Why China is Bad for the Global Economy

Inzane2050

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Jun 27, 2011
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#1
http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/08/nokia-ends-european-mexico-production/

SOURCE said:
"Nokia's wielding another axe to its operations, cleaving away a further 4,000 employees from its operations in Finland, Hungary and Mexico. It follows a shedding of roughly 10,000 employees and a troubled withdrawal from Romania as the company pushes more operations towards Asia in an attempt to compete with its competitors. Whilst no more phones will be assembled in Europe, the company isn't closing the facilities outright, they'll be retained for "high value activities" (presumably R&D and other big-ticket projects). Whatever comes of Steven Elop's reign of the world's number one handset maker, it's clear to see that he's got a plan and he's sticking to it.Update: Nokia got in touch to clarify that the factory in Manaus, Brazil is unaffected by these cuts. The three factories mentioned (in Salo, Reynosa and Komarom) will furthermore be used for the software-portion of production, including installing carrier-and-region-specific features in the Americas, Europe and Eurasia. Hardware assembly will now take place at the company's existing facilities in Beijing (China) and Masan (South Korea).

Nokia ends European, Mexican production: it's all Asia now (Updated) originally appeared on Engadget on Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:37:00 EST. Please see our terms for use of feeds.Permalink | Email this | Comments"

-Sent from WP7 News for Windows Phone 7

Sent from my Windows Phone
China's economic strategy is forcefully monopolizing the production and manufacturing of the world's goods. If only China could be sued for misconduct of commerce, it would be all too pleasing...
 

btbam

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Jan 28, 2011
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The Moor
#3
It's good for the global economy because it fills a legitimate function. I think what you mean to say is it is bad for certain actors in the global economy. It's all because china set up the SEZs. Basically a safe haven for foreign investors who want low to no taxes and no labor laws. It's unfair true, but U.S. doesn't exactly play fair either in certain aspects. Simple solution if you don't like it, don't patron chinese made goods.
 

spyrde

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Feb 18, 2009
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#4
[QUOTE="btbam, post: 5777947]It's good for the global economy because it fills a legitimate function. I think what you mean to say is it is bad for certain actors in the global economy. It's all because china set up the SEZs. Basically a safe haven for foreign investors who want low to no taxes and no labor laws. It's unfair true, but U.S. doesn't exactly play fair either in certain aspects. Simple solution if you don't like it, don't patron chinese made goods.[/QUOTE]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha
 

Inzane2050

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Jun 27, 2011
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#5
It's not good for the global economy in any sense of the word. No one can go outside of China and still compete with the rest of the world without bankrupting themselves. Practically everything with a battery is from China so how exactly would you boycott something like that? You simply can't unless you plan to live in the Dark Ages. China is cheating and doing things like superficially under-inflating their dollar to get ahead as well as underminding the welfare of its own struggling citizens to do so. China's elites are profiting off of our expense and the expense of their own starving people.
 
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Cyklops

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Aug 19, 2008
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#7
From their (Chinese) point of view, they're doing whatever they can to make their country prosperous and emergent. From the rest of our points of view, we are screwed if this continues.
 

Tutankhamun

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Aug 2, 2006
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#8
[QUOTE="btbam, post: 5777947]It's good for the global economy because it fills a legitimate function. I think what you mean to say is it is bad for certain actors in the global economy. It's all because china set up the SEZs. Basically a safe haven for foreign investors who want low to no taxes and no labor laws. It's unfair true, but U.S. doesn't exactly play fair either in certain aspects. Simple solution if you don't like it, don't patron chinese made goods.[/QUOTE]

Bingo. China does not play under the same book as the West therefor they try to pin China down as a problem that needs solving. The powers at be don't like being undercut by any economy that they don't control themselves. Painting China as a problem is just preparing the masses for a U.S/UN - China war. Long live the military industrial complex....
 

