :lol:

apparently the protests in milwaukee is even larger... the governors home street has been closed and his family has fled...
 
Oct 23, 2007
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#7
[QUOTE="unicron7, post: 5440942]Teachers are probably some of the most important people in our country and at the same time the most underpaid I have ever met for the level of education they need in order to do their job. I say pay them more. They've needed a raise since...sh*t, FOREVER. Main reason I didn't pursue teaching as a career was due to the dismal pay in the end.[/QUOTE]

So, $47K for working 7-8 months out of the year is under paid? That's the nation wide average for K-12.

[QUOTE="unicron7, post: 5440942]Education is the last place they need to start cutting. Try national defense first, they are by far overpaid( I know from first hand experience). Officers up to General Officers, some of the most overpaid people I have seen for the level of work they do. The amount of Fraud, Waste and abuse I have seen them get away with is astounding.[/QUOTE]

The governor of Wisconsin is going to have a hard time cutting national defense.

[QUOTE="unicron7, post: 5440942]Me-"Sir, you really need completely new office furniture this year? We got some last year."

Colonel D-Bag: "If we don't spend it, we don't get it next year."

What an a**hole.[/QUOTE]

You obviously have little to no understanding how bases get allotted money and why that exact practice is so common in EVERY branch of the government. I agree that it's EXTREMELY wasteful, but the problem isn't with the general repaving the same damn road every year, the problem is what happens if he DOESN'T spend every dime and why that type of system is still in place.

[QUOTE="Firefox, post: 5440938]As a Canadian.. I don't see anything wrong with this protest why on earth would you ask them to remove their collective bargaining power? Out of all the things you could do because of these economic conditions you choose this? Go pick on someone else. Again I am not well versed in American politics so I am judging by face value.[/QUOTE]

There are two sides to every coin.

I agree, asking them to forfeit SOME of their collective bargaining power seems to be a bold move, and I am not entirely sure of the situation in Wisconsin, but in my opinion these corrupt and greedy unions that have been destroying industry for some 80+ years kind of have it coming. It's very difficult to be fair to everyone involved when you are trying to trim a state budget, and you are trying to marginally increase something like the cost of a pension plan (8% isn't much), and the union won't budge an inch. It honestly seems like unions would rather go down with the ship in many occasions rather than make any sort of concession. They would rather a business or state cut EVERY other form of state spending before they touch anything even remotely related to union member salary or benefits.
 
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btbam

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#8
[QUOTE="unicron7, post: 5440942]Teachers are probably some of the most important people in our country and at the same time the most underpaid I have ever met for the level of education they need in order to do their job. I say pay them more. They've needed a raise since...sh*t, FOREVER. Main reason I didn't pursue teaching as a career was due to the dismal pay in the end.

Education is the last place they need to start cutting. Try national defense first, they are by far overpaid( I know from first hand experience). Officers up to General Officers, some of the most overpaid people I have seen for the level of work they do. The amount of Fraud, Waste and abuse I have seen them get away with is astounding.
Me-"Sir, you really need completely new office furniture this year? We got some last year."

Colonel D-Bag: "If we don't spend it, we don't get it next year."

What an a**hole.[/QUOTE]

Considering this is a Wisconsin issue, they won't be cutting Defense spending. And they aren't just cutting teachers, its all public employees, but teachers are affected by it. I agree teachers are underpaid, but drastic times call for drastic measures. I would probably suggest pay freezes on legislators first. I'm not well versed in WI politics so i'm not sure if they have done that or not.
 

Yuuichi

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Oct 25, 2009
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#9
National defense over paid? Got to say that is first time I have ever seen someone say that. It is true if they don't send it they lose it next year but buying new furniture for office is stupid.

I think school districts are really the only work type that NEEDS a union. They are under paid and need more funding. I always find it funny the same people purposing budget cuts are the same ones purposing a raise for themselves. There is always other places they can cut funding from but it either makes them lose money out of thier pocket or is harder to do.

