Rumour: PS4 Specs Leaked, APU Codenamed “Liverpool”

TheBreezyBB

Master Poster
Mar 22, 2007
3,428
47
0
Qatar
[QUOTE="Two4DaMoney, post: 5982350]It would be a waste of power to do 4k games even if they could. They should be stupid and stick with 720p 30fps/maybe 60fps.[/QUOTE]

If that happens i'd much rather buy a Wii and be glad and i'm not even talking about Wii U.
 

Itachi

Forum Sage
Nov 13, 2010
8,246
110
0
Winterfell
[QUOTE="Cybertox, post: 5982424]What I am really looking forward to in the next generation is 60 FPS. Smoothness.[/QUOTE]

then next gen is not the generation you are looking for :snicker
Devs will stick with 30fps which is plenty. Maybe racing, fighting and some fps games need 60fps reaction time but not all of them seeing as computational power is in short supply
 

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
Lets put it as simple as possible for you guys.

You have X amount of power.


The formula for any dev is:

Frames Per Second=(Power/resolution)*effects

It is not set in stone, and it is not, and never will be "a standard".

Its fluid and varies from dev to dev, depending on what they are doing.

Baying for a set "1080p" may make sense to you, but it is non-nonsensical to a developer.

Generally a dev will fill in the blanks of the formula...

The one that usually varies, is screen resolution if its a constant hit, or effects if it is a sporadic (but constantly sporadic) hit.
Or if its just an occasional hit, they will let FPS suffer.

This is a fluid thing, and generally speaking if a game is "locked" at a certain fps, then they have power to spare.

In fact with a locked FPS, you most definatley have power spare, because you actually ask the GPU to simply wait, and faff about for a while till we a ready to render again.
 
Last edited:

TGO

Ancient
Feb 26, 2006
10,293
31
48
38
purgatory
If they can render some amazing bullshit @720p/60fps or even 30fps I'll be fine with that
But I do expect 1080p to be common nextgen, not sure about 60fps thou

Sent via Codec
 

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="TGO, post: 5982571]If they can render some amazing bullshit @720p/60fps or even 30fps I'll be fine with that
But I do expect 1080p to be common nextgen, not sure about 60fps thou

Sent via Codec[/QUOTE]

Id just expect some really awesome up-scaling form 720p to be honest :)

You need a GPU to be 2 and 1/4 times as powerful to get the exact same results we get now in 1080p instead.
 

MonkeyClaw

Elite Guru
Oct 18, 2006
5,040
88
48
[QUOTE="TGO, post: 5982571]If they can render some amazing bullshit @720p/60fps or even 30fps I'll be fine with that
But I do expect 1080p to be common nextgen, not sure about 60fps thou

Sent via Codec[/QUOTE]

I am willing to flex on the fps as long as the game plays smooth and doesn't choke to death on its own framerate! As for resolution, I really would like them to try to make 1080p the standard, but anything below 720p in my opinion would be unacceptable! This will be the 2nd generation of HD consoles, all the games should be at a HD resolution (which HD starts at 720p)! No more of this 600p crap!


[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5982582]Id just expect some really awesome up-scaling form 720p to be honest


You need a GPU to be 2 and 1/4 times as powerful to get the exact same results we get now in 1080p instead.[/QUOTE]

Not true! Just because the pixel count is 2-1/4 times more than 720p doesn't mean it will need 2-1/4 times more power, go take come video card benchmarks and go from 720p to 1080p, the framerate doesn't drop exactly in 1/2. I know these PC benchmarks are a few years old, but they give you an idea:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-a-pc-overclock-athlon-ii-x3,2811-12.html




 
Last edited:

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="MonkeyClaw, post: 5982585]
Not true! Just because the pixel count is 2-1/4 times more than 720p doesn't mean it will need 2-1/4 times more power, go take come video card benchmarks and go from 720p to 1080p, the framerate doesn't drop exactly in 1/2. I know these PC benchmarks are a few years old, but they give you an idea:
[/QUOTE]

Uhh its true,sorry.
There are small things that influences percentages, but by in large its true.
You have to relaise in the case above, you being draw limited by the CPU's ability to talk to the GPU.
Also you cannot add post processing effects such as AA into the mix, as they are a one off hit, and nothing to do with rendering a scene.
Your no AA chart is the most accurate there.
 
