The Middle East Problem.

[MossadAgentO]

The Middle East Problem - Prager University
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4

I believe the muslims should recognize and realize that the Jewish State of Israel has the right to exist. The palestinians were offered 97% of the west bank , western jerusalem, and gaza to them twice. They refused the deal in 1948 and 2000 camp david accords when Bill Clinton was president. They want all of Israel no question about that. Did you know the Qur'an never mentioned Israel or Palestine or Jerusalem even once? The bible mentioned Israel,Israelites, and Jerusalem over 600 times. Can anyone explain that?(seriously)

I'm really curious to have a reasonable non heated debates/arguments that are spoken well and within reason.

 

[Lefein]

The Palestinian territories aren't even a contiguous land mass at this point and you wonder why people are launching rockets into your backyard?

 

[MossadAgentO]

So who was in israel before the palestinians? There was always a jewish presence in the holy land. Should the U.S.A withdraw from the occupied territories?

 

[Lefein]

Perhaps Israel will come lend it's military might to take back America from it's unrightful non-Native American invaders?

 

[Itachi]

[QUOTE="MossadAgentO, post: 6170212]The Middle East Problem - Prager University
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4

I believe the muslims should recognize and realize that the Jewish State of Israel has the right to exist. The palestinians were offered 97% of the west bank , western jerusalem, and gaza to them twice. They refused the deal in 1948 and 2000 camp david accords when Bill Clinton was president. They want all of Israel no question about that. Did you know the Qur'an never mentioned Israel or Palestine or Jerusalem even once? The bible mentioned Israel,Israelites, and Jerusalem over 600 times. Can anyone explain that?(seriously)

I'm really curious to have a reasonable non heated debates/arguments that are spoken well and within reason.[/QUOTE]

The Quran mentions Bani Israel (Children of Israel) and the Golden Mosque (Masjid Al-Aqsa) many times. I don't know where you got that from.

 

[MossadAgentO]

[QUOTE="itachi73378, post: 6170237]The Quran mentions Bani Israel (Children of Israel) and the Golden Mosque (Masjid Al-Aqsa) many times. I don't know where you got that from.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to do this but can you find a source of the dome of the rock or golden mosque in the quran?

Edit: I found this which says its B.S.
e. sura 17 :1 says Muhammad went to the "farthest Mosque" during his journey by night (the Mi'raj), which Muslims explain was the Dome of the Rock mosque, in Jerusalem. But there was no mosque in Jerusalem during the life of Muhammad, and the Dome of the Rock was not built until 690 C.E., by the Amir 'Abd al Malik, a full 58 years after Muhammad's death! There was not even a temple in existence at that time. The temple of Jerusalem had been destroyed by Titus 570 years before this vision. So what was this mosque Muhammad supposedly saw?

 

[reasonable_doubt]

[QUOTE="Lefein, post: 6170222]

The Palestinian territories aren't even a contiguous land mass at this point and you wonder why people are launching rockets into your backyard?[/QUOTE]

Yes, the Middle East was created in 1946, and the Earth is 4000 years old...

 

[TheBreezyBB]

This is not gonna end well. I think this thread should be closed.

 

[Itachi]

[QUOTE="MossadAgentO, post: 6170238]Sorry to do this but can you find a source of the dome of the rock or golden mosque in the quran?

Edit: I found this which says its B.S.
e. sura 17 :1 says Muhammad went to the "farthest Mosque" during his journey by night (the Mi'raj), which Muslims explain was the Dome of the Rock mosque, in Jerusalem. But there was no mosque in Jerusalem during the life of Muhammad, and the Dome of the Rock was not built until 690 C.E., by the Amir 'Abd al Malik, a full 58 years after Muhammad's death! There was not even a temple in existence at that time. The temple of Jerusalem had been destroyed by Titus 570 years before this vision. So what was this mosque Muhammad supposedly saw?[/QUOTE]

You are correct that the Dome we see today wasn't constructed until much later by the caliphs. The mosque is different from the Golden Dome
They are nearby but not the same

So I guess there won't be a direct quote of the Golden Mosque because it wasn't even built yet. Only Al Aqsa. I don't know much about this subject though so I'll shut up before I relay false info without researching it :snicker

 

[MossadAgentO]

[QUOTE="brebaz, post: 6170287]This is not gonna end well. I think this thread should be closed.[/QUOTE]

I dont see why we cant have a simple discussion.

 

[Captobvious75]

I could careless what happens. Its humans killing humans, and no country should waste money assisting either side. Religion will be the death of the human race...

 

[Itachi]

[QUOTE="Captobvious75, post: 6170904]I could careless what happens. Its humans killing humans, and no country should waste money assisting either side. Religion will be the death of the human race...[/QUOTE]

If religion is gone tomorrow, will we live in a utopia where no human will ever fight another?

