Xbox Scorpio vs PS4 Pro

Fijiandoce

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#61
[QUOTE="FinalxxSin, post: 6529959]So what type of cores would need to be used in the future that are both effective and not a killer on the wallet at the same time?[/QUOTE]
You'd need to look at AMD's product line-up.

AMD only have the Ryzen core that offers anything substantial. AMD basically did squat from around 2013, and put all their R&D budget into Ryzen. Nothing from around that time is anything particularly special (for AMD at least), just power efficiency tweaks, and messing with the clock speeds.

The Ryzen APU's come out later this year, so it'll be the first time we see a 'small' Ryzen core. So really, this is all AMD can offer Sony and MS and its what we are likely to see in the next one (in whatever form that is).

I know mynd had hoped for a Ryzen based Scorpio, and not that i didn't want to see one also, but realistically it was always unlikely to happen given MS's statement last year about the 8 cores. The current Ryzen design comes with 4 cores, per core complex. So to get 8 cores, you need more circuitry to connect two of these complex's - which is an issue for an APU which has a premium on silicon space.
 

Lethal

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#62
I agree with Fij that the cpu is weak. That is my biggest concern with Scorpio. If the Scorpio is going to be priced at $550 or possibly higher. The console has to do $150+ more than the PS4 Pro. Will it out perform the PS4 Pro? Of course it will. Will be a night and day difference? I highly doubt it.
 
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#63
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529965]I agree with Fij that the cpu is weak. That is my biggest concern with Scorpio. If the Scorpio is going to be priced at $550 or possibly higher. The console has to do $150+ more than the PS4 Pro. Will it out perform the PS4 Pro? Of course it will. Will be a night and day difference? I highly doubt it.[/QUOTE]
Well, I think the most important thing is that it ran forza at 4k 60FPS and was only using 66% power. If it's doing that this early in its cycle I don't think the cpu will be much of an issue. You may not see a night and day difference but it will be obvious because of scorpio's superior core computational power. This is only the beginning. Microsoft is known for performance tweaks and it's a given that they will continue to improve it.
 

WaxWeazle

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#64
Everybody's going all about the hardware.. Am I the only one who's just not getting an xbox because the exclusive games aren't interesting enough to me? Same reason I'm not getting a switch.

Although I do love the look of a Scorpio devkit! Might want to try get one of those for the collection at some point!
 

Lethal

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#65
[QUOTE="Sub-stance1, post: 6529966]Well, I think the most important thing is that it ran forza at 4k 60FPS and was only using 66% power. If it's doing that this early in its cycle I don't think the cpu will be much of an issue. You may not see a night and day difference but it will be obvious because of scorpio's superior core computational power. This is only the beginning. Microsoft is known for performance tweaks and it's a given that they will continue to improve it.[/QUOTE]

That does not impress me honestly. Forza Horizon 2 in 4K @60fps would impress me. I am not positive, but I think they only said Forza 6 was hitting 4k and 60fps. And that is a linear racing title.


[QUOTE="WaxWeazle, post: 6529967]Everybody's going all about the hardware.. Am I the only one who's just not getting an xbox because the exclusive games aren't interesting enough to me? Same reason I'm not getting a switch.

Although I do love the look of a Scorpio devkit! Might want to try get one of those for the collection at some point![/QUOTE]

I agree the Xbox does not have good exclusives. Although I would kill for a Sunset Overdrive 2!!!!!! But I am buying it because I love new consoles.

The Switch does have some good exclusives. Nintendo always does.
 

WaxWeazle

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#66
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529969]I agree the Xbox does not have good exclusives. Although I would kill for a Sunset Overdrive 2!!!!!! But I am buying it because I love new consoles.

The Switch does have some good exclusives. Nintendo always does.[/QUOTE]
Not to me. I have a WiiU that's eating dust as well. At this point, there's just no interest for either of these consoles for me.
 

FinalxxSin

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#67
[QUOTE="WaxWeazle, post: 6529970]Not to me. I have a WiiU that's eating dust as well. At this point, there's just no interest for either of these consoles for me.[/QUOTE]
The Switch only has the latest Zelda game which can be played on the Wii U as well far as I know. The Switch imo doesn't have a large enough library of games yet to purchase, but it's common sense that Zelda is a console seller. I think the reason why talks have shifted more toward hardware is because the reveals of consoles have leaned more on the hardware aspect, and it is something to take into consideration taking into account how lacking in power the PS4 and Xbox One were coming out the gate. I don't know about the Scorpio, but I do understand the PS4 Pro was made partly to compete with PC in the sense of losing fewer people to it half way through the life cycle or however long it's going to be.
 
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#68
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6529969]That does not impress me honestly. Forza Horizon 2 in 4K @60fps would impress me. I am not positive, but I think they only said Forza 6 was hitting 4k and 60fps. And that is a linear racing title.




I agree the Xbox does not have good exclusives. Although I would kill for a Sunset Overdrive 2!!!!!! But I am buying it because I love new consoles.

The Switch does have some good exclusives. Nintendo always does.[/QUOTE]

Maybe so but that was only in 2 days and with power to spare. It wouldn't surprise me if they could do similar things with FH also.
 