Last edited:

TGO

Ancient
Feb 26, 2006
10,293
31
48
38
purgatory
I don't think PC's up rendering is the same as the games being designed at that res
Yeah I know you can get the texture and extra bits but its not really the same.

Sent via Codec



Sent via Codec
 

MonkeyClaw

Elite Guru
Oct 18, 2006
5,040
88
48
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5982607]Uhh its true,sorry.
There are small things that influences perecentages, but by in large its true.[/QUOTE]

2-1/4 just seems really high to me if you are just going up resolutions, I know it takes more power to do that, but I didn't think it would be a 1:1 increase with the pixel count. I would assume that is would be in the range of 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 to go from 720p to 1080p with all the same effects, etc. I could understand something like fillrate more than doubling because the resolution is more than doubling, but the scene physics, etc. wouldn't double in complexity. Am I wrong to be thinking this way?
 

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="MonkeyClaw, post: 5982614]2-1/4 just seems really high to me if you are just going up resolutions, I know it takes more power to do that, but I didn't think it would be a 1:1 increase with the pixel count. I would assume that is would be in the range of 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 to go from 720p to 1080p with all the same effects, etc. I could understand something like fillrate more than doubling because the resolution is more than doubling, but the scene physics, etc. wouldn't double in complexity. Am I wrong to be thinking this way?[/QUOTE]

Scene and phsyics are CPU stuff, nothing to do with GPU. Outside of the rendering.
I'm talking purely GPU raw power. Or as some like to call it fillrate. Which still isnt a correct term.
 
Last edited:

MonkeyClaw

Elite Guru
Oct 18, 2006
5,040
88
48
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5982616]Scene and phsyics are CPU stuff, nothing to do with GPU. Outside of the rendering.
I'm talking purely GPU raw power. Or as some like to call it fillrate. Which still isnt a correct term.[/QUOTE]

Depending on the programming, physics can be GPU based, just look at PhysX, it uses the GPU for physics calculations, etc.
 
Last edited:

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="MonkeyClaw, post: 5982625]Depending on the programming, physics can be GPU based, just look at PhysX, it uses the GPU for physics calculations, etc.[/QUOTE]

Its optional, you don't have to run PhysX on a GPU at all, and I doubt anyone every used it on the GPU in the console. Even then it requires the CPU to drive and set it up.
 

Foraeli

Superior Member
Dec 28, 2012
965
9
0
Oklahoma
Yeah, performance doesn't scale 1:1 with resolution. Resolution is only one aspect of rendering, and there are a lot of effects that are independent of the native rendering resolution.
 

LfCpS3

Master Poster
May 22, 2009
3,332
24
0
Every game i have tried in 60 fps on the PC is unbelievably smoother and provides a better experience than 30 fps, even games like GTA and such.

The better response from the controls, less clunky feel and games just provide a lot better gaming experience.

I do hope 60 FPS is something many try to achieve.
I even run on lower settings to get a consistent 60 fps if needed.

I was one of those who said 30 is all we need, now i disagree.

I do hope that next gen is either: 30 fps with 1080p or 60 fps with 720P ( hopefully 1080p is possible) The end to 30 fps with 720p ( or sub HD)
Sadly i doubt it.
 
Last edited:

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="Foraeli, post: 5982721]Yeah, performance doesn't scale 1:1 with resolution. Resolution is only one aspect of rendering, and there are a lot of effects that are independent of the native rendering resolution.[/QUOTE]

If your referring to shadow maps, then yes. As I said, its a percentage thing, but even then you not going to have the same shadow maps, you'll scale themn similarly.

