Xbox Scorpio vs PS4 Pro

Two4DaMoney

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#31
[QUOTE="Sub-stance1, post: 6529776]From what I heard and read, checkerboarding is not without its drawbacks, namely artifacting and motion clarity. It can get close but never look as good as 4k. It will require more work from the developers. What people actually see is a different story. Sometimes it's hard to tell between 900p and 1080. Without those comparisons videos some people would never spot the differences.[/QUOTE]Native is definitely the better render if you got the power to pull it off. What I mean by that is you have to upgrade your textures and other graphical efx to go along with it. Pro doesn't have enough power to do that. In its case, the drawbacks of checkerboarding are worth it over hitting native 4k. The image quality after using checkerboarding looks better than hitting native 4k. The power that they would have used to hit native 4k is put towards other things.

Anyone who buys a scorpio probably already knows those games are multiplatform. MS just needs to show they will have the best version. That's really the only marketing they need. Many people wanted 1080p over 900p. They will surely take native 4k over checkerboard.
Previous xbone owners are going to be at the front of the line. 40% of the pros sales came from ps4 owners. I expect around the same %(maybe more) for scorpio buyers.

Of course people wanted 1080p over 900p. You can see the difference clearer than you can from checkerboarding to native 4k. That's not the only reason why the ps4 outsold the xbone. You're leaving out the fact that MS screwed up and charged more for their weaker console than a stronger console. They also screwed up charging the same price as the stronger console. The clear power difference and pricing was hand in hand when it came to sales.

The crowd you're describing doesn't need any convincing. It's going to take more than "The strongest console in the world. We have the best multiplats." to get that crowd back that MS is chasing. MS's biggest issue right now is new ips.
 

mynd

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#32
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529763]In all honesty I think it still comes to who has the better exclusive titles. Sony arguably crushes it in this category.[/quote]

Not really an argument you can level at the PS4 at launch.

Or at any point really untill recently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Lethal

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#33
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6529798]Not really an argument you can level at the PS4 at launch.

Or at any point really untill recently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Of course I can. Momentum is carried out through exclusive titles. Good start for PS4 and even better throughout the years because of the better titles that you can only get on the PS4. Or we can just say the XB1 is shit compared to the PS4 which is why the PS4 sells more.....

PS4 got the advantage on early on because of Microsofts stupid ideas. So what kept the momentum for Sony?
 

Two4DaMoney

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#34
edit:nvm. I don't need to get pulled into that. MS breeds its fanbase to display such behavior. No wonder they're in the position they're in with their reputation.
 
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mynd

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#35
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529800] Or we can just say the XB1 is $#@! compared to the PS4 which is why the PS4 sells more.....

PS4 got the advantage on early on because of Microsofts stupid ideas. So what kept the momentum for Sony?[/QUOTE]

Bingo.
Stupid ideas/bad launch/inferior product.
I love my Xbox, but Im a Halo nutter, all other things being equal why would you buy one.
Currently it has backwards compatibily and EA Acess in its favour thats about it.
If your just after game machine to play games (exclusives or otherwise), youd buy a PS4 hands down.
 
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Lethal

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#36
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6529805]Bingo.
Stupid ideas/bad launch/inferior product.[/QUOTE]

But it isn't shit compared to the PS4. XB1 does a lot of things correctly that the PS4 does not. And vise versa. I think it all comes down to the exclusive titles. Microsoft absolutely needs good new IP's. That is the secret to success. And 3rd party support of course. But they both already have that.
 
May 20, 2008
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#37
[QUOTE="Two4DaMoney, post: 6529795]Native is definitely the better render if you got the power to pull it off. What I mean by that is you have to upgrade your textures and other graphical efx to go along with it. Pro doesn't have enough power to do that. In its case, the drawbacks of checkerboarding are worth it over hitting native 4k. The image quality after using checkerboarding looks better than hitting native 4k. The power that they would have used to hit native 4k is put towards other things.

Previous xbone owners are going to be at the front of the line. 40% of the pros sales came from ps4 owners. I expect around the same %(maybe more) for scorpio buyers.

Of course people wanted 1080p over 900p. You can see the difference clearer than you can from checkerboarding to native 4k. That's not the only reason why the ps4 outsold the xbone. You're leaving out the fact that MS screwed up and charged more for their weaker console than a stronger console. They also screwed up charging the same price as the stronger console. The clear power difference and pricing was hand in hand when it came to sales.

