The old framerate debacle.......

PS4freak

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#31
[QUOTE="Scheller, post: 6476713]I sometimes wish consoles had a framerate indicator like Fraps on PC. I definitely noticed something off with GTA, which is 30fps, but I started up AC: Unity and despite it being 30fps as well, I only really notice anything "off" when I'm doing a viewpoint (and it almost certainly dips below 30fps).[/QUOTE]
I think it's easiest to notice when you are panning the camera around. Like mentioned earlier there is sometimes bad tearing on 30 fps. That's why in shooters it's best to have because you constantly turn the camera.
 

PBM

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Nov 8, 2004
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#32
That's the easiest way to tell the difference between frame rates. There doesn't tend to be any screen tearing at 60 fps. When things dip below 30 it's horrid. 30 is fine as long as it's locked in.
 

XperienZ

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Aug 1, 2007
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#34
[QUOTE="PS4freak, post: 6476731]Yeah I don't have any problem with anything at 30 just as long as it doesn't slow bad.[/QUOTE]

Its definitely what developers need to realize... A poor game will be a poor game regardless of it being 30 or 60 fps - But a fantastic game that drops constantly below 30 could end up being just a good game when people start saying "if only the framerates were more stable...". I don't think it helps when some of the big publishers think that releasing a patch (even day one) to fix problems is okay, it just makes it feel like the game never received the love in the first place.
 

PS4freak

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#35
[QUOTE="XperienZ, post: 6476740]Its definitely what developers need to realize... A poor game will be a poor game regardless of it being 30 or 60 fps - But a fantastic game that drops constantly below 30 could end up being just a good game when people start saying "if only the framerates were more stable...". I don't think it helps when some of the big publishers think that releasing a patch (even day one) to fix problems is okay, it just makes it feel like the game never received the love in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I completely agree. Especially the part about the patches. Devs are using them more and more as a crutch. As for the unsteady frames it can be very annoying. I've played games where when explosions and stuff start happening it would slow closer to probably 10-15. That's just unacceptable. I mean look at Infamous SS. I thought that game was 60 fps because of the fact that when doing your special there was rarely any slow down if at all. It was minimal at worst. So I assumed it was just slightly dipping below 60 fps because it was so smooth with all much going on on the screen. I was wrong. When a dev can get something like that at 30 fps too run very smooth during very taxing moments, it doesn't look good when others games almost come to a halt.
 

TDbank24

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Jul 25, 2008
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#37
60fps doesn't make or break a game for me but if you can do it, then i'm all for it. Especially for online shooters. It makes a big difference. I'm playing Gears of War: Ultimate Edition on the Xbox One and the multiplayer is like a whole new game now that it's 60fps. It's butter smooth.
 

Bitbydeath

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Sep 10, 2005
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#38
Frame rate doesn't bother me, I've played GTA on consoles and while it can be annoying when it dips into the teens I wouldn't consider it as game breaking. I'd rather devs focus on everything else (inc graphics) before frame rates, a few seconds of slow down isn't a big deal for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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jlippone

Forum Guru
Dec 2, 2004
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#39
Most of the stable framerates are fine if game is calm, even 20 in some cases. (on 60hz monitor 60, 30, 20, 15 ..)
For fast paced games as high as possible and the input latency is really important as well.

In general graphics I really like clean stable graphics, which depending on art can mean either cheap or ridiculously costly. ;)

If one wants to have everything stable in motion it also means a proper wide enough AA resolve. (IE. gaussian, not box filter.)
one of the reasons why 4k will be nice. (smallest detail finally around 1080p and stable in motion.)
 
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Nerevar

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Aug 27, 2005
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#41
[QUOTE="Naxi, post: 6477366]Higher framerate helps gameplay, graphics do not. Unfortunately, graphics are better for marketing.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Good gameplay does not require good graphics, but graphics can definitely compliment the experience and gameplay in some situations.

Sneaking through the dark halls in a horror game is a good example. The real-time shadows and the realism of the graphics can really pull you in and immerse you, making the frights even more terrifying than they would be if the graphics were a lot less appealing.

When I play games like Titanfall or Battlefield 3 at max on my PC the graphics really do add to the feeling on intense war going on. The dust is blowing in the wind, the air is waving from the heat, an explosion from a downed helicopter shocks the screen with bloom and fire, a titan that's being hit by bullets and rockets from all sides is spewing shrapnel and smoke that's bouncing off the environment. I notice these little details and they really help add to the intensity (and thus experience) of the gameplay.
 

Naxi

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#42
[QUOTE="Nerevar, post: 6477402]I disagree. Good gameplay does not require good graphics, but graphics can definitely compliment the experience and gameplay in some situations.