So yes, if you want the same effects at the same % scaling, you will need a 1:1 scale with resolution.

The reason you don't on PC games, is because they don't often scale shadow maps, (like I said before there are things that change the percentages slightly). But that's about it.

But ya know, if your going to stick with a half res shadow map, that's still scaling exactly the same.

Post processing, that's a different beast again, and i am not referring to that at all.
 

Itachi

Forum Sage
Nov 13, 2010
8,246
110
0
Winterfell
Rather than talking about whether we should go 1080p or 720p, I think we should discuss the prospect of dynamic frame buffers (i.e dynamic resolution) so devs can select what things will be higher res than others. You can have some objects on screen being displayed at 720p while others at 1080p or you can entirely switch between resolutions on the fly like wipout games do.

Agni demo did this afaik and looked stunning
 
Oct 18, 2006
5,040
88
48
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5982750]If your referring to shadow maps, then yes. As I said, its a percentage thing, but even then you not going to have the same shadow maps, you'll scale themn similarly.

So yes, if you want the same effects at the same % scaling, you will need a 1:1 scale with resolution.

The reason you don't on PC games, is because they don't often scale shadow maps, (like I said before there are things that change the percentages slightly). But that's about it.

But ya know, if your going to stick with a half res shadow map, that's still scaling exactly the same.

Post processing, that's a different beast again, and i am not referring to that at all.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info! I don't know all the technicalities of how a GPU fully works, but it just didn't seem like (in my head at least) that it would be a 1:1 increase in needed power when going up resolutions!
 

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="MonkeyClaw, post: 5982787]Thanks for the info! I don't know all the technicalities of how a GPU fully works, but it just didn't seem like (in my head at least) that it would be a 1:1 increase in needed power when going up resolutions![/QUOTE]


Resolution its self can be something of a misnomer, any given scene can actually have several differing resloutoins actually in play.

Eg, shadow mapping....



As you can see same res, differing shadow effects.

Shadow mapping actual requires a scene been drawn at least's twice, They try and drop the shadow res and then blur the edges.

[QUOTE="itachi73378, post: 5982773]Rather than talking about whether we should go 1080p or 720p, I think we should discuss the prospect of dynamic frame buffers (i.e dynamic resolution) so devs can select what things will be higher res than others. [/QUOTE]

That not dynamic frame buffers. The only game i know who uses dynamic frame buffers if wipeout.

What your referring to is simply rendering differing object at different resolutions then recomposing them on the highest frame buffer.

Some games do this on far away object that are hazy.

Its a bit like dynamic LOD, but in resolution terms.

Realistically its a nightmare to do on anything other than by using say you z (distance in to the screen) to break up the image into rendering buffers.
 
Last edited:

Foraeli

Superior Member
Dec 28, 2012
965
9
0
Oklahoma
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5982750]If your referring to shadow maps, then yes. As I said, its a percentage thing, but even then you not going to have the same shadow maps, you'll scale themn similarly.

So yes, if you want the same effects at the same % scaling, you will need a 1:1 scale with resolution.

The reason you don't on PC games, is because they don't often scale shadow maps, (like I said before there are things that change the percentages slightly). But that's about it.

But ya know, if your going to stick with a half res shadow map, that's still scaling exactly the same.

Post processing, that's a different beast again, and i am not referring to that at all.[/QUOTE]

Console games use shadow maps and other resolution-independent effects as as well tho. You definitely don't need a GPU 2½ times as powerful to render the game at a resolution with 2½ times as many pixels.
 

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="Foraeli, post: 5982891]Console games use shadow maps and other resolution-independent effects as as well tho. You definitely don't need a GPU 2½ times as powerful to render the game at a resolution with 2½ times as many pixels.[/QUOTE]

Again if everything is scaled, yes you would. This aint that hard a concept to grasp. It is because games do not scale shadow maps etc by the same percentages that you get this apparent "gain".

Plus any post processing bonus.