Bigdoggy

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Jan 24, 2008
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#9
none of this is the fault of China, none of it. This fault relies heavily on the USA within the USA. If I can get an Italian Sofa that was made in china but with Italian leather and wood as well as frame and everything on it and it being cheaper then a Sofa made in the USA that costs $5,000, who's fault is it really that, that china made sofa is cheaper? of course, it's USA and the companies within the USA that are greedy swines that want more money for themselves and less for everyone else.

You got Taxes being increased, you have tax money paid back but after it's paid back the taxes take an increase. Honestly, the fact people blame china is because either.

A) they work for a USA corporation that is getting outsold by a Chinese corporation

B) they are sheep and don't know any better, thinking USA is top quality is really bs to begin with and also those people are at fault for buying into such nonsense.

C) it is both A & B.
 

btbam

Super Elite
Jan 28, 2011
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The Moor
#10
[QUOTE="Inzane2050, post: 5777969]It's not good for the global economy in any sense of the word. No one can go outside of China and still compete with the rest of the world without bankrupting themselves. Practically everything with a battery is from China so how exactly would you boycott something like that? You simply can't unless you plan to live in the Dark Ages. China is cheating and doing things like superficially under-inflating their dollar to get ahead as well as underminding the welfare of its own struggling citizens to do so. China's elites are profiting off of our expense and the expense of their own starving people.[/QUOTE]

You don't like china, but not enough to stop buying from them. I know china doesn't play fair, I already aknowledged that, but they are a soverign nation and have the right to do so. The point I was trying to make is the u.s. Doesn't exactly play fair either. As for exploiting their citizens, look up a book called "what china thinks" it's basically an attempt to explain the Chinese worldview from their perspective relying on modern Chinese academics. China has always defined human rights in economic terms while the west defines them in social terms. I don't agree how they treat their citizens is good, but within their worldview, they are promoting human rights.
 

Inzane2050

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Jun 27, 2011
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#11
It has nothing to do with the bill of materials. No one can afford to have their goods make elsewhere and still hope to compete with those still relying on China for assembly. And that is bcuz China's greedy elites deliberately under-valued its dollar and enslaved the common people to do their dirty work for mere scraps. It's modern-day slavery. You should see the suicide rate in China. I don't see how anyone can support slavery simply bcuz it involves a different country; that sounds very selfish and conceded to only care about the people here in America and not elsewhere.
 
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May 23, 2005
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#12
[QUOTE="Inzane2050, post: 5778140]It has nothing to do with the bill of materials. No one can afford to have their goods make elsewhere and still hope to compete with those still relying on China for assembly. And that is bcuz China's greedy elites deliberately under-valued its dollar and enslaved the common people to do their dirty work for mere scraps. It's modern-day slavery. You should see the suicide rate in China. I don't see how anyone can support slavery simply bcuz it involves a different country; that sounds very selfish and conceded to only care about the people here in America and not elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Jon Stewart on FOXCON


[video=youtube;meTtNnEo4-8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meTtNnEo4-8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL343CF84B730BCF5A[/video]
 

Tutankhamun

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Aug 2, 2006
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#13
Let's remember, factory workers in China often leave behind a life of extreme poverty in a village or a life of prostitution. For them working at manufacturing plants is better than the alternatives.
 

Bigdoggy

Master Guru
Jan 24, 2008
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#15
what this discussion is going to turn to is the federal which does play a huge roll in why people are buying products made in China. I have yet to see a corporation based in America actually give a reasonable price for anything even as small as a bar of soap for pete sakes. The prices factor has everything to do with everything.

It's like I said, a couch made in America and sold in America costs a lot of money. I went to a furniture store that just sells "Made in the USA" furniture. Not one couch/sofa was under $1000. The sofas went anywhere from $3,000 on up to $9000, it was pathetic and guess what, that store is no longer in business and it's not China's fault, it's American business as well as the federal for causing all this inflation in the first place.

this is what these American businesses say....