Sneaking through the dark halls in a horror game is a good example. The real-time shadows and the realism of the graphics can really pull you in and immerse you, making the frights even more terrifying than they would be if the graphics were a lot less appealing.

When I play games like Titanfall or Battlefield 3 at max on my PC the graphics really do add to the feeling on intense war going on. The dust is blowing in the wind, the air is waving from the heat, an explosion from a downed helicopter shocks the screen with bloom and fire, a titan that's being hit by bullets and rockets from all sides is spewing shrapnel and smoke that's bouncing off the environment. I notice these little details and they really help add to the intensity (and thus experience) of the gameplay.[/QUOTE]Yes, it does help with immersion.
 

Nerevar

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#43
[QUOTE="Naxi, post: 6477413]Yes, it does help with immersion.[/QUOTE]

Gameplay, graphics, immersion, they're all things that work together to create the experience of the game. Ultimately you're not there for the gameplay, you're there for the game as a whole, and I'm just saying the right kind of graphics can influence and enhance what the gameplay has to offer. A game suffers if you lower the graphics, and in some ways that affects the gameplay too.
 

Naxi

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#44
[QUOTE="Nerevar, post: 6477419]Gameplay, graphics, immersion, they're all things that work together to create the experience of the game. Ultimately you're not there for the gameplay, you're there for the game as a whole, and I'm just saying the right kind of graphics can influence and enhance what the gameplay has to offer. A game suffers if you lower the graphics, and in some ways that affects the gameplay too.[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing otherwise, help might've not been the right word. I'm just saying framerate affects gameplay input. These consoles are capable of delivering on all fronts, and thankfully there are more games with higher framerate.
 
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K2D

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Oct 19, 2006
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#45
I played Fallout 3 with 20 fps. I don't know what the hell you're all talking about.. j/k

It all depends on the game though. In Fallout, I'd rather have max out graphics rather then frames per second. In a competitive shooter I'd trade all my graphics for as high a fps as possible. Because the gameplay is 100 percent dependent on me having perfect aim and awareness.
 

Bigdoggy

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#46
[QUOTE="Major, post: 6476456]How do you know what people can and can't see Bigdog? Some peoples eyes are not as good as others so it's not a case of people not being bothered about it. AR never said there is no difference, only that he couldn't see it. There should be nothing wrong with that statement at all. Stop sounding like an ass about it.

Not everyone who plays console or PC games get's a hard-on about frame rates and such things though clearly there's plenty here who do.[/QUOTE]

Saying "how do you know what people can and can't see" can be said for every single tiny winey arguement ever known to the existance of the universe, it's either that saying or a little tweak. Point being, it's bullshit, there is a difference so stop trying to cover it up. It's not like it's 60fps vs 59fps or 61fps. Lets get real here and stop trying dig more holes to fill up with "whatevers".

Also, if a person can't notice such a drastic difference then chances are they probably have some kind of eye problems that should be looked at. Just as people that can't see color, it's an eye problem. Again, if you or anyone else can't notice such a drastic framerate difference which would be 30fps vs 60fps, then you have some eye problems that you either already know about or should probably get it checked by an eye doctor because there is something clearly wrong. It's either those or the attention span is not good. point is, pay attention. Those differences of 30fps and 60fps don't bother me at all, I still enjoy the game.
 
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K2D

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Oct 19, 2006
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#47
[QUOTE="Bigdoggy, post: 6477524]Saying "how do you know what people can and can't see" can be said for every single tiny winey arguement ever known to the existance of the universe, it's either that saying or a little tweak. Point being, it's bullshit, there is a difference so stop trying to cover it up. It's not like it's 60fps vs 59fps or 61fps. Lets get real here and stop trying dig more holes to fill up with "whatevers".

Also, if a person can't notice such a drastic difference then chances are they probably have some kind of eye problems that should be looked at. Just as people that can't see color, it's an eye problem. Again, if you or anyone else can't notice such a drastic framerate difference which would be 30fps vs 60fps, then you have some eye problems that you either already know about or should probably get it checked by an eye doctor because there is something clearly wrong. It's either those or the attention span is not good. point is, pay attention. Those differences of 30fps and 60fps don't bother me at all, I still enjoy the game.[/QUOTE]
You can't trick the eyes but you can trick the brain. Welcome in through the looking glass.
 

Major

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Apr 10, 2014
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#48
[QUOTE="Bigdoggy, post: 6477524]Point being, it's bullshit, there is a difference so stop trying to cover it up.... Lets get real here and stop trying dig more holes to fill up with "whatevers". [/quote]
There was no attempt at a cover up. This is not a conspiracy. No-one was trying to say red is in fact blue except you. Calling someone a liar for not seeing the difference was a bit over the top from you and that was my point but you couldn't see that either.
:rolleyes:
 

PS4freak

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#49
[QUOTE="Bigdoggy, post: 6477524]Saying "how do you know what people can and can't see" can be said for every single tiny winey arguement ever known to the existance of the universe, it's either that saying or a little tweak. Point being, it's bullshit, there is a difference so stop trying to cover it up. It's not like it's 60fps vs 59fps or 61fps. Lets get real here and stop trying dig more holes to fill up with "whatevers".