[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5440949]So, $47K for working 7-8 months out of the year is under paid? That's the nation wide average for K-12.
[/QUOTE]

and here it is by state http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
WI-$25k
starting. Takes a few years to get to that 47k mark. Also they work 10-11, and even when they not at school they have grades and such to go over.
 
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DayWalker

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#10
[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5440949]So, $47K for working 7-8 months out of the year is under paid? That's the nation wide average for K-12. [/QUOTE]

link?
and you were only in school for 7 months of the year? explains a lot... ;)
 

Firefox

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Jan 7, 2006
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#11
I see you all don't mind the erosion of fundamental rights... can't change the minds of someone who thinks what is being done is right.

Then again it's your country. Well I have to go to sleep, I expect about 3 pages of arguments when I wake up.. :lol:

Link
 
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Oct 23, 2007
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#12
[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440957]link?
and you were only in school for 7 months of the year? explains a lot... ;)[/QUOTE]

Google.

Yeah, how did they make me so much smarter than you in so much less time? I don't know, must be these Texas schools! ;)
 

DayWalker

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[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5440964]Google.

Yeah, how did they make me so much smarter than you in so much less time? I don't know, must be these Texas schools! ;)[/QUOTE]

:lol:

texas doesn't believe in schools... well that not true... they don't believe in facts...

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary

the google suggests you are wrong... as does Yuuichi's link...

my best friend is a teacher... he's under paid
as is my mother, although she's done it for so long she makes quite a bit now....
 
Oct 23, 2007
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[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440970]texas doesn't believe in schools... well that not true... they don't believe in facts...[/quote]

I guess schools can't teach clever can they? ;)

[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440970]http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary

the google suggests you are wrong... as does Yuuichi's link...[/quote]

Reading comprehension my friend.... I said "national average", and indeed it IS the national average or at least very close to it.

[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440970]my best friend is a teacher... he's under paid
as is my mother, although she's done it for so long she makes quite a bit now....[/QUOTE]

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
 

DayWalker

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#15
[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5440975]
Reading comprehension my friend.... I said "national average", and indeed it IS the national average or at least very close to it.
[/QUOTE]

not a national bill tho is it... soooooo your point is?
 
Oct 23, 2007
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#16
[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440980]not a national bill tho is it... soooooo your point is?[/QUOTE]

My point? I already knew the average national salary, I didn't care to look up the state because it's not much lower than the national average (if you actually LOOKED at his link you will see the average salary in Wisconsin $46K), and you guys have a reading comprehension problem.... the simple fact that I had to explain this is a prime example of third part of "my point". ;)

[QUOTE="Yuuichi, post: 5440954]http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
WI-$25k
starting. Takes a few years to get to that 47k mark. Also they work 10-11, and even when they not at school they have grades and such to go over.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's all fine and dandy, I never referred to starting salary though, I said "average", and I was right on the mark according to your link.

As far as how many hours they work, they aren't alone. All sorts of people in all sorts of other jobs work as many or more hours, that's just part of being in the work force. A lot of small business owners end up working 15 hour days week in and out just to survive, but you know why they do it? Because they are passionate about what they do, they want to. So, I don't want to hear teachers complain about working 10 hour days.... if they don't like the hours go do something else.
 
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DayWalker

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[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5440985]My point? I already knew the average national salary, I didn't care to look up the state because it's not much lower than the national average (if you actually LOOKED at his link you will see the average salary in Wisconsin $46K), and you guys have a reading comprehension problem.... the simple fact that I had to explain this is a prime example of third part of "my point". ;)[/QUOTE]

and you're arguing that a 46k AVERAGE... is high?

Medians are more appropriate anyways...and had you looked at my link... none of those numbers are as high as your "national average"
 
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Oct 23, 2007
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[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440990]and you're arguing that a 46k AVERAGE... is high?[/QUOTE]

When did I ever say it was high? What do YOU think they should be making?
 

btbam

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#19
[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440990]and you're arguing that a 46k AVERAGE... is high?[/QUOTE]

Considering the national average for families (2 working parents) is about 65k that is pretty high. Now i will say teachers have a higher cost of living, becuase they will probably try to teach in nice districts and nice districts will have high cost of living; however they still have comparable pay to a majority of americans.
 

