Sony to reveal new PlayStation 5 details TODAY (18th March)

May 20, 2008
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#61
I think it's also important to note the context here.

It's apparent how console gamer's perceive this. To put what Cerny was saying into some perspective (and this goes for the XB as well) a single Zen 2 core (with smt as well, whatevs.) would offer a multi-generational jump from what console gamers are used to with the jaguar. 8 of these cores (again, with smt but whatevs) is a literal game changer.

So both consoles are going to be GPU limited for a long time. As i said, Cerny was making note of an eventual title, at some point down the line, that hit both CPU/GPU hard. You probs aren't going to see that sort of optimization for a while from either party.


Probs, when all is said and done, we're just going to see a flip of what we saw this gen. One console runs at a higher res (maybe native 4K?) and the other runs at a sub native res. Hopefully we don't get that cringe "quality of the pixel" kinda statements on Sony's side tho... It's been an entire generation and i still haven't forgotten how bad that was.

On Sony's one advantage though, i don't think there's any real use case outside of their own first party, yeah? Theoretically, you could have a more detail rich environment than the XB, but who'd implement their game this way? If you have an object you want the player to see (and take note of) you aren't going to offer two different models per console: One which has Sony hierarchy attached, and one without.
Hopefully the absence of that means no load times. It would be pretty sweet to just sit down and click 'go' and you're basically in the game.
I guess we will see what happens. I don't think a faster SSD and more "agile" GPU is going to offset the other advantages the series x has. The vagueness of that reveal left more questions than answers IMO. Right now what we are seeing is just the marketing stuff, but i believe Microsoft really surprised them with the series x and that is why it took so long for them to give details about PS5. I
 

Fijiandoce

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Staff member
Oct 8, 2007
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#62
Just realized neither console has any actual dedicated ray-tracing hardware units - akin to Turing.

Wondering if this is the path forward for the tech, and Nvidia will follow suit, or if AMD are working it into their existing pipeline similar to how Nvidia work it with the older pascal cards?

Not too sure what the dealio is with that, i think Sony said it's basically free(?) which doesn't make sense. If they aren't doing the intersect testing with matrices through dedicated hardware to accelerate matrix multiplication, how they getting the rays calculated?

EDIT:
nvm, foud this:
(Follow the twitter thread if half interested)

Don't really answer though.

Looks like the data is being stored in a texture (fair enough) and the math is being done in there. Odd work around.

This can't possibly be 'free', surely?

EDIT:
If i understand it correctly (and the patents are correct), Sony might be royally boned until the mid-gen refreshes. Since they run less CU's, they inherently have less "hardware" to work the calculations. The clock speed offsets that, but still, if there is a noticeable difference in output, it's going to be here foremost.

That loading tech they got really needs to be something the XB can't replicate, and the price needs to be unmatchable in any short term for this to be pretty. Like with the PS3, i feel like Sony are gunna lean heavily on their First party again.

Lastly, i don't think this is going to rival Nvidia any time soon. Their hardware is pretty damn amazing at accelerating this particular workload...and built to do just that. Seriously don't see how this is 'free' as Sony says.
Just looked up Nvidia's spec sheet for some of their Tensor parts. In some cases, there is like a 500% diff. At the very least, there will be some good tech talks about this method of raytracing. It's new at least!
 
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Fijiandoce

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Oct 8, 2007
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#63
If i understand it correctly (and the patents are correct), Sony might be royally boned until the mid-gen refreshes. Since they run less CU's, they inherently have less "hardware" to work the calculations. The clock speed offsets that, but still, if there is a noticeable difference in output, it's going to be here foremost.
I'm going to quote myself since that seems like it'll be the safer option, but according to Jason Schreier, the general sentiment expressed online, and by myself above, isn't a sentiment shared with devs who have had hands on with the actual hardware.

You can listen to the podcast if you's want: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kotaku-splitscreen/e/68137225?autoplay=true
(starts ~41 mins)

Essentially, it seems Sony had it's "TV" moment.

I'm still not convinced, i watched Cerney's presentation, and maybe he talked about the wrong thing (even for devs) but i don't see it. But Schreier is usually on the money with developer sentiment - Destiny, Anthem, Even told Sony fans the day before what they were about to watch etc. etc. Maybe the loading times are the bee's knees?
 

acryllicaltair

Dedicated Member
Feb 24, 2010
1,158
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#64
I guess we will see what happens. I don't think a faster SSD and more "agile" GPU is going to offset the other advantages the series x has. The vagueness of that reveal left more questions than answers IMO. Right now what we are seeing is just the marketing stuff, but i believe Microsoft really surprised them with the series x and that is why it took so long for them to give details about PS5. I
I wonder how agile the GPU is when you are going to have contention between the CPU and GPU when it comes to bandwidth and lower bandwidth total. The gapis only going to get bigger when the CPU needs more resources.
 

Aquanox

Forum Sage
May 26, 2005
8,191
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#65
Lastly, i don't think this is going to rival Nvidia any time soon. Their hardware is pretty damn amazing at accelerating this particular workload...and built to do just that. Seriously don't see how this is 'free' as Sony says.
Just looked up Nvidia's spec sheet for some of their Tensor parts. In some cases, there is like a 500% diff. At the very least, there will be some good tech talks about this method of raytracing. It's new at least!
Indeed, in terms of Ray Tracing, a high end nVidia card has more resources dedicated to it than Series X, but this alliance will allow Series X to squeeze what they have up to the steel. In comparison, I'm not sure if PS5 has this (at all), but it looks like apart from the TFlops difference, Ray Tracing could be a game changer between both.
 

Fijiandoce

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Staff member
Oct 8, 2007
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#66
Indeed, in terms of Ray Tracing, a high end nVidia card has more resources dedicated to it than Series X, but this alliance will allow Series X to squeeze what they have up to the steel. In comparison, I'm not sure if PS5 has this (at all), but it looks like apart from the TFlops difference, Ray Tracing could be a game changer between both.
Nvidia are keen because they've invested billions in R&D - It's one of the things i dislike about AMD in this space - so they have impetus to get it integrated, otherwise it goes the way of Ageia (RIP). Where better than at the actual API level?
Vulkan have also implemented their own RT with some (maybe?) useful additions (spare CPU can also cast rays), so it seems like it is paying off for Nvidia and the industry is biting. Wonder if we eventually see the Vulkan implementation come over to console as well? As i mentioned above, these consoles are going to be GPU bound for years!

Also, wondering @mynd if you have any inkling as to how they actually do the math using texture units? It's a guess on my part, but since you are already mapping the texture to a mesh, you have the coordinates already and can find the intersections from there when you run the shader? Whereas with Turing you basically waste that pass and go find all the intersections again with the dedicated hardware? This would start to align it with the notion of it being "basically free" (i think was the actual term Sony used).