Also, if a person can't notice such a drastic difference then chances are they probably have some kind of eye problems that should be looked at. Just as people that can't see color, it's an eye problem. Again, if you or anyone else can't notice such a drastic framerate difference which would be 30fps vs 60fps, then you have some eye problems that you either already know about or should probably get it checked by an eye doctor because there is something clearly wrong. It's either those or the attention span is not good. point is, pay attention. Those differences of 30fps and 60fps don't bother me at all, I still enjoy the game.[/QUOTE]

Dude you are going really hard with this. I don't think anyone is arguing you can't see a difference but more or less being able to easily tell a game is 30 fps or 60 fps. If you threw multiple game in front of me and asked for the fps I probably couldn't tell you much more than half accurately. But if you had the two versions of the game playing I'd definitely be able to tell. Multiple people have said that they thought certain games were either 60 and 30 but yet they were wrong. I believe when people are saying they can't see a difference is basically saying they can't tell either way without knowing if it's 30 fps or 60 fps. But in comparison it's very easy to tell.
 
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Bitbydeath

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#50
[QUOTE="K2D, post: 6477515]In a competitive shooter I'd trade all my graphics for as high a fps as possible. Because the gameplay is 100 percent dependent on me having perfect aim and awareness.[/QUOTE]

How did Halo get so popular as a competitive shooter with its peasant like 30FPS?
 

K2D

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Oct 19, 2006
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#51
[QUOTE="Bitbydeath, post: 6477635]How did Halo get so popular as a competitive shooter with its peasant like 30FPS?[/QUOTE]
What does Halo have to do with my comment? I don't play Halo. I play pc twitchshooters and RTS's. Twitchshooters are one 100 percent dependent on framerate and latency. RTS's are dependent on fps not crawling down to the single digits when shit goes down.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, 30 fps is probably plenty for Halo. You have to choose between 30 and 60 on console, so I'm sure Halo's 30 fps is rock solid.
 
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Bigdoggy

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#52
[QUOTE="PS4freak, post: 6477596]Dude you are going really hard with this. I don't think anyone is arguing you can't see a difference but more or less being able to easily tell a game is 30 fps or 60 fps. If you threw multiple game in front of me and asked for the fps I probably couldn't tell you much more than half accurately. But if you had the two versions of the game playing I'd definitely be able to tell. Multiple people have said that they thought certain games were either 60 and 30 but yet they were wrong. I believe when people are saying they can't see a difference is basically saying they can't tell either way without knowing if it's 30 fps or 60 fps. But in comparison it's very easy to tell.[/QUOTE]

You almost have to on these forums man, I've been on here a long time and so have you, we both know this. lol

Actually they are arguing that you can't see the difference, that's how this started out with me in the first place. They can argue all they want until they turn blue about not seeing a difference and it isn't going to change my mind. The saying "you can't see through their eye's so how do you know" really doesn't hold any value with me in this discussion which is what some are trying to do.

The brain is what controls all of this through the eye's. If someone can't see fast motion smoothly, then their brain is quite slow, in fact there could be some neurological problem or explaination because it's certain not a normal thing for the brain and eye's. One thing that the majority or most people do have in common is that their brain deals with fast motion smoothly, this is why 60fps is so smooth, a human brain is meant to deal with this. I would have to say that if your brain is slow enough to where it can't even see the difference in 30 and 60fps, not only is it a neurological problem, but that person wouldn't get into the airforce, military, or anything because that slow of a function would be noticeable. This is why I'm going at it so harshly, because to me, it's bogus.

If you put both side by side, then you can definitely see the difference, but if you play lets say battlefield at 30fps, then decide the next day you're going to play battlefield on another system that is 60fps, you will still be able to tell the difference.

Now if you play lets say one game at 30fps, then pop in a completely different game that is 60fps, then yes, you may not see the difference in that since the motion is different in the game, but if you pay attention to what 60fps really is, you will most likely people able to say "these games run at 30fps while those games run at 60fps". Some people pay more attention to the framerate than others.
 
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Fijiandoce

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#53
I think you're taking the usage of "see" very literally.

I'm assuming on the part of the argument that people instead mean 'Perceive'. The fact they can "see" the screen in fact validates that they are capable of 'seeing' perfectly fine.
 
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#54
Here is Ridge Racer Hi-Spec demo (aka Ridge Racer Turbo) on the original PlayStation. 60FPS. This was included on the bonus disc that came with R4: Ridge Racer Type 4 in 1998/1999.

