I was referring to the reportedly negative experiences of LM on PCs. Sony says they've been working on it for 2 years so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
I'm not. I'm saying it might be producing more heat per mm². Anyway.... can't tell for sure until real world tests are done.
Again, I wasn't talking about the GPU power but the cooling solution. Bigger/more aggressive/more expensive? solution (PS5) vs. smaller/more efficient one (XSX). You can't just ignore the fact that space is a big factor, probably the biggest of them all when talking about cooling, and the XSX has overcome the challenge in a more efficient way. They could've also made the XSX bigger and use liquid metal, but it looks like they didn't need to. If both get the job done, I'd absolutely chose the 2nd, but it doesn't mean the first isn't good too.
Said otherwise, I'm sure Sony never wanted to make such a massive console. They had to... and cooling was the deciding factor.
I'm not. I'm saying it might be producing more heat per mm². Anyway.... can't tell for sure until real world tests are done.
Again, I wasn't talking about the GPU power but the cooling solution. Bigger/more aggressive/more expensive? solution (PS5) vs. smaller/more efficient one (XSX). You can't just ignore the fact that space is a big factor, probably the biggest of them all when talking about cooling, and the XSX has overcome the challenge in a more efficient way. They could've also made the XSX bigger and use liquid metal, but it looks like they didn't need to. If both get the job done, I'd absolutely chose the 2nd, but it doesn't mean the first isn't good too.
Said otherwise, I'm sure Sony never wanted to make such a massive console. They had to... and cooling was the deciding factor.
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LM is only bad if it leaks onto the caps around the die, or if it eats through aluminium on a heatsink. Otherwise, there's no real downside (both of these are easy to avoid). At worst, it dries out and performs about on par with paste - to this end, it looks like Sony are insulating the area around the die to keep air out.
If Sony use an Indium[EDIT: nickel, not indium] , or copper based heatsink (not too sure since one side was silver, but definitely got a lot of copper present) there's also no issue since gallium does not eat into nickel much and only creates an alloy with copper. The resulting alloy does not lose any conductivity.
Even in that regard, i still wouldn't consider the analogy sound. Sony's is big, but MS's is hardly small, it's just less big. I can't recall off the top of my head but it was like half the volume of the case or something?
EDIT: Went and checked in your teardown vs. thread, and yup, MS use an almighty vapor chamber. What you would normally see (at least on a PC GPU with 250W+ TDP) is a vapor chamber you could sorta fit in your hand (my hand at least, individual results obvs. vary).
If Sony use an Indium[EDIT: nickel, not indium] , or copper based heatsink (not too sure since one side was silver, but definitely got a lot of copper present) there's also no issue since gallium does not eat into nickel much and only creates an alloy with copper. The resulting alloy does not lose any conductivity.
Even in that regard, i still wouldn't consider the analogy sound. Sony's is big, but MS's is hardly small, it's just less big. I can't recall off the top of my head but it was like half the volume of the case or something?
EDIT: Went and checked in your teardown vs. thread, and yup, MS use an almighty vapor chamber. What you would normally see (at least on a PC GPU with 250W+ TDP) is a vapor chamber you could sorta fit in your hand (my hand at least, individual results obvs. vary).
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Agreed. Still, I'm cautious about it for the long run.
In volume, Series X is ~35% smaller than PS5 https://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news/ps5-size-comparison-dimensions-weight-ps4-xbox-series-x-2296829
In volume, Series X is ~35% smaller than PS5 https://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news/ps5-size-comparison-dimensions-weight-ps4-xbox-series-x-2296829
Oberon is just the code name for PS5 GPU.It has the exact same features as any other,bar DX support obviously....It was running lower at early stages,but that doesnt mean that its was the final product,or that it is Oced 
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/amd-oberon.g936
And the same for lockhart (that is pretty much the same GPU X has)
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/amd-lockhart.g970
Btw i think that they made a mistake in Open Cl version.It should be 2.1 and not 1.2.They state the same for both consoles.