 

[MossadAgentO]

Neturei Karta[/URL] activists, who were apparently unfazed by the event taking place on Shabbat (the Jewish Sabbath).

Demonstrators proudly waved the flags of Iranian, Syrian and Hizbullah flags, alongside pictures of Ayatollah Khomeini.

The annual rally took place north of the Ontario parliament building this year, after the provincial government rejected a request by the organizers to hold it in front of the parliament building itself, as they had done in previous years.

Sunni Muslims apparently boycotted the rally, most probably due to the war crimes carried out by the Assad regime of Syria with the full military support of Iran and their Lebanese proxies Hizbullah, against the largely Sunni opposition there.

Everyone knows that the "Palestinians" want all of Israel. If Israel ever was accused of ethnic cleansing then why are there 1.4 million Israeli Arabs in Israel not including the west bank/gaza; but no Jews in any Muslim country? Why weren't they "ethnically cleansed already? This has to be the slowest "genocide" in the world where life expectancy of Palestinains has gone UP from age 45 in 1948 to age around 75- 85 in 2012

 

[Ezekiel]

[QUOTE="MossadAgentO, post: 6170225]So who was in israel before the palestinians? There was always a jewish presence in the holy land. Should the U.S.A withdraw from the occupied territories?

[/QUOTE]

Big problem with your logic but nothing new considering it's you. Most of the United States territory was gained fair and square though some of it was gained through provocations with then established powers.

1. The Louisiana Purchase was a fair exchange in that Napoleon Bonaparte needed money to finance his war against Great Britain and further saw it as sticking it to the British by essentially doubling America's territory.

2. The Florida Purchase was a fair trade deal made with Spain in exchange for a small portion of the then Louisiana territory. During this time, Spain also surrendered the Oregon Country through the Adams-Oris Treaty.

3. My only contention is the acquisition of parts of then Mexico wherein The United States provoked Mexico into the Mexican-American War. Texas was entered into the US fair and square when it first declared its independence from Mexico and then formally applied for and received statehood status within the United States. Following Mexico's defeat and near destruction, America did get the southwest territories as per a treaty with Mexico and Mexico received a lot of money to get its financial house in order.

4. The natives lost out mainly because in times of war, they were on the losing side. Such is the case with the Revolutionary War, War Of 1812 and Mexican-American War. While I'll never approve of dislocation of a people or genocide, (as is the case with the Iroquois but kinda brought on themselves with their constant raids) regardless of the circumstances and events, the borders of the Contiguous United States has been set for roughly 141-164 years with very few irregularities. The border squabbles are few and far between and are constantly being dealt with diplomatically.

Can Israel say the same? It's very reformation in 1947 was built on the confiscation of lands of other established nation states. It gained a lot of territory through a couple of its preemptive acts of aggression, effectively stealing land from various nations. If you want to make a case of Israel having a right to exist because it was there before, I'll make the case for Iran, formally known as the Persian Empire having rights to the bulk of the Middle East because it was formed prior to that of just about every other Middle Eastern nation, including Israel.

And guess what? Israel with its Judaism religion, the Arabs and Muslim religion of Islam and Christianity are all succession religions of an older religion known as Zoroastrianism.

By the way, you can thank the Assyrians for the destruction of ancient Israel.

 

[Vulgotha]

[QUOTE="Lefein, post: 6170234]Perhaps Israel will come lend it's military might to take back America from it's unrightful non-Native American invaders?[/QUOTE]

Something to consider, though (as much as I dislike the Israeli's, and Palestinians for that matter) no group has a 'claim' to land. Before the palestinians settled there, it was wrestled by force from some other population. Same thing before them.

Unless there was literally no one else there before (like Native Americans in US), nobody can say "we were here first". Might makes right, historically.

 

[Omar]

life expectancy you say?

A Young Doctor Fights The Depression Epidemic In Palestine - Forbes


Palestinian youth depressed, insecure and increasingly identify with Islam


Poll on depression in the occupied Palestinian territories


40% of Palestinians suffer from Depression - The Vigilant


lovely place you guys have created for them. I'm surprised we don't take vacations there.

 

[-Dj-]

why all religion threads have to be about islam

 

[Omar]

[QUOTE="-Dj-, post: 6171488]why all religion threads have to be about islam [/QUOTE]
because it's the worst religion in the universe.

[QUOTE="Vulgotha, post: 6171480]Something to consider, though (as much as I dislike the Israeli's, and Palestinians for that matter) no group has a 'claim' to land. Before the palestinians settled there, it was wrestled by force from some other population. Same thing before them.

