Sony to reveal new PlayStation 5 details TODAY (18th March)

Fijiandoce

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#31
I liked the bit where they said the audio processor was more powerful than the entire jaguar cluster... goodbye hot garbage, hope you forever burn surrounded by cacti!

Noticed a a lot of talk around the GPU of the respective SKU's, but if you only game on console, the jump up to Zen2 cores in both (and decently clocked Zen cores to boot!) is going to rock your world! I have an old Vishera, and compiling code on that thing compared to Zen2 feels like when you made the move from HDD to SSD... The jaguar is even worse than Vishera.

Other things to note: Not really sure who'd use SMT? Indie devs? Guys who use Unity/Unreal and basically run scripts over the renderer? Presumably, if you're (on ps5) going so deep as to load balance the power draw between CPU/GPU, you are also going to have your code execute in a deterministic way... rendering smt kinda moot...

Also, i know DF are big fans of audio, but the usefulness is kinda spotty. If you have a character in the middle of a city, sure you might be able to more accurately replicate the sounds of the city, but 100's of audio channels are moot if a truck engine brakes (for example) while your character is trying to deliver exposition. Blizzard have literally written books on sound design and they always pretty much say 'keep it simple'... you could argue tho that that's not "immersive" or some junk but, meh. Th efficacy of the chip i guess is up in the air.

Looks like both have taken differing philosophies this gen... dunno if Sony's memory thing will prove better, or if raw compute is the way to go, at the very least lets just be thankful both are actually gaming philosophies this time round. They'll probs merge again with their 'Pro' refreshes.

Sony seems to have the hill to climb next gen tho. Not as steep as other companies in other gens, but you can't exactly slap a sticker on a box saying "Sounds like real life", because that's just dumb. Really only rests on that memory tech. In theory, you can do some useful things with it (to save the GPU) but whether anyone actually does remains to be seen.
 

acryllicaltair

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#32
No, it isn't. Cerny said the frequency will not vary far from the base 2.23 GHz.




lol...well, yeah. Consoles aren't PCs though. Change is not something consoles handle well. You've got what you've got for years.



Not entirely true. XSX memory bandwidth is 10GB at 560GB/s, 6GB at 336GB/s
Microsoft has faster RAM for GPU tasks, and slower RAM for other things that might be better served by the CPU. Sony is splitting their entire bandwidth between CPU and GPU. That thing will have issues, especially seeing how taxing RT is. And if they hit 4K, you can almost always expect that the Series X will outperform it when it comes to frame rate.
 

mynd

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#33
Needs to be pointed out that I’ve heard a lot of “Narrow but faster” spin today regarding the GPu.

It needs to be pointed out that MS had the narrow but faster gou last gen. It didnt help at all.

PS4 18cu at 800mhz
Xbox 12cu @914mz

Xbox SX 52cu @1825
PS5 36cu @2233

Dam near identical.
 

$Greatness$

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#35
Sony completely dropped the ball on backwards compatibility and I'm angry. It's 2020 and its no excuse why all PS4 games aren't ready to go day one out of the box on PS5. But I'm a lot more disappointed about no announcement of PS1, 2 or 3 being added especially since the "competition" has added all their systems for the most part. I'm not too worried about them being less powerful than the Series X long as the games deliver. As it stands, PS5 isn't a day one buy for me, but rather a year or so later when its on sale. PC it is.
 

Christopher

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#38
After sleeping on this, it will come down to price, as always. If PS5 comes in $100 cheaper than XSX and has actual game results close to, but not as good as XSX then I think this will work out fine for Sony. But if Sony put a ton of money into SSD and cooling that brings the price up to the same level of XSX then they simply screwed up. Sony could have matched XSX TF for TF and dollar for dollar and started this gen with a slam dunk as the market leader. Now....I'm not sure. Of course, sales wise, better specs haven't yielded different results for Xbox One. Who knows?