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/amd-oberon.g936
And the same for lockhart (that is pretty much the same GPU X has)
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/amd-lockhart.g970
Btw i think that they made a mistake in Open Cl version.It should be 2.1 and not 1.2.They state the same for both consoles.
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You're saying the same thing. They increased the clocks aggressively to the point they needed a massive cooling solution. It all matches. Looks like PS fans are uncomfortable with the word "overclocking"... name it as you wish.. but the fact remains on that the thing is clocked so high that needed the most aggressive cooling ever seen on consoles (by a long shot) in order to keep it stable/safe.
By not supporting DX (12 Ultimate), I wonder how they will make up for the lack of Mesh Shader, VRR and Sampler Feedback.
By not supporting DX (12 Ultimate), I wonder how they will make up for the lack of Mesh Shader, VRR and Sampler Feedback.
Dude OC means OUT os specs....I'm not sure why are you trying so hard,to make that the case.As for DX,do you really thing that DX is the only way to make things work?Apparently its not....You already heard what DF said about the PS5.Now lets wait and see what these surprises will be...
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Two4DaMoney
DX is just an API. I think i've said as much before. It's for programmers and engineers. VRR, Mesh shaders etc. as classified under DX are techniques that use the hardware under them -> You'll often see GPU's with a given feature level support.
Sony offer two API's - a low level API (GNM), and a high level DX-like API (GNMX). GNMX functions in a similar manner to DX, in that a programmer can call a function, and get a result. GNM allows the programmer to create their own functions, if they so desire.
A GPU just accelerates math. In a high level API, someone else is defining how you use the hardware. With a low level API, you decide how your math is accelerated. For example, you might want to leverage the ability for Turing cores to do matrix multiplication for something other than image reconstruction, that's entirely up to you.
EDIT: If you want more reading, Crytek have been notorious as of late for their hardware agnostic Raytracing. Additionally, Nanite is Epic's spin on infinite detail geometry, you can look at a bunch of what they are doing with the next UE.
Also, still curious why you are really desperate for this narrative?
Sony offer two API's - a low level API (GNM), and a high level DX-like API (GNMX). GNMX functions in a similar manner to DX, in that a programmer can call a function, and get a result. GNM allows the programmer to create their own functions, if they so desire.
A GPU just accelerates math. In a high level API, someone else is defining how you use the hardware. With a low level API, you decide how your math is accelerated. For example, you might want to leverage the ability for Turing cores to do matrix multiplication for something other than image reconstruction, that's entirely up to you.
EDIT: If you want more reading, Crytek have been notorious as of late for their hardware agnostic Raytracing. Additionally, Nanite is Epic's spin on infinite detail geometry, you can look at a bunch of what they are doing with the next UE.
Also, still curious why you are really desperate for this narrative?
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Aqua is one of those xbox guys on the "PS5 is really 9TF RDNA 1.5" train.
Edit:Boom. Nailed it. See his post below.
Edit:Boom. Nailed it. See his post below.
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arfi-gorgona-O
Not at all. It's just that it's something that got leaked back in 2019 and reinforces the belief that this wasn't what Sony was initially aiming at. Word is that they got pushed by the early 12TFlop announcement on the XSX. 9TFlop vs 12TFlop is probably a figure they wouldn't like to sell.
They're now sitting at "variable" 10.3 TFlops... which leads to think it should be in the 9s when the APU is being stressed on both CPU and GPU as thermal aren't the only constraint but also power. Cerny suggested a 10% drop in his briefing. Unprecedent big cooling also feeds that theory.
I see I didn't have that discussion over here, probably that's why it might seem out of context. Bottom-line is... this tear down is very revealing for those following the leaks and "conspiracy" theories since 2019, which ended up being true, or so it seems. Not that I'm criticizing it. It is what it is.
They're now sitting at "variable" 10.3 TFlops... which leads to think it should be in the 9s when the APU is being stressed on both CPU and GPU as thermal aren't the only constraint but also power. Cerny suggested a 10% drop in his briefing. Unprecedent big cooling also feeds that theory.
