The old framerate debacle.......

Fijiandoce

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#61
I didn't add it to my post because im a lazy arse, but i agree with the competitive gaming requiring high FPS.

I will add, that devs usually know what their game falls into and will subsequently design their game around that. I can't imagine CS:GO running at anything short of 60 for example.
 

Omar

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#62
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6477944]This is your opinion. Not in any way factual.[/quote]it is factual because the response time goes up each frame, you should know this, i thought you were involved in game devleopment. the actual lag in response goes down twice as much.

Though it does beg the question: If you care so much for 60fps gaming, why do you still game on console?
consoles can have 60fps and they have been for quite a while, you're saying as if this isn't possible on consoles. before 60fps was very rare and almost impossible, however i didn't know that it would make such a big difference in response times. so now i'm a pretty big fan of it. same goes for resolution.

Even more pertinent, why do you bring up "controlling issues" on something as laborious as a controller with analogue sticks?
because i'm not talking about controlling issues as in, the method of controlling, i'm talking about the lag that comes from the lower the frame rate is. every played a game at 15fps? how about 10?

I don't buy for a second that 60fps in some way enriches my enjoyment, or is "externally important", when playing a game of chess on a PC that can put out 60+fps with no sweat.
that's because i never said that it would do that for every game. in 2D animation, you need 60fps for sure. for games that require response time, you need 60fps, it's fine on 30fps...especially if the game isn't competitive...but it matters a lot if it's competitive. look at TLOU as an example, you can switch between 60fps and 30fps. try to play against others for a day at 30fps then switch to 60fps. come back with results.

Before anybody would like to imply that i don't know what 60fps looks like
My PC, frame-rates in bottom left corner (note that the frame-rate is being limited through the drivers)


Frame-rate arguments are farcical imho. For those who honestly don't give two damns for bigger numbers, 30fps serves its purpose just fine when you consider the trade-off is extra visual feedback.
yeah you know the difference, you just don't play competitively online, otherwise you wouldn't be saying that you don't care.
 
Dec 4, 2008
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#63
[QUOTE="Varsh, post: 6477943]While you can easily notice the difference in fluidity, you can't notice the actual framerate difference because all of those videos are running at 30FPS. YouTube have only given 60FPS video recently and if you put the comparisons side by side then you'll see the difference.
[/QUOTE]

Didn't you notice the first and last videos can be (and need to be) set to 60fps?
They were uploaded November 2014, around the time YouTube started having 60fps videos.
 

Fijiandoce

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#64
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6477951]it is factual because the response time goes up each frame, you should know this, i thought you were involved in game devleopment. the actual lag in response goes down twice as much.[/quote]
Even you point out it isn't:
that's because i never said that it would do that for every game. in 2D animation, you need 60fps for sure. for games that require response time, you need 60fps, it's fine on 30fps...especially if the game isn't competitive
also, im not involved in game design. I only know what i know from reading mynd, Varsh and co's posts. The understanding of, isn't hard.

Varsh is involved with actual game development, aren't you varsh? ;)

[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6477951]yeah you know the difference, you just don't play competitively online, otherwise you wouldn't be saying that you don't care.[/QUOTE]
But what is wrong with me (or anyone) not caring about the frame-rate if all we're going to do is play through the single player game and enjoy that experience. Or even in the case of some online games, play the game just to mess about with mates?

Not every person who plays games does it to be competitive.

I will admit, would it be nice if all games ran at 60fps? Sure. But realistically, am i gunna get hung up on it? Not even in the slightest.
 

Omar

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#65
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6477956]Even you point out it isn't:[/QUOTE]no, i said, it may not "matter" as much in certain games. i didn't say that it wouldn't help. 60fps would "always" help, a game of chess...maybe not so much because you're not constantly controlling anything. but even that would run more fluid at 60fps than 30fps. i will guarantee you that just about all chess games run at 60fps just because they don't require a lot of graphics and it would suck waiting for the 30fps animations to take their course.

also, im not involved in game design. I only know what i know from reading mynd, Varsh and co's posts. The understanding of, isn't hard.

Varsh is involved with actual game development, aren't you varsh? ;)
ask him ;)

But what is wrong with me (or anyone) not caring about the frame-rate if all we're going to do is play through the single player game and enjoy that experience. Or even in the case of some online games, play the game just to mess about with mates?
nothing wrong with that, but don't deny it doesn't help. and if you don't know, then make sure you know before you disagree. i have played 30fps and 60fps games extensively (note: same version of the games) and there is a very significant change in controls going from 30fps to 60fps. i have quite a bit of experience with this. I played BF4 on the PS3 (which barely ran at 30fps) and now I own the game on the PS4, it matters a whole lot. pretty much game-breaking if you care about response times.

I've noticed that people who don't normally care, also tend to not know if it makes a difference. meaning lack of experience with it.

Not every person who plays games does it to be competitive.