[video=youtube;koBLZhQxpos]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koBLZhQxpos[/video]
(Make sure video is set to 60fps in quality settings^)
vs
Classic PS1 RR - 30 FPS - 1994/1995
[video=youtube;WLJqWtnFkdY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLJqWtnFkdY[/video]
vs
original Ridge Racer arcade version on the Namco System 22 board - 60FPS - 1993
[video=youtube;xQ7eUL7hTZA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ7eUL7hTZA[/video]
set to 60fps ^

Who can or cannot tell the difference in framerate
 
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Teetie

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May 2, 2015
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#55
The framerate thing can certainly be overdone. I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as someone like Totalbiscuit in saying that 60 fps is always superior. It's technically true I guess. But that difference between 30fps and 60fps just shrinks into meaninglessness in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics. In a game like that, developers should put 60fps as a very low priority.
 

Omar

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May 29, 2005
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#56
[QUOTE="ArnoldRimmer, post: 6476386]There always seems to be a focus, especially this gen, on the framerate games operate on; 60fps, 30fps, locked, unlocked etc etc. It is becoming the norm on some forums (not this one fortunately) to see comments along the lines of 'the games not 1080p and 60fps, I'm not bothering'.

Just thought I'd throw it out there as I'm curious on others opinions of just how important 60fps is in gaming. Personally I honestly can't tell the difference between 60 or 30, am I alone in this?[/QUOTE]
that's the problem, you can't tell the difference. /thread

if you could tell the difference and disagree then we'd have a real discussion. if you can't tell, there's no discussion. same goes for anyone else who states this in this thread.

and yes 60fps is extremely important. in every way. i have lost interest in games (GTA5) due to frame rate not being 60fps. it resolves a lot of controlling issues.

[QUOTE="Teetie, post: 6477938]The framerate thing can certainly be overdone. I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as someone like Totalbiscuit in saying that 60 fps is always superior. It's technically true I guess. But that difference between 30fps and 60fps just shrinks into meaninglessness in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics. In a game like that, developers should put 60fps as a very low priority.[/QUOTE]
FF tactics is 2D right? yeah that's 60fps. you wouldn't be able to handle 2D animation if it were anything less than 60fps.
 

Varsh

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#57
[QUOTE="parallax scroll, post: 6477934]Here is Ridge Racer Hi-Spec demo (aka Ridge Racer Turbo) on the original PlayStation. 60FPS. This was included on the bonus disc that came with R4: Ridge Racer Type 4 in 1998/1999.

*snip*

Who can or cannot tell the difference in framerate[/QUOTE]

While you can easily notice the difference in fluidity, you can't notice the actual framerate difference because all of those videos are running at 30FPS. YouTube have only given 60FPS video recently and if you put the comparisons side by side then you'll see the difference.

Now here's an example where you can notice a massive difference between 30FPS and 60FPS - The Last of Us. The game feels completely different at 60FPS plus the controls are a lot more responsive and more.
 

Fijiandoce

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#58
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6477940]and yes 60fps is extremely important. in every way. i have lost interest in games (GTA5) due to frame rate not being 60fps. it resolves a lot of controlling issues.[/QUOTE]
This is your opinion. Not in any way factual. Though it does beg the question: If you care so much for 60fps gaming, why do you still game on console? Even more pertinent, why do you bring up "controlling issues" on something as laborious as a controller with analogue sticks?

I don't buy for a second that 60fps in some way enriches my enjoyment, or is "externally important", when playing a game of chess on a PC that can put out 60+fps with no sweat.

Before anybody would like to imply that i don't know what 60fps looks like
My PC, frame-rates in bottom left corner (note that the frame-rate is being limited through the drivers)


Frame-rate arguments are farcical imho. For those who honestly don't give two damns for bigger numbers, 30fps serves its purpose just fine when you consider the trade-off is extra visual feedback.
 

Lethal

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#59
Most games that are only running at 30fps, do it just fine.

The Last of Us and Uncharted are perfect examples of games running just fine at that frame rate. And many people can not tell what the frame rate is in a game unless they have something to compare it to.

Competitive online FPS gaming is a different story however. I think most people can immediately tell the difference when you are actually needing the extra frame rate for clarity and precision.
 

Varsh

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#60
For anything competitive a high framerate is, like you said, a must. It's the difference between seeing an enemy and shooting first or dying without seeing anyone kill you. I remember back in the days of Unreal Tournament where people used to turn all the effects off and play the game at 200+ FPS just to gain an advantage - it actually worked which is why people did it.

Having said that, a stable framerate equal to or more than the display's refresh rate is the second most important, but it's all based on the type of game you're playing.