Sony completely dropped the ball on backwards compatibility and I'm angry. It's 2020 and its no excuse why all PS4 games aren't ready to go day one out of the box on PS5. But I'm a lot more disappointed about no announcement of PS1, 2 or 3 being added especially since the "competition" has added all their systems for the most part. I'm not too worried about them being less powerful than the Series X long as the games deliver. As it stands, PS5 isn't a day one buy for me, but rather a year or so later when its on sale. PC it is.
I was very surprised at the spotty launch PS4 BC. I don't get it at all. Your competition has full BC with last gen and both use the same AMD tech this gen and last....so what's the problem? If this "completely different paradigm", as Cerny says, with the GPU is the reason for crappy BC at launch then there again is another example of Sony outsmarting themselves.

Edit: Wait.....is XSX 100% BC with X1 at launch?
 
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Fijiandoce

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#39
After sleeping on this, it will come down to price, as always. If PS5 comes in $100 cheaper than XSX and has actual game results close to, but not as good as XSX then I think this will work out fine for Sony. But if Sony put a ton of money into SSD and cooling that brings the price up to the same level of XSX then they simply screwed up. Sony could have matched XSX TF for TF and dollar for dollar and started this gen with a slam dunk as the market leader. Now....I'm not sure. Of course, sales wise, better specs haven't yielded different results for Xbox One. Who knows?
MS have the potential to offset the console price since the thing is a literal pipe into a persons living room from Azure. Advertising is a big deal for these cloud service providers. A larger install base means more money selling data to advertisers. They already do it with Win10 which is now the dominant OS... and they gave that out for free.

Not saying they'd go freemium, but if they came in at a highly competitive price point, i wouldn't be too surprised.

Needs to be pointed out that I’ve heard a lot of “Narrow but faster” spin today regarding the GPu.

It needs to be pointed out that MS had the narrow but faster gou last gen. It didnt help at all.

PS4 18cu at 800mhz
Xbox 12cu @914mz

Xbox SX 52cu @1825
PS5 36cu @2233

Dam near identical.
At least the XB had a CPU lead at launch that led to some titles performing better. PS5 doesn't outwardly seem to have a perf. lead unless they're hiding dedicated RT hardware somewhere and just decided to be coy for the lols [edit: just read the article posted by tidal, lol nope]... at least they can try to boast 100x more audio tracks or something. Those load times need to be something revolutionary to be worth it.
I'd be down for a platform with no load times... but i don't really see that being a thing. Eventually, you clog the pipe up again doing what they always do which means the loading goes right back in.
 
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Aquanox

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#40
BTW... that Backwards compatibility doesn't look very appealing compared to Series X. Probably going to hard on Sony but the bar has been set very high by MS and many expected Sony to follow suit. While one says "most of the Top 100 games will be backwards compatible", MS says, Games compatibility will be seamless and they will be favored by extra FPS and automatic HDR for games that didn't even have it! On top of that, the most important games will get a "Remaster" with no extra cost... aiming for Gears 5 to hit 120fps! How awesome is that?

I would replay some games on the Series X just for that. (Batman Dark Knight, I'm looking at you!)
 

Aquanox

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#41
P.S. How about if price is the same? Sony has also spent their bucks in their ultra fast SSD... MS in the APU and RAM. Yeah, definitely the Series X will be more expensive to make but given Microsot's ultra aggressive strategy, I wouldn't find it surprising if they both are priced the same.
 

sainraja

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#42
Xbox is going to be the more powerful console next gen.
PS5 will be variable but less than XSX.
Then, if Sony announces the Pro, it might edge out XSX and MS will announce something that might be better.
Regardless of what ends up happening, I haven’t seen people’s attitudes here change about the platform they prefer. That’s a constant. 😆
 
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TidalPhoenix

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#43
Regardless of what ends up happening, I haven’t seen people’s attitudes here change about the platform they prefer. That’s a constant. 😆
WOOT! PC all the way :D

This will all come down to price and effective cooling. PS5 needs to undercut MS, but they won't - I'm sure of it. I'd rather have a good performing system that's quiet than a great performing system that drowns out the dialog. I hope they both have really good cooling systems.
 