"don't buy chinese products, support America by buying American products" then they put a 300% to 500% mark up on the products. The american way is selling a couch/sofa worth $900 and adding 500% to that making it $4,500. That is the true American way. in this case the fault relies on American Companies and I am sure European countries are really no different.

As with England, buying something as small as a tea set that is made in England probably has a 300% to 500% markup on it. LOL

I firmly believe that if the federal never existed in the first place, a steak dinner would still cost 15cents. But again, a low business employee wouldn't be making $250 a week, but it would be balanced. the Dollar would still be worth a lot, the chinese factor would be non-existant today.
 
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btbam

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Jan 28, 2011
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#17
[QUOTE="Inzane2050, post: 5778140]It has nothing to do with the bill of materials. No one can afford to have their goods make elsewhere and still hope to compete with those still relying on China for assembly. And that is bcuz China's greedy elites deliberately under-valued its dollar and enslaved the common people to do their dirty work for mere scraps. It's modern-day slavery. You should see the suicide rate in China. I don't see how anyone can support slavery simply bcuz it involves a different country; that sounds very selfish and conceded to only care about the people here in America and not elsewhere.[/QUOTE]


I never said i support slavery, you are making assumptions, and assumptions i do not take to kindly. Its not slavery, they are paid an ammount that actually fairs well in China. China does keep the yuan artifically low, but the U.S. has done the same thing in the past. Everytime the U.S. might pressure China about political dissidents or free speech, you know what they say to us? What about Gitmo. Fact is, U.S. cannot critisize China from a point of legitimacy until we ensure the civil rights within our own boarders. You also reference suicide rates. I looked it up. According to the CDC, its roughly 22 for every 100,000 people. It sucks that China is practicing the way it does, but its the nature of capitalism. U.S. will fall behind if we don't create an environment conducive to business. Instead of fixing our own problem, it is easy to wave our finger at China.
 

Inzane2050

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Jun 27, 2011
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#18
[QUOTE="btbam, post: 5778327]I never said i support slavery, you are making assumptions, and assumptions i do not take to kindly. Its not slavery, they are paid an ammount that actually fairs well in China. China does keep the yuan artifically low, but the U.S. has done the same thing in the past. Everytime the U.S. might pressure China about political dissidents or free speech, you know what they say to us? What about Gitmo. Fact is, U.S. cannot critisize China from a point of legitimacy until we ensure the civil rights within our own boarders. You also reference suicide rates. I looked it up. According to the CDC, its roughly 22 for every 100,000 people. It sucks that China is practicing the way it does, but its the nature of capitalism. U.S. will fall behind if we don't create an environment conducive to business. Instead of fixing our own problem, it is easy to wave our finger at China.[/QUOTE]
It does not fair well at all in China. The money the Chinese make at places like Foxconn is equivalent to making $1/hour in America. It's slavery. The lower class of the Chinese people cannot afford to do anything but exist. And the suicide rate is terrifying. And so you have an idea of what it's really like for the lower class:
[video=youtube;meTtNnEo4-8][http://youtube.com/watch?v=meTtNnEo4-8[/video]
 

btbam

Super Elite
Jan 28, 2011
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The Moor
#19
[QUOTE="Inzane2050, post: 5778336]It does not fair well at all in China. The money the Chinese make at places like Foxconn is equivalent to making $1/hour in America. It's slavery. The lower class of the Chinese people cannot afford to do anything but exist. And the suicide rate is terrifying. And so you have an idea of what it's really like for the lower class:
[video=youtube;meTtNnEo4-8][http://youtube.com/watch?v=meTtNnEo4-8[/video][/QUOTE]

22 people per 100,000 is nt a terrifying statistic. Honestly the U.S. rate is 11 out of 100,000. To me that does not represent much of a difference. They can't afford to do anything but exist. If it wasn't for that job, they would have starved or been sold into prostitutin, which is REAL slavery. John Stewart is a clown, its not real news no matter what you might want it to be. Come back with credible sources and then we can have a real coversation.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#20
We are all witnessing the success of totalitarian socialism over democratic capitalism. Ideologically, the Chinese government is communist but the chinese have been mostly capitalist for almost 3 thousand years, after all, they invented paper money, so they are closer to being socialist than communist.