The crowd you're describing doesn't need any convincing. It's going to take more than "The strongest console in the world. We have the best multiplats." to get that crowd back that MS is chasing. MS's biggest issue right now is new ips.[/QUOTE]

You're right, it is going to take more than that but don't forget that's exactly how sony started out with ps4. They made similar statements about ps4 being the most powerful and being the best place to play multiplats.

"This is a historic partnership that makes PlayStation the best place to play Call of Duty,"


“PlayStation 4 is the most powerful video game console ever created, so I think we’ve managed to find that middle ground between the power and that accessibility.”
And right now they have 3rd party ad partnerships in place. So its obvious they need 3rd party just as much as MS. Yea new IPs are great but its still the 3rd party that carries the industry. At least that's my opinion on it.

I don't think anyone has ever said scorpio is going to out sell ps4 or the ps4 pro. I'm saying that what was good for sony can also be good for ms. PS4 benefited from having the power advantage and I see no reason scorpio cant do the same. MS may need some exclusives but at the same time exclusives aren't enough to keep sony on top.
 

mynd

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#38
I thinkt the Scorpio is about to trounce the Pro frankly. Obviously that depends on price, but put it within $50 of the Pro and it will walk all over it.
The more I see of Scropio, the more the way MS poisitons it and advertises it, this isnt really Xbox One and half. This is Xbox Scorpio, a new console that runs Xbox One games a periphials.

I get the impresison this machine will have Scorpio builds of games not enhanced Xbox one games.
 
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May 20, 2008
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#39
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6529825]I thinkt the Scorpio is about to trounce the Pro frankly. Obviously that depends on price, but put it within $50 of the Pro and it will walk all over it.
The more I see of Scropio, the more the way MS poisitons it and advertises it, this isnt really Xbox One and half. This is Xbox Scorpio, a new console that runs Xbox One games a periphials.

I get the impresison this machine will have Scorpio builds of games not enhanced Xbox one games.[/QUOTE]

Ms seems to be pretty confident that scorpio will be the best place to play. I can wait to see their presentation. I wish they would just name it scorpio. I'm also intrigued about the controller design. They've been pretty quiet about that.
 

Christopher

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#40
I'm mainly interested in seeing the form factor and price. It has to appeal to the common crowd and not just hardcore gamers to get any real traction. Would certainly help a ton if MS pulled a Fallout 4 and announced an unanticipated game for the fall.

Sony has the luxury of going after Microsoft as always. They can always drop the price on Pro to really make it tough on Scorpio.
 

Lethal

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#44
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6529825]I get the impresison this machine will have Scorpio builds of games not enhanced Xbox one games.[/QUOTE]

That would be a bad idea. That would make it a completely next generation console if it has "Scorpio" only titles. And if that is the case, then it will give an unfair advantage to those playing multiplayer games on the Scorpio. If they allow devs to create games specifically for this new console, then they are already screwed.
 

FinalxxSin

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#45
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529854]That would be a bad idea. That would make it a completely next generation console if it has "Scorpio" only titles. And if that is the case, then it will give an unfair advantage to those playing multiplayer games on the Scorpio. If they allow devs to create games specifically for this new console, then they are already screwed.[/QUOTE]
The multi-player games would still provide the same FPS to all players in regards to the online aspect.
 

mynd

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#46
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529854]That would be a bad idea. That would make it a completely next generation console if it has "Scorpio" only titles. And if that is the case, then it will give an unfair advantage to those playing multiplayer games on the Scorpio. If they allow devs to create games specifically for this new console, then they are already screwed.[/QUOTE]

No not at all, PC players cross play all the time for starters. And having Scorpio builds of game son the same disc isn't that hard to do at all. Its not different to a game checking to see if the Pro is there, except they load an entirely different exe.

In fact in many ways it has to be a different exe this thing doesn't remotely have ESRAM, the memory timings are all up the whoop.
 

Fijiandoce

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#47
to dictate resource allocation like on Windows, which is unlikely - and defeats all purpose of a dedicated gaming box. You'd assume each game would ask for the entire address space on the console that isn't partitioned for the OS. The Scorpio has 2x more RAM, so its going to need something to say use that RAM.

However, i don't think its going to be anything special other than what's been discussed here over the last few months. The only real wiggle room for the Scorpio is the GPU, and even then, you rely on the CPU to feed the GPU still.