I see I didn't have that discussion over here, probably that's why it might seem out of context. Bottom-line is... this tear down is very revealing for those following the leaks and "conspiracy" theories since 2019, which ended up being true, or so it seems. Not that I'm criticizing it. It is what it is.
So the console was redesigned from the ground up within a year? It seems like you just really want the console to be defective in some (or every) way (for what reason, i have no clue).
I notice when people of a certain inclination quote this they often misquote it grossly. The quote was in reference to the use of AVX instructions. As per Intel's own spec sheet:
This isn't new information about how avx works, this has been known since intel introduced the instruction years back. I notice in other Sony oriented threads (and i think i've brought this up before) you are really critical of everything that's announced, yet MS gets a clean sweep. With the knowledge above, why aren't MS held to the same scrutiny? If you believe they aren't lying to you (as you say) and they are 100% transparent, then the inference here is that MS do not support any sort of AVX instructions, and therefore, ship a weaker CPU -> by default, since AVX instruction can be up to a 2x perf increase.
I notice when people of a certain inclination quote this they often misquote it grossly. The quote was in reference to the use of AVX instructions. As per Intel's own spec sheet:
This isn't new information about how avx works, this has been known since intel introduced the instruction years back. I notice in other Sony oriented threads (and i think i've brought this up before) you are really critical of everything that's announced, yet MS gets a clean sweep. With the knowledge above, why aren't MS held to the same scrutiny? If you believe they aren't lying to you (as you say) and they are 100% transparent, then the inference here is that MS do not support any sort of AVX instructions, and therefore, ship a weaker CPU -> by default, since AVX instruction can be up to a 2x perf increase.
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Two4DaMoney
Yes. It was modified in order to support higher clocks. Call it a revision but that's what happened according to the leaks that are now proven real.
Do you remember PS4? It wasn't supposed to sport 8GB of RAM, only 4GB. They added it down the road as Sony learned the (awful) Xbox One was going for it. After the heavy rumors, they later confirmed it and said it was due to "developer's feedback" (sorry, don't eat that) so they did redesign the console. It just wasn't such big of an impact for the overall size and cooling of course. And this happens all the time in the HW industry.
Said this, I'm not saying it has a failure or anything like that. Just trying to understand how they ended up with such "exotic" internals shown and size. I do believe they did play some catch up this time around. Nothing to get mad about. Microsoft's been playing catch up on the software (games) side of things for years now.
Not sure what triggered this response. AMD SmartShift is a reality and it's being applied to the PS5. Am I wrong? This means it will have to lower its clocks when CPU/GPU are being stressed, which I understand would happen with game with heavy visuals, physics, etc. How much? I can't tell... and I don't know if anyone will ever be able to tell... but being below the 10TFlop mark is absolutely a possiblity there.
Do you remember PS4? It wasn't supposed to sport 8GB of RAM, only 4GB. They added it down the road as Sony learned the (awful) Xbox One was going for it. After the heavy rumors, they later confirmed it and said it was due to "developer's feedback" (sorry, don't eat that) so they did redesign the console. It just wasn't such big of an impact for the overall size and cooling of course. And this happens all the time in the HW industry.
Said this, I'm not saying it has a failure or anything like that. Just trying to understand how they ended up with such "exotic" internals shown and size. I do believe they did play some catch up this time around. Nothing to get mad about. Microsoft's been playing catch up on the software (games) side of things for years now.
Not sure what triggered this response. AMD SmartShift is a reality and it's being applied to the PS5. Am I wrong? This means it will have to lower its clocks when CPU/GPU are being stressed, which I understand would happen with game with heavy visuals, physics, etc. How much? I can't tell... and I don't know if anyone will ever be able to tell... but being below the 10TFlop mark is absolutely a possiblity there.
The memory modules occupy the same spots in both variants. It's one of the reasons the console used slower memory modules since they were the ones that were compatible with the IO already present.
At this point it should be clear that i don't particularly agree with any narrative you'd like to put forward, so for your sake, save yourself some time with this.
All evidence to the contrary.