I will admit, would it be nice if all games ran at 60fps? Sure. But realistically, am i gunna get hung up on it? Not even in the slightest.
i'm not either, i'm ok with UC4 being 30fps just because i'm not playing that game to compete. i probably won't touch the online and if i do, likely won't for long. but if i were interested, i'd want it to be 60fps. there's a reason why KZ:SF was 60fps online even if they couldn't retain true 1080p. they know it matters. (but kept 30fps in single player, even though i actually didn't like the game at 30fps, something about their technique that made the 30fps noticeable, think it wasn't stable).
 
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Omar

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#67
i think they might go for 60fps with the MP (EDIT: just realized that's what you said lol) but likely not the single player. those graphics are too good for 60fps imo. maybe we can get close to those in the future but still doubtful.

but yeah, that wasn't on point. point is, yes, because it matters in competition, it would make sense to go 60fps and reduce the graphics a bit.
 

YoungMullah88

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#68
The graphics will already be taking a hit in the online portion so why not go all out and make it 60fps? I think ND made the right decision in that aspect, after playing tlou mp and trying the ps3 version , I couldn't do it

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Fijiandoce

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#69
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6477958]no, i said, it may not "matter" as much in certain games. i didn't say that it wouldn't help. 60fps would "always" help, a game of chess...maybe not so much because you're not constantly controlling anything. but even that would run more fluid at 60fps than 30fps. i will guarantee you that just about all chess games run at 60fps just because they don't require a lot of graphics and it would suck waiting for the 30fps animations to take their course.[/quote]
Firstly, this is a load of rubbish just FYI. 60fps will not help you in chess. If you think it does, you're playing the lowest of the lowest difficulty settings and like the tapping sound the pieces make as they move around the board.

Chess is played many moves ahead. What something does on-screen matters little. Whether it be at 20fps, or even 15fps, you aren't going to care in the slightest so long as your opponents moves get conveyed to you; to that end, 1 fps would serve its purpose.

[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6477958]nothing wrong with that, but don't deny it doesn't help. and if you don't know, then make sure you know before you disagree. i have played 30fps and 60fps games extensively (note: same version of the games) and there is a very significant change in controls going from 30fps to 60fps. i have quite a bit of experience with this. I played BF4 on the PS3 (which barely ran at 30fps) and now I own the game on the PS4, it matters a whole lot. pretty much game-breaking if you care about response times.

I've noticed that people who don't normally care, also tend to not know if it makes a difference. meaning lack of experience with it.[/QUOTE]
You saw the screenshot from my PC above yes? 120fps.... If you want to play that game then 60fps is decidedly peasant o_O
Also, on my PC that can do 120fps+ i don't mind playing games at 30fps. I really don't care.

As i posted above, frame-rates are a matter of perception. And perception is determined by a number of variables. To state so unequivocally that it's 60fps or bust is not only wrong, but plain asinine.

You can't use yourself as a measure for what games should be like. If you want 60fps all the time, as i said, play on a PC. For people who play consoles to slip a disc in and start having fun with friends, or engaging in a games story, they don't really care - Because they didn't put the disk in to watch the number of screen updates per second.
 

Varsh

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#70
[QUOTE="parallax scroll, post: 6477952]Didn't you notice the first and last videos can be (and need to be) set to 60fps?
They were uploaded November 2014, around the time YouTube started having 60fps videos.[/QUOTE]

Ahahaha OK you got me there, I had to set it. Once I did that the difference was like night and day.
 

Omar

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#71
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6477969]Firstly, this is a load of rubbish just FYI. 60fps will not help you in chess. If you think it does, you're playing the lowest of the lowest difficulty settings and like the tapping sound the pieces make as they move around the board.

Chess is played many moves ahead. What something does on-screen matters little. Whether it be at 20fps, or even 15fps, you aren't going to care in the slightest so long as your opponents moves get conveyed to you; to that end, 1 fps would serve its purpose.[/QUOTE]lol didn't state any of what you said but all i said was that the animations would be annoying. and yes, they would be far more annoying at 15fps. it doesn't affect gameplay, i know that, i already stated it lol. it would just be slow as hell.

You saw the screenshot from my PC above yes? 120fps.... If you want to play that game then 60fps is decidedly peasant o_O
Also, on my PC that can do 120fps+ i don't mind playing games at 30fps. I really don't care.
we're not talking about what you care for or not. and i think the benefit for controls especially would be larger going from 30fps to 60fps than 60fps to 120fps however i haven't experience enough of 120fps to make this distinction. what i will say thought is that 60fps seems very responsive for the time being.

As i posted above, frame-rates are a matter of perception. And perception is determined by a number of variables. To state so unequivocally that it's 60fps or bust is not only wrong, but plain asinine.
for competitive games, yes. it is a bust. when i said, experience, i mean, actual multiplayer experience where you play a game at 30fps long enough and then experience the same game at 60fps, show us how well you're doing with both settings and then if you disagree, i can take your feedback but i'd definitely like to analyze your video to see how well your response times were playing these competitive games on the two settings. that's what i mean when i say, find out before disagree.

what you're talking about again, like i said earlier, it depends on what a person cares about. people were fine with 30fps last gen, i'm "fine" with it as well. but now that i have experienced 60fps and its responsiveness in competitive online games, i find 30fps to be only suited for SP games and games that do not require response times.