Personally, the more i hear about the Scorpio, the more it belongs in the skip with the Pro. Both consoles chase utterly frivolous targets. If MS launched with a Ryzen based APU, i'd be more keen. But that isn't the case. Same old Jaguar cores that devs routinely sugar coat.
 
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Shingo

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#50
It is a 500 mate. Crowd won't boo this time like they did on Xbox one tho

C6603 cihazımdan Tapatalk kullanılarak gönderildi
 

Fijiandoce

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#51
[video=youtube;w7VIFwYyj44]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7VIFwYyj44[/video]
^6:54

I'll take my cookies now. Seriously, give me all your cookies! :snicker

On a side note, i was under the assumption the Scorpio had 64 CU's, and would use Vega? I just saw the DF slide in the video and they only packing in 4 more CU's than Pro? This can't be a Vega core. This is pretty close to the RX 480...

If you take what MS has given: 6TF and 1172Mhz GPU core, you can work out the number of stream processors at ~2600. That's 64(ish) processors per CU (some one will need to do the proper math!) which puts it almost identical to the RX 480 (with just a few more CU).

Additionally; If the scorpio uses a 384bit memory interface, you can get the same bandwidth as an RX 480 using a slightly slower memory speed (again someone would need to cross the t's and dot the i's on that one).

Is this old news? I literally just saw the slide. Up until this point i have always thought the Scorpio was going to ship with 64 CU's...

If this is actually a Jaguar+Polaris paring like the Pro, it literally does belong in the skip right beside the Pro! These two consoles are literally rubbish!
 
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May 20, 2008
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#52
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6529916][video=youtube;w7VIFwYyj44]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7VIFwYyj44[/video]
^6:54

I'll take my cookies now. Seriously, give me all your cookies! :snicker

On a side note, i was under the assumption the Scorpio had 64 CU's, and would use Vega? I just saw the DF slide in the video and they only packing in 4 more CU's than Pro? This can't be a Vega core. This is pretty close to the RX 480...

If you take what MS has given: 6TF and 1172Mhz GPU core, you can work out the number of stream processors at ~2600. That's 64(ish) processors per CU (some one will need to do the proper math!) which puts it almost identical to the RX 480 (with just a few more CU).

Additionally; If the scorpio uses a 384bit memory interface, you can get the same bandwidth as an RX 480 using a slightly slower memory speed (again someone would need to cross the t's and dot the i's on that one).

Is this old news? I literally just saw the slide. Up until this point i have always thought the Scorpio was going to ship with 64 CU's...

If this is actually a Jaguar+Polaris paring like the Pro, it literally does belong in the skip right beside the Pro! These two consoles are literally rubbish!
[/QUOTE]
Has any developer has called the scorpio rubbish?
 

FinalxxSin

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#53
[QUOTE="Sub-stance1, post: 6529945]Has any developer has called the scorpio rubbish?[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter. The only question now is if these consoles are being made weaker due to costs strictly, or because the consoles are aimed to satisfy a wide demographic of people when it comes to income to spend. Fijiandoce is explaining things from a tech angle mainly.
 
May 20, 2008
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#54
[QUOTE="FinalxxSin, post: 6529947]Doesn't matter. The only question now is if these consoles are being made weaker due to costs strictly, or because the consoles are aimed to satisfy a wide demographic of people when it comes to income to spend. Fijiandoce is explaining things from a tech angle mainly.[/QUOTE]

Made weaker? I wouldn't consider a console that can do native 4k weak or classify it as "being made weak". Fijiandoce is just giving his opinion. he's never laid hands or eyes on the scorpio yet. When you compare scorpio'so performance to ps4 pro's, can we really say that it's made weak? I don't think so. I'm no expert but I know 6TFlops isn't weak.
 

Lethal

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#55
These consoles are not "weak" at all. I do hope people are not comparing them to the PC because consoles have always been weaker. Then again, a PC is not a home console and is in a category of it's own......

Scorpio and PS4 Pro are fantastic machines for what they are. My PS4 Pro does offer native 4K games such as the new Wipeout collection that just came out. 60fps and native 4K mind you.

Sure not all games offer this, but that is what we have to deal with until a true next gen console comes out. Scorpio will not offer native 4K with 60fps on all games either. The hardware simply will not provide this on all games.

I am more than happy with my $400 PS4 Pro and I will be very happy with my $550 Scorpio. Yes I am calling it right now as it just makes sense at that price.
 