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sainraja

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#44
I’ve invested in all platforms at this point (even PC). I don’t know how much I’ll invest going forward since I haven’t been able to play. 😔

My main game has been Hearthstone. 😄
 

mynd

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#45
After sleeping on this, it will come down to price, as always. If PS5 comes in $100 cheaper than XSX and has actual game results close to, but not as good as XSX then I think this will work out fine for Sony. But if Sony put a ton of money into SSD and cooling that brings the price up to the same level of XSX then they simply screwed up.

Edit: Wait.....is XSX 100% BC with X1 at launch?
Yes 100% compatibility.
Non HDR games are being artificially boosted to HDR.
Plus select titles will be enhanced in framerate and or resolution.

Agree about the price, as long as it’s cheaper it will do fine.
 

Christopher

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#46
Yes 100% compatibility.
Non HDR games are being artificially boosted to HDR.
Plus select titles will be enhanced in framerate and or resolution.

Agree about the price, as long as it’s cheaper it will do fine.
And yeah, that's what I thought. I don't get why PS5 isn't automatically BC with PS4 day one without any tweaks and no performance boost. That should just be automatic. Here MS is going above and beyond and Sony is stumbling out the gate. sigh.
 

mynd

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#47
And yeah, that's what I thought. I don't get why PS5 isn't automatically BC with PS4 day one without any tweaks and no performance boost. That should just be automatic. Here MS is going above and beyond and Sony is stumbling out the gate. sigh.
Given this is specifically the reason they limited themselves to 36cu's, yeah its a bit of a fail.
 
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Shingo

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#48
Let’s put it this way, God of War cranks the fan up on most PS4’s. The way this works, this won’t happen, your GPU performance is simply going to go down. Sony has effectively capped the thermals. If too much power is being used it throttles the units rather than make it hotter.
But you can't say its going to complete silence. I don't see that happening either. The fan is gonna scream at some point.
 

$Greatness$

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#49
After sleeping on this, it will come down to price, as always. If PS5 comes in $100 cheaper than XSX and has actual game results close to, but not as good as XSX then I think this will work out fine for Sony. But if Sony put a ton of money into SSD and cooling that brings the price up to the same level of XSX then they simply screwed up. Sony could have matched XSX TF for TF and dollar for dollar and started this gen with a slam dunk as the market leader. Now....I'm not sure. Of course, sales wise, better specs haven't yielded different results for Xbox One. Who knows?



I was very surprised at the spotty launch PS4 BC. I don't get it at all. Your competition has full BC with last gen and both use the same AMD tech this gen and last....so what's the problem? If this "completely different paradigm", as Cerny says, with the GPU is the reason for crappy BC at launch then there again is another example of Sony outsmarting themselves.

Edit: Wait.....is XSX 100% BC with X1 at launch?
From my understanding, yes. And it further indicts Sony for a piss poor excuse of not having at least a working version of BC with PS1,2 or 4. I give them the benefit of the doubt with PS3 because of the structure. And then the fact everything won't work at launch with PS4 is just got damn retarded. Never been so disappointed in a Sony console, ever.
 

Christopher

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#50
I think this may be why Sony has been so reluctant to talk about PS5. They were afraid of the backlash coming because they didn't deliver the BC they promised in the wired interview last year. What is next? I'm suddenly very worried about PlayStation overall.

Two days later.....we get an update...

UPDATE: A quick update on backward compatibility – With all of the amazing games in PS4’s catalog, we’ve devoted significant efforts to enable our fans to play their favorites on PS5. We believe that the overwhelming majority of the 4,000+ PS4 titles will be playable on PS5.

We’re expecting backward compatible titles will run at a boosted frequency on PS5 so that they can benefit from higher or more stable frame rates and potentially higher resolutions. We’re currently evaluating games on a title-by-title basis to spot any issues that need adjustment from the original software developers.

In his presentation, Mark Cerny provided a snapshot into the Top 100 most-played PS4 titles, demonstrating how well our backward compatibility efforts are going. We have already tested hundreds of titles and are preparing to test thousands more as we move toward launch. We will provide updates on backward compatibility, along with much more PS5 news, in the months ahead. Stay tuned!



https://blog.us.playstation.com/202...ls-of-playstation-5-hardware-technical-specs/
 
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mynd

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#51
So basically they aren’t down clocking the cpu at all and just hoping the gpu emulation is enough. Some games are going to break for sure.
It’s a vague hope of better res based on already built in dynamic res, but no actual enhanced work going on by them. This is a weirdly half arsed way of doing it. It’s like they did half the job and then said “that will do”.
 