The chinese have been publishing a 5 year plan since 1947. The capitalist west has no plans, just total chaos. The west is mired in democratically elected governments with incompetent leadership, put into office by a populace that is largely incompetent themselves.

So many people wonder why our elected governments are so bad. They only need to look in the mirror for the source of the problem. The chinese party, there is only one, just appoint a premier from within the party about every 5 years. So far, these leaders have been visionaries that are very far sighted, instead of totally short sighted with a touch of attention deficit disorder that the west has slumped into. No lengthy political campaigns based on public popularity and if you bother to look up some of the top communist party members, they almost all have advanced engineering and science degrees. There isn't a lawyer in the bunch, where almost all US politicians have law school degrees.

It was Dung Chou Ping that made it a national goal to monopolize the rare earth supply over 15 years ago. They now control 97% of the global rare earth supply and are starting to be able to wield enormous pressure, economically and militarily. Rare earths are actually quite abundant but the processing capability takes 15 years to develop. There is an abandoned rare earth processing facility in the US and there is a mad panic now to get it up and running again, with the US government acknowledging it will take 15 to 20 years to get it back up -- if they could just work on it. That is not happening with reams of red tape blocking every effort.

The chinese are buying up oil across the planet, which is going to lead to another gas crisis in the US later this year. This is not because the chinese don't have oil reserves. In fact, they have recently discovered huge oil reserves in south china. But they have decided not to use those reserves, keeping them as strategic assets for whatever may be ahead.

It is said those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. There are many parallels shaping up which are very similar to Rome in its last days, the Romans becoming totally decadent and soft while the lean and mobile invaders from the east are sharpening their swords and arrows. Maybe the west pulls out of it but it looks like the general direction is push aside the problems to the future and hope somebody figures something out before its too late.
 

Inzane2050

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Jun 27, 2011
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#21
Btbam~

John Stewart merely satirizes the news, but the news clips themselves are legitimate news pieces from credible sources. And what part about suicide nets and the described working conditions do you not understand. Either way, I don't really care if you don't believe the truth. Everyone else in the world knows the truth as do I, and that is what really matters to me.
 
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btbam

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Jan 28, 2011
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#22
[QUOTE="Bligmerk, post: 5778346]We are all witnessing the success of totalitarian socialism over democratic capitalism. Ideologically, the Chinese government is communist but the chinese have been mostly capitalist for almost 3 thousand years, after all, they invented paper money, so they are closer to being socialist than communist.

The chinese have been publishing a 5 year plan since 1947. The capitalist west has no plans, just total chaos. The west is mired in democratically elected governments with incompetent leadership, put into office by a populace that is largely incompetent themselves.

So many people wonder why our elected governments are so bad. They only need to look in the mirror for the source of the problem. The chinese party, there is only one, just appoint a premier from within the party about every 5 years. So far, these leaders have been visionaries that are very far sighted, instead of totally short sighted with a touch of attention deficit disorder that the west has slumped into. No lengthy political campaigns based on public popularity and if you bother to look up some of the top communist party members, they almost all have advanced engineering and science degrees. There isn't a lawyer in the bunch, where almost all US politicians have law school degrees.

It was Dung Chou Ping that made it a national goal to monopolize the rare earth supply over 15 years ago. They now control 97% of the global rare earth supply and are starting to be able to wield enormous pressure, economically and militarily. Rare earths are actually quite abundant but the processing capability takes 15 years to develop. There is an abandoned rare earth processing facility in the US and there is a mad panic now to get it up and running again, with the US government acknowledging it will take 15 to 20 years to get it back up -- if they could just work on it. That is not happening with reams of red tape blocking every effort.