Fijiandoce

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#56
[QUOTE="Sub-stance1, post: 6529945]Has any developer has called the scorpio rubbish?[/QUOTE]
Are you asking if any developer has called the Scorpio, and Pro, rubbish?

While they might not have said anything about either console, devs have stated (quite nicely) that the Jaguar cores are quite rubbish. Obviously, as i said before, they do sugar coat its shortcomings.

The fact that Scorpio is using Polaris is surprising is all. As i say, up until this point i thought it used a 64CU Vega core. The fact that it is literally the PS4 Pro is just more of a reason for me to dislike it, at the very least i thought it had Vega going for it.
[QUOTE="Sub-stance1, post: 6529949]Made weaker? I wouldn't consider a console that can do native 4k weak or classify it as "being made weak". Fijiandoce is just giving his opinion. he's never laid hands or eyes on the scorpio yet. When you compare scorpio'so performance to ps4 pro's, can we really say that it's made weak? I don't think so. I'm no expert but I know 6TFlops isn't weak.[/QUOTE]
Is the GPU weak? No.

Is the CPU weak? Hell yes.

Like i said with mynd, the CPU still feeds the GPU.

EDIT:
Also, the point in the video i marked has Richard stating that the render tech for Pro, would move forward to Scorpio (at least for Frostbite), instead of Scorpio being a whole new thing. I pretty mush said this.
 
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FinalxxSin

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#57
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529951]These consoles are not "weak" at all. I do hope people are not comparing them to the PC because consoles have always been weaker. Then again, a PC is not a home console and is in a category of it's own......

Scorpio and PS4 Pro are fantastic machines for what they are. My PS4 Pro does offer native 4K games such as the new Wipeout collection that just came out. 60fps and native 4K mind you.

Sure not all games offer this, but that is what we have to deal with until a true next gen console comes out. Scorpio will not offer native 4K with 60fps on all games either. The hardware simply will not provide this on all games.

I am more than happy with my $400 PS4 Pro and I will be very happy with my $550 Scorpio. Yes I am calling it right now as it just makes sense at that price.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I do have take what you type with some salt because I do have a strong understanding that you have more disposable income than a good number of people. If every console gen is going to play out the same as this one later on, I doubt as many people are going to be willing to buy 2 consoles.
 
May 20, 2008
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#58
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6529955]Are you asking if any developer has called the Scorpio, and Pro, rubbish?

While they might not have said anything about either console, devs have stated (quite nicely) that the Jaguar cores are quite rubbish. Obviously, as i said before, they do sugar coat its shortcomings.

The fact that Scorpio is using Polaris is surprising is all. As i say, up until this point i thought it used a 64CU Vega core. The fact that it is literally the PS4 Pro is just more of a reason for me to dislike it, at the very least i thought it had Vega going for it.

Is the GPU weak? No.

Is the CPU weak? Hell yes.

Like i said with mynd, the CPU still feeds the GPU.

EDIT:
Also, the point in the video i marked has Richard stating that the render tech for Pro, would move forward to Scorpio (at least for Frostbite), instead of Scorpio being a whole new thing. I pretty mush said this.[/QUOTE]

I've heard a dev say that by having DX12 built in will help illeveate some of the cpu concerns. AMD calls jaguars that run 15% faster, Pumas. Scorpio's CPU is much faster than a Puma. So it's definitely not a regular Jaguar.
 

Fijiandoce

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#59
[QUOTE="Sub-stance1, post: 6529957]I've heard a dev say that by having DX12 built in will help illeveate some of the cpu concerns. AMD calls jaguars that run 15% faster, Pumas. Scorpio's CPU is much faster than a Puma. So it's definitely not a regular Jaguar.[/QUOTE]
DX12 affects the renderer. It doesn't do anything for game logic, and world simulation, explicitly.

DX12 helps, but the fundamental design of the console necessitates a heavily threaded approach to begin with. So DX12 isn't a magic bullet.

Also, the "Puma" architecture uses the same Microarchitecture as Jaguar. AMD get away with calling it "Puma" for the integration of ARM Processors. Remove that and its just a Jagaur core. "Faster" is irrelevant for CPU's. IPC and Jaguar design shortcomings still persist. The Circuitry is unchanged.
 

FinalxxSin

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#60
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6529958]IPC and Jaguar design shortcomings still persist. The Circuitry is unchanged.[/QUOTE]
So what type of cores would need to be used in the future that are both effective and not a killer on the wallet at the same time?