But yeah sure you could render at any res you want, again ill reiterate with the same effects scaled at 1080p

You don't "need" 2 and half time the power, as long as your happy with the concept of the same shitty 640x360 shadow maps at 1080p as you are at 720p.
 
Last edited:

Cybertox

Forum Guru
Dec 28, 2009
3,893
68
0
Switzerland
From looking at the discussion if i want 60 FPS I have to stick with PC gaming. It a hame but i think PC-gaming is the only one offering higher frame rates than 30, developers which make games will always go for the graphics over the framerate as they have a certain hardware which will never change while PC hardware increases in performance and is more customizable so higher frame-rate is more likely on PC as all the PC games are uncapped. I will need really good hardware though in order to play the games on 60 FPS.
 
Oct 18, 2006
5,040
88
48
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5982851]Resolution its self can be something of a misnomer, any given scene can actually have several differing resloutoins actually in play.

Eg, shadow mapping....



As you can see same res, differing shadow effects.

Shadow mapping actual requires a scene been drawn at least's twice, They try and drop the shadow res and then blur the edges.



That not dynamic frame buffers. The only game i know who uses dynamic frame buffers if wipeout.

What your referring to is simply rendering differing object at different resolutions then recomposing them on the highest frame buffer.

Some games do this on far away object that are hazy.

Its a bit like dynamic LOD, but in resolution terms.

Realistically its a nightmare to do on anything other than by using say you z (distance in to the screen) to break up the image into rendering buffers.[/QUOTE]

Good points, I forgot about shadow maps, I know a lot of games this generation use the low res shadow maps, that is one thing I hope gets upgraded in games next gen!
 

Foraeli

Superior Member
Dec 28, 2012
965
9
0
Oklahoma
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5982926]Again if everything is scaled, yes you would. This aint that hard a concept to grasp. It is because games do not scale shadow maps etc by the same percentages that you get this apparent "gain".

Plus any post processing bonus.

But yeah sure you could render at any res you want, again ill reiterate with the same effects scaled at 1080p

You don't "need" 2 and half time the power, as long as your happy with the concept of the same shitty 640x360 shadow maps at 1080p as you are at 720p.[/QUOTE]

I don't know of any PC games that have poor shadow maps like you are saying, but shadow maps are not even that demanding. But what you are now saying is that 1080p requires only 2½ times the power if you also turn up all the other effects too, and that makes your original statement very misleading and inadequately worded.

But anyways, the poor 640x360 shadow maps look no less worse at higher or lower resolutions. If a game already has good shadow maps, then what is the point of scaling those shadow maps up just because you upped the resolution to 1080p?
 
Last edited:

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="Foraeli, post: 5983114]I don't know of any PC games that have poor shadow maps like you are saying, but shadow maps are not even that demanding. [/Quote]
They are very demanding, and the reason you don't see poor shadow
Maps is either because your graphics card is quite powerful, or because they are simple fudging the edges with PCF or some filter.
But what you are now saying is that 1080p requires only 2½ times the power if you also turn up all the other effects too, and that makes your original statement very misleading and inadequately worded.
I dont think it does at all go re-read it.
But anyways, the poor 640x360 shadow maps look no less worse at higher or lower resolutions. If a game already has good shadow maps, then what is the point of scaling those shadow maps up just because you upped the resolution to 1080p?
Because they aren't and they currently still look aweful in most console games.
BTW you need to actually have a good look at what is shadow mapped and what is not.
Im not even sure why your arguing, its not like gfx cards aren't already more than 2 and 1/4 times as powerful.

For the record before you try and tell me what is and isnt demanding on a game, Im an engine gfx programmer. I now exactly how demanding shadow mapping is on a gfx card.
 
Oct 18, 2006
5,040
88
48
I know for sure in Call Of Duty on the consoles, the shadows maps are not up to par, I never realized that they were so demanding so I guess that explains why they always looked so crummy! One thing I do hope for in the next gen systems is a severe increase in physics in all the objects, buildings and environments! I am hoping that the PS4/Orbis has the APU along with a separate dedicated GPU, that way the GPU inside the APU can be dedicated to stuff like physics, that would be awesome!
 