The chinese are buying up oil across the planet, which is going to lead to another gas crisis in the US later this year. This is not because the chinese don't have oil reserves. In fact, they have recently discovered huge oil reserves in south china. But they have decided not to use those reserves, keeping them as strategic assets for whatever may be ahead.

It is said those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. There are many parallels shaping up which are very similar to Rome in its last days, the Romans becoming totally decadent and soft while the lean and mobile invaders from the east are sharpening their swords and arrows. Maybe the west pulls out of it but it looks like the general direction is push aside the problems to the future and hope somebody figures something out before its too late.[/QUOTE]

China is far from socialst. They are almost unbridled capitalism. China is only communist in the sense that the party controls the government. The economy is capitalist though. More so than the U.S. in many respects. China is buying up oil because of demand. Oil is a fungible commerce item. Basically it moves where demand meets supply. Its why the gas prices in the U.S. are so high right now despite having a surplus of oil due to the warm winter. China won't be drilling per se. it would be an oil company, but China can regulate those companies.

@inzane. now your just arguing in hyperbole. what truth are you talking about? is it the U.S. truth or the chinese truth or the Inzane truth? Stewart specifically picked those clip and editited them in such a manner to provide the best punchline. Its not news, its not credible.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#25
I would never want to live in China or be under a totalitarian government like it has but the Chinese history and culture are undeniably impressive. Their culture of slave labor, from within their own people, goes back to the 1st emperor and probably before that. BTW, in the history of western civilization, it is mostly about one empire rising then collapsing. The Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Minoans, the Macedonians, the Greeks, the Romans, all rising, peaking and collapsing. The Western education system focuses "world" history almost entirely on European and Mediterranean history but during that whole time, the Chinese never went through the climbs and collapses. There were upheavals of course, but from the first emperor around 300BC to the last in the 1940's, it was a continuous transition. Even the communist party of today is solidly rooted in the imperial legacy. And while the communist party lashes out at imperialism, they endorse all of these movies like Red Cliff and The Emperor and the Assassin, primarily because the underlying theme is the unification of China and that is what is going on today with places like Taiwan and Tibet, considered part of the ancestral Chinese empire.

But back to the economics. I have known some people, Americans, that got in early on using cheap Chinese labor for their products and became very wealthy from outsourcing. And here is a clue to what is going on. These Americans didn't take this discount from cheaper labor costs and mark down their prices proportionally. They undercut the price of American manufactured goods but didn't reduce retail prices to reflect the reduced manufacturing cost. They pocketed this huge differential. Despite all the propaganda, American business is, and always has been, about exploitation. These Americans are willing to see the decline of their own country and citizens for their individual personal gain. It is kind of a joke but quite a few people firmly believe the line "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good". It is entirely American greed that is leading to this gigantic shift in power.

The other factor that is often ignored in all this, that the PLA (Peoples Liberation Army, recently changed to just the China Army) wasn't set up to be totally government funded. This was a doctrine from Mao, during the revolution, that the Army be capable of some self sustaining income, out of necessity. In the early days, the Army had their own farms and grew their own food, often with the use of the slave labor culled from the opposition. As time went on, the Army started growing more food than they needed and the party allowed the Army to derive profits from the sales of the surplus. As more time went on, along with the Great Leap Forward, this money was put into state run manufacturing factories, the beginnings of companies like Foxconn. In the early days, the 1970's, these factories were completely slave labor, criminals and enemies of the state. The products were total junk but they still found an export niche due to the cheapness. This policy never changed and is still going on, just made to look more glossy. The huge profits the Chinese government is seeing today are driven back into military spending. Americans are almost in a comatose stupor about the massive military build up that is going on in China today, while they wander around Walmart looking for the next throw-away piece of junk. Recent studies have shown that Walmart has over 7,000 products on their shelves and over 6,000 are made in China.