DayWalker

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[QUOTE="btbam, post: 5440996]Considering the national average for families (2 working parents) is about 65k that is pretty high. Now i will say teachers have a higher cost of living, becuase they will probably try to teach in nice districts and nice districts will have high cost of living; however they still have comparable pay to a majority of americans.[/QUOTE]

65k between 2 people... isn't something to "ooo" and "ahhh" at either.
although it does highlight the growing class gap in the country.

personally- i'd rather tax the top 2% and extra 3% (tax percentage jargon) than try to limit salary growth of a pitiful middle class employee
 
Oct 23, 2007
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[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5440999]65k between 2 people... isn't something to "ooo" and "ahhh" at either.
although it does highlight the growing class gap in the country.

personally- i'd rather tax the top 2% and extra 3% (tax percentage jargon) than try to limit salary growth of a pitiful middle class employee[/QUOTE]

Well, a family with two teachers isn't making $65K on average, they are making just under $100K on average.

And, I think the quoted text specifically said they weren't limiting salary, rather they were focusing on benefits. It's possible I misinterpreted something though, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
 

DayWalker

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[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5441002]Well, a family with two teachers isn't making $65K on average, they are making just under $100K on average.[/QUOTE]

well if we use your fuzzy number.

if we use my numbers:
assume the average career is 30 years
for the first 15 years they're belwo the median... for the last 15 years they are above...

not a lot of money... especially if you throw kids, college and mortgage into the mix. Fortunately they get a pretty sexy pension... well unless this governor gets his way





edit
========
WI's largest teachers union, over 98k, just called on all its members to join the rallies... school districts all over the state are closing down.

Hornets nest
 
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Oct 23, 2007
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[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441008]well if we use your fuzzy number.[/QUOTE]

:snicker Fuzzy number? If the average teacher in Wisconsin is making just under $47K, double that and it's $94K. Much closer to $100K than $65K is it not?

[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441008] if we use my numbers:[/QUOTE]

Now, why would we want to do that?

[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441008]assume the average career is 30 years
for the first 15 years they're belwo the median... for the last 15 years they are above...[/QUOTE]

How does that compare to every other job out there? I think your numbers are actually a little off, maybe even "fuzzy", at least according to my numbers.

[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441008]not a lot of money... especially if you throw kids, college and mortgage into the mix. Fortunately they get a pretty sexy pension... well unless this governor gets his way[/QUOTE]

Really? Is he going to scrap it? What article have you been reading Mr. drama queen?!


[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441008]WI's largest teachers union, over 98k, just called on all its members to join the rallies... school districts all over the state are closing down.

Hornets nest[/QUOTE]


Something else that Gov needs to throw in is making it easier for crappy teachers to be fired. As it is, crappy teachers just continue being crappy teachers.... YAY UNIONS!

Seems like a typical union move, try to keep every penny you can, shut down the everything you can, bring things to a halt, and force the cuts to go somewhere else. Hell, just cut road funding, as long as it doesn't come out of THEIR pocket.... it's going to be funny when the governor caves and just fires 6,000 people since the union wasn't willing to increase the cost of the pension plan by 8%.

DW, maybe he should just cut the states national defense spending.... wouldn't you agree?

[video=youtube;ca9GuwuOVZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9GuwuOVZc[/video]

^^ That's what I think about some of the comments in this thread.... the top of the list (paraphrasing of course) "Wisconsin should cut national defense spending..."
 
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DayWalker

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#26
[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5441019]





Something else that Gov needs to throw in is making it easier for crappy teachers to be fired. As it is, crappy teachers just continue being crappy teachers.... YAY UNIONS!