Foraeli

Superior Member
Dec 28, 2012
965
9
0
Oklahoma
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5983139]They are very demanding, and the reason you don't see poor shadow
Maps is either because your graphics card is quite powerful, or because they are simple fudging the edges with PCF or some filter.[/quote]

But next Gen consoles are going to have a very powerful card as well, and so next gen consoles won't see any noticeable drops in framerate either.

[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5983139]I dont think it does at all go re-read it.[/quote]

If you think it doesn't say that, then you are miswording what you are saying because you did say, and I'll quote it even, "if everything is scaled, yes you would."

[QUOTE="mynd, post: 5983139]Because they aren't and they currently still look aweful in most console games.
BTW you need to actually have a good look at what is shadow mapped and what is not.
Im not even sure why your arguing, its not like gfx cards aren't already more than 2 and 1/4 times as powerful.

For the record before you try and tell me what is and isnt demanding on a game, Im an engine gfx programmer. I now exactly how demanding shadow mapping is on a gfx card.[/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about poor shadow maps looking poor on current gen console games. I am talking about good shadow maps in current PC and next gen games not needing to be at any higher resolution just because you are rendering the game at 1080p over 720p. We are talking about demand on next gen consoles, not the 7-year-old current gen, and so there is no need to draw comparison to current console nor need to bring up the fact that current GPUs are more than 2½ more powerful than current consoles. The PS4 will be awesomely powerful (hopefully).

So my question is, if you have a next gen 720p game with great resolution shadow maps, what need what there be to up the resolution of the shadow maps if I decided I wanted the game to be rendered at 1080p instead of 720p?
 
Last edited:

mynd

Ultimate Veteran
May 3, 2006
20,865
182
63
47
Down Under
[QUOTE="Foraeli, post: 5983162]But next Gen consoles are going to have a very powerful card as well, and so next gen consoles won't see any noticeable drops in framerate either.



If you think it doesn't say that, then you are miswording what you are saying because you did say, and I'll quote it even, "if everything is scaled, yes you would." [/quote]
As opposed to things like shadow map not being scaled? Huh? Not sure what your saying.
If you have a shadow map at half screen res, and then go to 1080p and again scale it to 50% of screen res, that is scaled. If you dont scale it to 50% of the screen res then yes you will gain an advantage and not need as powerful a card.
I'm not talking about poor shadow maps looking poor on current gen console games. I am talking about good shadow maps in current PC and next gen games not needing to be at any higher resolution just because you are rendering the game at 1080p over 720p.
Higher than what?
We are talking about demand on next gen consoles, not the 7-year-old current gen, and so there is no need to draw comparison to current console nor need to bring up the fact that current GPUs are more than 2½ more powerful than current consoles. The PS4 will be awesomely powerful (hopefully).
Not even sure what you are trying to say, are you saying we shouldn't draw comparisims between current console tech? Current consoles have a buss that is only 128 bits wide, only gimped GPUs ever have 128 bits on a PC.
Comparing a PC GPU to what might end up in console cannot be a direct comparisim, yes the are based on them, but they are customised.
So my question is, if you have a next gen 720p console game with great resolution shadow maps, what need what there be to up the resolution of the shadow maps if I decided I wanted the game to be rendered at 1080p instead of 720p?
Because if you game has great shadow maps it probably already has a higher percentage of relative shadow map.

Youre talking in circles.
If you have say a 1280x720 shadow map, then you are already are rendering twice as much in you shadow map as you were on last gen console.
Do you need to increase it if you up
To 1080p? No of Course you dont.
 
Jun 4, 2007
13,393
179
63
I'm ready to see some games. This reveal can't come fast enough. For some reason, I can't shake that Drake and higs are going to start the ps4 out with a bang.