The real problem here is not the Chinese exploitation of their internal labor force. It is the almost pig-like consumer consumption of Americans and the inability to recognize it as an addiction. And much like an addict, soon finds all their money gone to their dealer and totally indebted to them.
 

DayWalker

The Heisman
May 9, 2006
13,153
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#26
[QUOTE="btbam, post: 5778341]22 people per 100,000 is nt a terrifying statistic. Honestly the U.S. rate is 11 out of 100,000. To me that does not represent much of a difference. They can't afford to do anything but exist. If it wasn't for that job, they would have starved or been sold into prostitutin, which is REAL slavery. John Stewart is a clown, its not real news no matter what you might want it to be. Come back with credible sources and then we can have a real coversation.[/QUOTE]

boo anyone who disparages the genius that is Jon Stewart and the Daily Show.
 

Bigdoggy

Master Guru
Jan 24, 2008
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#27
[QUOTE="Inzane2050, post: 5778299]Bigdoggy~

You can't go making things up like this $5000 American couch thing. This is actually how much a good America furniture set costs.
http://www.roomstogo.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=showItem&ipac_id=10763
Now why don't you provide an example of a Chinese made furniture set of equal value for comparison.[/QUOTE]

Where does it say it's made in the USA? just because it says "cindy crawford" doesn't mean it's made in America. LOL could be made in the USA, but even if it is, the reviews basically say it's crap from reviewers experiences. regardless, below is a link to another section within the pricerange that seems better in every way.

here... http://www.homefurnitureshowroom.co...476.html?linkloc=cataLogProductItemsName#aMfr

That sectional is not made in the USA, it's made in china. HOME sells that same sofa up the road from where I live.

I have pretty much the same sectional as that one in my basement, the only difference is there is no leather, it has that microfiber on it. costed me $2,300 for that section and it's also MADE IN CHINA. o_O

the store called HOME sells furniture made in China. I'm a home owner, I own my own home. I also bought furniture for my home and I went to so many damn stores to try and find furniture made in the USA. it was either way overpriced or so ugly not even a homeless person would want it and sometimes both.

- HOME

- schneiderman's

- Becker

USA made furniture is basically non-existent and the stores that do sell them have them at a HUGE markup. As well, I doubt you have that furniture set and for the record, have you done the research on that specific set of furniture. Go look at the review from people that have bought that set.

I have a $1,200 leather chair that is Italian leather, but guess what, it's made in china. :p so I really don't see what you are trying to say. plus, I believe the company that makes that line of furniture is "Divani Chateau Dax". which is also known to have. Now if that would have been an American made chair, I know for a fact the price for that specific chair would be around $3,500 if not more, because it's actually a modern chair. I designed my house to be modern and for it to fit well with modern furniture. While that sectional has a modern look, you never bothered to look at the material used Vs. the Price.

Plus, I would NEVER EVER order furniture over the internet. I have to sit in it to see if it's comfortable o_O So many people I know that ordered sofas online and didn't like them once they got them. screw that, I will go to a store.

If you want true USA furniture, tables, chairs. The way to get it and to make sure it's 100% made in the USA is to have the AMISH make it.
 
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Inzane2050

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Jun 27, 2011
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#29
Bigdoggy~

Calm down, bro. Anyways, Cindy Crawford furniture is all American-made. And it looks like the Chinese-made furniture you posted is actually of a higher listed price @ $2300. $2000<$2300. I guess that settles that.

And sorry you couldn't find any decent prices for USA-made furniture at the time.
 
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btbam

Super Elite
Jan 28, 2011
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The Moor
#30
Bligmerk. You need to go read you history books again. China never had rises and collapses? What about when the Mongols conqured the whole country. Even better what about that little tuft of land known as Manchuria conquring it. Only reason Manchuria is part of china now is because the Manchus invaded and took over. What about the opium wars? And the period where us, UK, France, Japan and Germany basically divided up china and colonized it.