Unless there was literally no one else there before (like Native Americans in US), nobody can say "we were here first". Might makes right, historically.[/QUOTE]
yup, i totally agree but also there's never been anyone in the history of mankind that did not resist to the fullest of occupiers.

you have to either be fair or you have to wipe them all out. you can't keep your knee on someone's throat and not expect them to react.

 

[-Dj-]

[QUOTE="Sufi, post: 6171489]because it's the worst religion in the universe.[/QUOTE]
i can think alot worst religions then islam

 

[33x]

Sheeeeeeit......

 

[MonkeyClaw]

[QUOTE="itachi73378, post: 6171181]If religion is gone tomorrow, will we live in a utopia where no human will ever fight another?[/QUOTE]

People will always find a reason to fight, but if religion never existed we would probably have a much more prosperous world at this point...look back in history and see how many people have died because of religion...

[video=youtube;6oxTMUTOz0w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxTMUTOz0w[/video]

I swear, I am going to go buy one of these wallets and send it to Neil DeGrasse Tyson because he truly is a Bad Mother Fucker!

 

[Itachi]

[QUOTE="MonkeyClaw, post: 6171518]People will always find a reason to fight, but if religion never existed we would probably have a much more prosperous world at this point...look back in history and see how many people have died because of religion...
[/QUOTE]
That's the thing, I feel religion can never NOT exist because its born from what people believe in, and people will always believe in something. The conflict part comes from the disagreement over that something or just disrespecting the rights or beliefs of people. As long as people have free will and a working mind, disagreements will occur and will sometimes escalate.

At the same time people need to accept the fact that the world is huge with all sorts of people and that there will be times where they will not see eye to eye with you. In that case its up to you to decide how to approach the problem

 

[MonkeyClaw]

[QUOTE="itachi73378, post: 6171523]That's the thing, I feel religion can never NOT exist because its born from what people believe in, and people will always believe in something. The conflict part comes from the disagreement over that something or just disrespecting the rights or beliefs of people. As long as people have free will and a working mind, disagreements will occur and will sometimes escalate.

At the same time people need to accept the fact that the world is huge with all sorts of people and that there will be times where they will not see eye to eye with you. In that case its up to you to decide how to approach the problem[/QUOTE]

Many people don't believe in anything (like myself), thus atheism. I don't care what other people believe as long as they are trying to push their beliefs on me, I have friends that are all over the religious map, but we respect each other, I don't push my atheism on them and they don't push their religions on me.

 

[Omar]

there's no reason to believe that one day if religion stops to exist that people will still not act like what human beings normally do.

destruction is part of us.

 

[Itachi]

[QUOTE="MonkeyClaw, post: 6171536]Many people don't believe in anything (like myself), thus atheism. I don't care what other people believe as long as they are trying to push their beliefs on me, I have friends that are all over the religious map, but we respect each other, I don't push my atheism on them and they don't push their religions on me.[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean "something" to be divine entity in that sentence, but rather anything at all; an idea, a concept etc.
Point was that conflict doesn't depend on the particular 'something' but on the differences between people

 

[Omar]

exactly. it's like saying that we should burn all the copies of "catcher in the rye" because that inspired a killer to kill. human beings will find inspiration to fulfill any prophecies in their heads. it doesn't matter what it is. sometimes it's a weapon, sometimes it's a book. or a goddamn video game :lol:

 

[MonkeyClaw]

[QUOTE="Sufi, post: 6171547]there's no reason to believe that one day if religion stops to exist that people will still not act like what human beings normally do.

destruction is part of us.[/QUOTE]

That is very true unfortunately, we are a very destruction species! Just look at what we do to our planet that we live on (not trying to be all hippy), we are constantly destroying the environment! The movie Wall-E isn't too far off...

[QUOTE="itachi73378, post: 6171549]I didn't mean "something" to be divine entity in that sentence, but rather anything at all; an idea, a concept etc.
Point was that conflict doesn't depend on the particular 'something' but on the differences between people[/QUOTE]

Ahhh, yes, I agree with you on that, even without the divine entity people will still argue and fight over what they believe is correct. People in general just need to learn to be more passive and not have the need to convert other people to their beliefs, let them choose on their own. The one thing that pisses me off is to see parents pushing all their 'beliefs' onto their children and not letting the child figure stuff out for themselves, I refuse to push any beliefs onto my daughter, I don't in anyway push my atheist beliefs onto her...she is free to choose what ever suites her and makes her happy in life, but it is for her to figure out...

 

[claud3]

Simpy put, why care you do not live there and let them two states get on with how that want to treat one another...

No one else's business how a country treats another, unless it is in your backyard...