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Christopher

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#53
Trying to compare apples to apples:




Well, Cerny said 2.23 GHz "or close to" is sustainable. Guess we will see with real benchmarks. But those graphs are strange. They could have done another where the PS5 had "XSX-like CUs". Why not just focus on what the hardware has rather than compare what it doesn't have. Just doesn't make sense.

And why throw in Nvidia cards at all? RDNA 1 teraflops are not directly comparable to RDNA 2 and certainly not Nvidia Turing. That's actually completely apples to oranges.
 

Aquanox

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#54
And why throw in Nvidia cards at all? RDNA 1 teraflops are not directly comparable to RDNA 2 and certainly not Nvidia Turing. That's actually completely apples to oranges.
I guess those are for reference only. The key is the comparison between both consoles.

And about that comparison, yesterday, big news for these new features emerged as MS and nVidia announced DirectX 12 Ultra, something that they both have been working on in the past year and will let Series X take advantage of next gen features like GPU exclusive Ray Tracing, Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback .

Not only this means that games should have much better Ray Tracing capabilities but also raises the question on which console would be best to develop for as a primary platform. Given that developing for PC and Series X will be so similar, MS might have won that war before it began. Time will tell, but it looks like MS has addressed next gen taking advantages of all their resources and strengths. They're going serious this time around.

https://www.tomsguide.com/uk/news/x...ate-ps5-with-these-amazing-pc-gaming-features
 
May 20, 2008
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#55
Well, Cerny said 2.23 GHz "or close to" is sustainable. Guess we will see with real benchmarks. But those graphs are strange. They could have done another where the PS5 had "XSX-like CUs". Why not just focus on what the hardware has rather than compare what it doesn't have. Just doesn't make sense.

And why throw in Nvidia cards at all? RDNA 1 teraflops are not directly comparable to RDNA 2 and certainly not Nvidia Turing. That's actually completely apples to oranges.
You sure about that? I didn't hear the word sustainable in the audio clip you posted earlier in the thread. He said " remain at or close to".
 

Fijiandoce

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#56
You sure about that? I didn't hear the word sustainable in the audio clip you posted earlier in the thread. He said " remain at or close to".
The reference from Cerny was that of a 'worst case', where a title hits both the GPU and CPU at the same time. I believe he made specific note that the CPU would be running AVX-512 (or was is 2?) instructions in this case - Keep in mind, he was addressing devs, not general public. These instructions speed up work by orders of magnitude, but chuck out heat, and subsequently suck up power like you own your own reactor. Additionally, the clocks are also usually lowered anyways (which you don't minds given the perf. benefit). No reason to think it would be different on the XB side as well for this use case.
 

Christopher

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#57
I guess those are for reference only. The key is the comparison between both consoles.

And about that comparison, yesterday, big news for these new features emerged as MS and nVidia announced DirectX 12 Ultra, something that they both have been working on in the past year and will let Series X take advantage of next gen features like GPU exclusive Ray Tracing, Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback .

Not only this means that games should have much better Ray Tracing capabilities but also raises the question on which console would be best to develop for as a primary platform. Given that developing for PC and Series X will be so similar, MS might have won that war before it began. Time will tell, but it looks like MS has addressed next gen taking advantages of all their resources and strengths. They're going serious this time around.

https://www.tomsguide.com/uk/news/x...ate-ps5-with-these-amazing-pc-gaming-features
That is especially great news for PC when it comes to tech like DirectStorage which will hopefully bring the SSD advances in the consoles over for PC gaming.

I imagine the target console for development is going to be the one with the larger install base regardless. But I guess, to your point, if a unified Nvidia PC/AMD PC/XSX base becomes the more enticing group of gamers then yeah, that very well could be the case. I don't think it really matters that much anymore though. We are not talking about a scenario like we had with PS3 where the tech was so dramatically different and we saw much different results between consoles. Things are much more in line now.