GTA5 imo should've been 60fps even in SP (especially MP), it's just too slow...because the character movements are slow to begin with.

You can't use yourself as a measure for what games should be like. If you want 60fps all the time, as i said, play on a PC.
well i'm doing fine for the moment, there are plenty of 60fps games on the PS4 and developers are smart to keep MP portion of the game 60fps. so i'm ok. i'm not going to make a huge shift just for this problem. i'll continue to fight for it and inform people however. i'm not saying ALL games should be 60fps (although if possible i would like that), but some games definitely benefit a lot from it. again, why developers are specifically reacting to this. and this isn't just me...the response time difference can be factually proven. it's whether you care or not. i do, you don't. simple as that. it doesn't change the fact that any game would respond better at 60fps than 30fps.

For people who play consoles to slip a disc in and start having fun with friends, or engaging in a games story, they don't really care - Because they didn't put the disk in to watch the number of screen updates per second.
it's not like that anymore sir. technology is increasing and people want more. and we are getting more. consoles aren't simple anymore. they're quite complicated however still retain their core competencies of being convenient. sometimes they need a bit of work around and improvements but for the most part, they are far more convenient than PCs. i also like/prefer closed box development than open box and that will never change.

for the last comment in there, yes, you're right, most people probably wouldn't care one way or another even if it helps, they wouldn't know why it does. do you ever wonder why COD was so popular on consoles? on top of bringing evolution to the FPS genre, it was one of the only games on PS3/360 that were 60fps online, THE ONLY game on last-gen consoles that had incredibly smooth controls. care to make a connection to all of it?

so yeah, like i said earlier in this post, it's a matter of whether you care or not, doesn't change the fact that it helps. again, developers wouldn't care if it didn't help and would continue to make 30fps MP games. UC4 (like someone said), is being targeted for 60fps in MP, why do you think that is?
 
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Dec 4, 2008
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#72
[QUOTE="Varsh, post: 6477980]Ahahaha OK you got me there, I had to set it. Once I did that the difference was like night and day.[/QUOTE]

Heh, I went ahead an edited in notes to remind people to set those to 60fps. I usually do make sure to note if a video can be switched to 60fps. It's been almost a year since we've had 60fps YT videos so I figured in a thread like this people would do this by habit.
 

Bitbydeath

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#73
[QUOTE="K2D, post: 6477910]What does Halo have to do with my comment? I don't play Halo. I play pc twitchshooters and RTS's. Twitchshooters are one 100 percent dependent on framerate and latency. RTS's are dependent on fps not crawling down to the single digits when $#@! goes down.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, 30 fps is probably plenty for Halo. You have to choose between 30 and 60 on console, so I'm sure Halo's 30 fps is rock solid.[/QUOTE]

RTS games don't need high frame rates though. So anything outside of a twitch shooter is fine at 30fps right?


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Omar

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#74
[QUOTE="Bitbydeath, post: 6478012]RTS games don't need high frame rates though. So anything outside of a twitch shooter is fine at 30fps right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
of course they do, you can manage everything faster when it's 60fps. all RTS on PS4 are 60fps as far as i know.
 

Bitbydeath

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#75
[QUOTE="Omar, post: 6478015]of course they do, you can manage everything faster when it's 60fps. all RTS on PS4 are 60fps as far as i know.[/QUOTE]

Why bother managing everything faster when you can have better graphics though?





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K2D

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Oct 19, 2006
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#76
[QUOTE="Bitbydeath, post: 6478012]RTS games don't need high frame rates though. So anything outside of a twitch shooter is fine at 30fps right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
Have you played Starcraft? If you have fps in the 30s overall in the game, the framerate WILL fall during Terran wall clashes. You prone to lose if that happens.

Will I take 30 fps in all other instances? It's a give and take situation.
 

rene2kx

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#77
I'll abandon console gaming next generation if 60 fps does not become the norm with the playstation 5/xbox 4. I'll invest money in a new gaming rig so i can do 100 fps+ for games. I can easily tell the difference between 30 fps and 60 fps having a controller or kb/m in my hand. Watching a gameplay vid it isn't as apparent, but when playing yeah i can easily spot the difference.
 

Omar

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#79
[QUOTE="SolidSnake, post: 6479773]60 better than 30
120 better than 60
If you disagree you are wrong.[/QUOTE]
yes but i think the most benefit comes going from 30 to 60 rather than 60 to 120.
 

Bitbydeath

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#80
[QUOTE="K2D, post: 6478140]Have you played Starcraft? If you have fps in the 30s overall in the game, the framerate WILL fall during Terran wall clashes. You prone to lose if that happens.

Will I take 30 fps in all other instances? It's a give and take situation.[/QUOTE]

Haven't played Starcraft, not a fan of sci-fi stuff.