 

[Vulgotha]

[QUOTE="Morganator, post: 6171454]Big problem with your logic but nothing new considering it's you. Most of the United States territory was gained fair and square though some of it was gained through provocations with then established powers.

1. The Louisiana Purchase was a fair exchange in that Napoleon Bonaparte needed money to finance his war against Great Britain and further saw it as sticking it to the British by essentially doubling America's territory.

2. The Florida Purchase was a fair trade deal made with Spain in exchange for a small portion of the then Louisiana territory. During this time, Spain also surrendered the Oregon Country through the Adams-Oris Treaty.

3. My only contention is the acquisition of parts of then Mexico wherein The United States provoked Mexico into the Mexican-American War. Texas was entered into the US fair and square when it first declared its independence from Mexico and then formally applied for and received statehood status within the United States. Following Mexico's defeat and near destruction, America did get the southwest territories as per a treaty with Mexico and Mexico received a lot of money to get its financial house in order.

4. The natives lost out mainly because in times of war, they were on the losing side. Such is the case with the Revolutionary War, War Of 1812 and Mexican-American War. While I'll never approve of dislocation of a people or genocide, (as is the case with the Iroquois but kinda brought on themselves with their constant raids) regardless of the circumstances and events, the borders of the Contiguous United States has been set for roughly 141-164 years with very few irregularities. The border squabbles are few and far between and are constantly being dealt with diplomatically.

Can Israel say the same? It's very reformation in 1947 was built on the confiscation of lands of other established nation states. It gained a lot of territory through a couple of its preemptive acts of aggression, effectively stealing land from various nations. If you want to make a case of Israel having a right to exist because it was there before, I'll make the case for Iran, formally known as the Persian Empire having rights to the bulk of the Middle East because it was formed prior to that of just about every other Middle Eastern nation, including Israel.

And guess what? Israel with its Judaism religion, the Arabs and Muslim religion of Islam and Christianity are all succession religions of an older religion known as Zoroastrianism.

By the way, you can thank the Assyrians for the destruction of ancient Israel.[/QUOTE]


Mad props to you for actually knowing the bold. So few do.

In general, there's alot to like in this post.

My general position is the situation sucks and we should have -never- intervened and formed Israel. Palestine is just a political pawn in the game of the Arabs to have a legitimate beef and source of antagonism towards Israel- they could care very little about the Palestinians otherwise.

Again, historically, might makes right. I don't feel too fondly about that, but what other cards are really on the table that reflect reality?

We really should back off and let Israel fix its own problem. We've created more than our fair share by sticking our nose in that region more than we should- granted, we have valid interests (stable flow of oil) but diminishing returns errywhere.

 

[Omar]

[QUOTE="MonkeyClaw, post: 6171560]
Ahhh, yes, I agree with you on that, even without the divine entity people will still argue and fight over what they believe is correct. People in general just need to learn to be more passive and not have the need to convert other people to their beliefs, let them choose on their own.[/QUOTE]we should but realistically, just like crime will never be zero and we don't expect it to be, there's no reason to believe that we'll ever be peaceful...if peace was supposed to completely dominate everything, we wouldn't have the "ability" to destroy and there'd be no death. i guess that goes for everything in the universes.

The one thing that pisses me off is to see parents pushing all their 'beliefs' onto their children and not letting the child figure stuff out for themselves, I refuse to push any beliefs onto my daughter, I don't in anyway push my atheist beliefs onto her...she is free to choose what ever suites her and makes her happy in life, but it is for her to figure out...

this the route I'm going. i don't want my children to be Muslim just because I'm Muslim. I'm struggling to put everything into perspective. in one way, i understand why there are restrictions there for us to follow, on the other hand, i don't feel things that religious people do. which is a totally different matter i think. maybe it's your state of mind that makes you feel a certain way.[QUOTE="Vulgotha, post: 6171566]Mad props to you for actually knowing the bold. So few do.

In general, there's alot to like in this post.

My general position is the situation sucks and we should have -never- intervened and formed Israel. Palestine is just a political pawn in the game of the Arabs to have a legitimate beef and source of antagonism towards Israel- they could care very little about the Palestinians otherwise.

Again, historically, might makes right. I don't feel too fondly about that, but what other cards are really on the table that reflect reality?

We really should back off and let Israel fix its own problem. We've created more than our fair share by sticking our nose in that region more than we should- granted, we have valid interests (stable flow of oil) but diminishing returns errywhere.[/QUOTE]
honestly it's not all arabs. i used to think all arabs were against israel. it would seem that way from the citizens and that is because we're sheep.

israel and sunnis (majority of arabs) now see their friendship as a means to oust the more powerful sect shia (powerful as in strength in military/resources if you look at their proportion).

it's all politics and we (sheep) are being fed this hatred by the few that actually make money off this.