You sure about that? I didn't hear the word sustainable in the audio clip you posted earlier in the thread. He said " remain at or close to".
Fiji explained that pretty well. Either way, the variance isn't going to be anything close to what those graphs imply. It would take a 10% reduction in frequency to reach that level. That graph is making some extreme assumptions on what is "sustainable".
 
May 20, 2008
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#58
Fiji explained that pretty well.
There is really nothing to explain. I know the difference between peak and sustain performances. Cerny was talking peak performance, capped and variable clock rates. He wasn't very clear on that as well as other things about the console


PS5 peak GPU clock speed = 2.23 GHz Peak performance =10.3 TFLOPS
PS5 sustained 2.0 GHz Peak Performance=9.2 TFLOPS



Either way, the variance isn't going to be anything close to what those graphs imply. It would take a 10% reduction in frequency to reach that level. That graph is making some extreme assumptions on what is "sustainable".
Maybe so, but if you go back and look at both reveals you will see MS uses the words " sustain" and "stable".
 

Christopher

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#59
There is really nothing to explain. I know the difference between peak and sustain performances. Cerny was talking peak performance, capped and variable clock rates. He wasn't very clear on that as well as other things about the console


PS5 peak GPU clock speed = 2.23 GHz Peak performance =10.3 TFLOPS
PS5 sustained 2.0 GHz Peak Performance=9.2 TFLOPS


Maybe so, but if you go back and look at both reveals you will see MS uses the words " sustain" and "stable".
Probably because most GPUs on the market are not fixed frequency. Spencer is highlighting that XSX is. That's fine, but it really doesn't have anything to do with PS5. The GPU in my PC runs at variable frequencies. I see it all the time as I run MSI afterburner in my games. Look at any game running benchmarks on youtube that show the frequencies and you will see the number adjusting quite frequently. This is typical.

Teraflops are measured using the maximum frequency of the GPU. PS5's maximum frequency is 2.23 GHz and that is the clock speed used to calculate the number. There is no basis for using 2.0 GHz. Cerny flatly said he expected minimal downclocking in extreme situations. He said a 2% downclock would result in a 10% decrease against the power budget. So say we double that. A 4% frequency downclock is going to be 2.15. If that were the maximum frequency of the PS5 GPU then your teraflops are at 9.9. Still a far cry from the numbers used in the graphs.

LIke I said, whether or not PS5 can truly sustain that level of performance will have to be evaluated with resolution and frame-rate. I'm sure DF will be all over both consoles.
 
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Fijiandoce

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#60
There is really nothing to explain. I know the difference between peak and sustain performances. Cerny was talking peak performance, capped and variable clock rates. He wasn't very clear on that as well as other things about the console.
I think it's also important to note the context here.

It's apparent how console gamer's perceive this. To put what Cerny was saying into some perspective (and this goes for the XB as well) a single Zen 2 core (with smt as well, whatevs.) would offer a multi-generational jump from what console gamers are used to with the jaguar. 8 of these cores (again, with smt but whatevs) is a literal game changer.

So both consoles are going to be GPU limited for a long time. As i said, Cerny was making note of an eventual title, at some point down the line, that hit both CPU/GPU hard. You probs aren't going to see that sort of optimization for a while from either party.

LIke I said, whether or not PS5 can truly sustain that level of performance will have to be evaluated with resolution and frame-rate. I'm sure DF will be all over both consoles.
Probs, when all is said and done, we're just going to see a flip of what we saw this gen. One console runs at a higher res (maybe native 4K?) and the other runs at a sub native res. Hopefully we don't get that cringe "quality of the pixel" kinda statements on Sony's side tho... It's been an entire generation and i still haven't forgotten how bad that was.

On Sony's one advantage though, i don't think there's any real use case outside of their own first party, yeah? Theoretically, you could have a more detail rich environment than the XB, but who'd implement their game this way? If you have an object you want the player to see (and take note of) you aren't going to offer two different models per console: One which has Sony hierarchy attached, and one without.
Hopefully the absence of that means no load times. It would be pretty sweet to just sit down and click 'go' and you're basically in the game.