Seems like a typical union move, try to keep every penny you can, shut down the everything you can, bring things to a halt, and force the cuts to go somewhere else. Hell, just cut road funding, as long as it doesn't come out of THEIR pocket.... it's going to be funny when the governor caves and just fires 6,000 people since the union wasn't willing to increase the cost of the pension plan by 8%.

DW, maybe he should just cut the states national defense spending.... wouldn't you agree?
[/QUOTE]

I support teachers just like I support the military.

Yeah there are some douche bags in there... and you'd love to ID them and throw them out... but I respect their overall service and wish them well rewarded....

the troops are underpaid too btw... I BET NOBDOY ARGUES WITH ME ABOUT THAT. :lol:
 

Vulgotha

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Jan 6, 2007
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#27
Personally I don't find our public education system much to be proud of. It'd be different if it were leading the world or something, but it isn't so far as I know.
 
Oct 23, 2007
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[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441023]I support teachers just like I support the military.

Yeah there are some douche bags in there... and you'd love to ID them and throw them out... but I respect their overall service and wish them well rewarded....

the troops are underpaid too btw... I BET NOBDOY ARGUES WITH ME ABOUT THAT. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Actually, I think there are plenty of people in the military that are overpaid, but most people don't argue about the military because they are dying for us in remote **** holes, hard to say they are over paid. However, there is a crap load of waste in the DOD, and it needs to be trimmed out.

I respect the hell out of teachers as well, and they SHOULD be rewarded, and we should try to do everything we can to keep from cutting education budgets, I agree with all of that.

However, not one person in this thread has mentioned any other alternative that was actually valid (see: cutting national defense). What should the guy do to help balance the budget in Wi that he isn't already doing? I am all for it, just tell me what he ISN'T doing that he SHOULD BE doing.
 

DayWalker

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[QUOTE="weskurtz81, post: 5441028]Actually, I think there are plenty of people in the military that are overpaid, but most people don't argue about the military because they are dying for us in remote **** holes, hard to say they are over paid. However, there is a crap load of waste in the DOD, and it needs to be trimmed out.
aren't the majority of US military personnel non-combat?
and the its precisely the troops that are dying that are underpaid.

there were more "private contractors" in iraq than troops... and they a heckuva alot more than the avergae GI.
Ah- and the money comes from the US government.

I respect the hell out of teachers as well, and they SHOULD be rewarded, and we should try to do everything we can to keep from cutting education budgets, I agree with all of that.
took ya long enough to come out and say it

However, not one person in this thread has mentioned any other alternative that was actually valid (see: cutting national defense). What should the guy do to help balance the budget in Wi that he isn't already doing? I am all for it, just tell me what he ISN'T doing that he SHOULD BE doing.
I am all for phasing out their pension and increasing their base salary.

Its the same issue that SS security is facing... people live for a long time... a long long time... retire when you're 55 live till you're 100... simple math.

pay them while they work, put them in charge of their retirement.
 
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#30
[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441038]aren't the majority of US military personnel non-combat?
and the its precisely the troops that are dying that are underpaid.[/quote]

I am not sure of the exact numbers. There are plenty of civilians in the DOD and federal govt that are overpaid though.

[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441038]there were more "private contractors" in iraq than troops... and they a heckuva alot more than the avergae GI.[/quote]

By private contractor, you are referring to?

Ah- and the money comes from the US government.

[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441038]took ya long enough to come out and say it[/quote]

I was never asked nor was it the topic of conversation. We were referring to a state that is billions of dollars in the red. Never made any disparaging comments about teachers just that EVERYONE is going to feel the pain.


[QUOTE="DayWalker, post: 5441038]I am all for phasing out their pension and increasing their base salary.

Its the same issue that SS security is facing... people live for a long time... a long long time... retire when you're 55 live till you're 100... simple math.

pay them while they work, put them in charge of their retirement.[/QUOTE]

There are a bunch of different avenues we could take for retirement, most of which probably offer a better return than SS.