If you have a loose grasp on the things you are posting about, maybe ask instead of trying to pass something you don't understand off as fact. That's not how AMD smart shift works at all. While you're looking that up, you should also look up how AVX256 works are well.
I'm gunna take this as you don't intend to hold MS up to the same level of scrutiny. Just Sony (Again, for whatever weird reason, im unsure).
At this point it should be clear that i don't particularly agree with any narrative you'd like to put forward, so for your sake, save yourself some time with this.
All evidence to the contrary.
If you have a loose grasp on the things you are posting about, maybe ask instead of trying to pass something you don't understand off as fact. That's not how AMD smart shift works at all. While you're looking that up, you should also look up how AVX256 works are well.
I'm gunna take this as you don't intend to hold MS up to the same level of scrutiny. Just Sony (Again, for whatever weird reason, im unsure).
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Likes:
Two4DaMoney
What's your point? This time they needed more TFLop count (higher clocks) and they had to make big adjustments to the cooling system accordingly. Why is this so hard to digest? Almost looks as if it was somehow offensive for you.
"For my sake?" Man... I don't need you to agree with me. The fact that you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. I've made my point already, and provided what I consider enough clues that lead me to believe it.
How about you explain how that statement is wrong instead of assuming one plain ignores the subject? I'm just focusing on the "worst case scenario" Cerny talked about. Isn't it true that PS5 will need to lower clocks/power delivering in that situation? That's where SmartShift ALSO comes to play.
I respect your opinions. Respect mine.
Same guy. 🤔
"For my sake?" Man... I don't need you to agree with me. The fact that you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. I've made my point already, and provided what I consider enough clues that lead me to believe it.
How about you explain how that statement is wrong instead of assuming one plain ignores the subject? I'm just focusing on the "worst case scenario" Cerny talked about. Isn't it true that PS5 will need to lower clocks/power delivering in that situation? That's where SmartShift ALSO comes to play.
I respect your opinions. Respect mine.
Same guy. 🤔
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Someone is at it again and wants to claim it's an opinion.PS5 Teardown confirmed that Sony has been working on this advanced Liquid Metal cooling system for 2 years.
Aqua claims Sony panicked with a 9TF PS5 after learning of the 12TF xbox. In response they all of a sudden raised the clocks in 2019 while rushing to create a cooling system to handle it.
I'm not a rocket scientist but 2 years ago is 2018 and that's not in line with the outlandish 2019 Aqua tales.
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arfi-gorgona-O
Speaking as someone with a background in CS, there is no obligation on my side to extend any kind of respect, particularly when an opinion is at best hearsay.
I don't think i need to keep beating the horse here. It's clear there is some weird aniti-Sony bias here. The excuse that it is for "knowledge's" sake doesn't hold any water as far as im concerned because it's clear to me that the basis for the pushed narrative stems from horribly bad information, where no attempt is being made to improve said information. Even when prompted to do so.
I reckon a Vader themed one would work pretty well if the colour of the lights can be changed!
I don't think i need to keep beating the horse here. It's clear there is some weird aniti-Sony bias here. The excuse that it is for "knowledge's" sake doesn't hold any water as far as im concerned because it's clear to me that the basis for the pushed narrative stems from horribly bad information, where no attempt is being made to improve said information. Even when prompted to do so.
Yuck! I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.
The possibilities should be pretty big to get what you want since the sides come off. Might even be possible to 3D print in a big enough printer.
The possibilities should be pretty big to get what you want since the sides come off. Might even be possible to 3D print in a big enough printer.
Now that we've seen the teardown, i wonder if we'll get a die shot of Sony's die? We've seen MS's, and they have a similar layout to the current systems, but curious if the IO Sony talked about would take up extra die space requiring a new layout.
Won't hold my breath tho, to this day i don't think Sony have gone on record to say they use Jaguar cores, even tho everyone, their mothers, and the pet cat know they use jaguars in the Pro.
Won't hold my breath tho, to this day i don't think Sony have gone on record to say they use Jaguar cores, even tho everyone, their mothers, and the pet cat know they use jaguars in the Pro.