WaxWeazle

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#69
[QUOTE="FinalxxSin, post: 6529974]The Switch only has the latest Zelda game which can be played on the Wii U as well far as I know. The Switch imo doesn't have a large enough library of games yet to purchase, but it's common sense that Zelda is a console seller. I think the reason why talks have shifted more toward hardware is because the reveals of consoles have leaned more on the hardware aspect, and it is something to take into consideration taking into account how lacking in power the PS4 and Xbox One were coming out the gate. I don't know about the Scorpio, but I do understand the PS4 Pro was made partly to compete with PC in the sense of losing fewer people to it half way through the life cycle or however long it's going to be.[/QUOTE]
All good and well but.. it's sinply my opinion that I'm stating. I don't have any interest in it. Ain't changing because people go defend the whole system with reasons lol
 

FinalxxSin

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#70
[QUOTE="WaxWeazle, post: 6529977]All good and well but.. it's sinply my opinion that I'm stating. I don't have any interest in it. Ain't changing because people go defend the whole system with reasons lol[/QUOTE]
That's completely fine WaxWeazle. It was never my intention to change your mind on the situation.
 

WaxWeazle

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#71
[QUOTE="FinalxxSin, post: 6529978]That's completely fine WaxWeazle. It was never my intention to change your mind on the situation.[/QUOTE]
No worries :p just making sure people know it's my opinion!
 

mynd

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#72
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6529958]DX12 affects the renderer. It doesn't do anything for game logic, and world simulation, explicitly.

DX12 helps, but the fundamental design of the console necessitates a heavily threaded approach to begin with. So DX12 isn't a magic bullet.

Also, the "Puma" architecture uses the same Microarchitecture as Jaguar. AMD get away with calling it "Puma" for the integration of ARM Processors. Remove that and its just a Jagaur core. "Faster" is irrelevant for CPU's. IPC and Jaguar design shortcomings still persist. The Circuitry is unchanged.[/QUOTE]

If you can take 1000 of cycles dedicated to feeding the gpu and bring that down, thats more cyles for other stuff. Its that simple.


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Fijiandoce

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#73
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6529987]If you can take 1000 of cycles dedicated to feeding the gpu and bring that down, thats more cyles for other stuff. Its that simple.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
It helps, it doesn't change the fact games are already coded to be very thread aware - as a result of that era of AMD CPU's focusing on threading above IPC, and the fact the jaguar core suck balls to begin with ;)

If your main thread is getting bogged down with AI pathifinding DX12 does diddly squat.
 

mynd

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#74
So Gears will have..
-Locked 4k rendered
-4k Textures
-Volumetric Light scattering (god rays)
-increased shadow quailty
-More dynamic shadows
-Dolby Atmos sound

But hey, CPU is too weak to add all this stuff right?
I mean you still have to feed the GPU and the CPU is the weak link....Im sorry Fiji, but your arguments isnt really stacking up well here, yes most of this stuff is rendering, but this is stuff that still has to have muiltpe buffers and draw calls sent to it via the CPU. There is more room in this CPU than you think clearly.

Seems pretty clear to me this thing can take any 1080 game and not only render it in 4k but add additonal features.

Every multiplat should fricken rock on this machine.
 
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Lethal

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#75
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6530191]So Gears will have..
-Locked 4k rendered
-Volumetric Light scattering (god rays)
-increased shadow quailty
-More dynamic shadows
-Dolby Atmos sound

But hey, CPU is too weak to add all this stuff right?
I mean you still have to feed the GPU and the CPU is the weak link....

Seems pretty clear to me this thing can take any 1080 game and not only render it in 4k but add additonal features.[/QUOTE]


Yes but the game is linear and still locked at 30fps. Much easier to do in this game and Forza. PS4 Pro does all of this in Horizon Zero Dawn.
 
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mynd

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#76
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6530192]Yes but the game is linear and still locked at 30fps. Much easier to do in this game and Forza. PS4 Pro does all of this in Horizon Zero Dawn.[/QUOTE]

WTF is doesnt do it in 4k. Keep your checkerboards in check there Lethal :)
 
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Lethal

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#77
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6530193]WTF is doesnt do it in 4k. Kepe your checkerboards in check there Lethal :)[/QUOTE]

Horizon is 2160p. I also bet from a distance you wouldn't be able to point out native vs checkerboard......

Even still, the PS4 Pro does all of that besides the native 4K in that game. And Horizon is a massive open world. I want to see if One X can handle a game of this size and still pull off the native 4K. That would be sweet.
 
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mynd

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#78
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6530195]Horizon is 2160p. [/quote]

No its not. It cheats, its rendered in checkerboard Checkerboard is a form of scaling.

There are very few native 4k Pro games.

I also bet from a distance you wouldn't be able to point out native vs checkerboard......
Ill wait till DF starts ripping aprt games.
Even still, the PS4 Pro does all of that besides the native 4K in that game. And Horizon is a massive open world. I want to see if One X can handle a game of this size and still pull off the native 4K. That would be sweet.
The thing is, the Pro adds very little beyond a res bump (not even to 4k) and some slight texture res increases on selected textures, and a better texture filter. Very little is actually added to the game form the PS4 version. Where as here we are seeing a game that is adding quite a bit to the game even at a locked 4k.

This is good start to making a differentiating factor betwen Xbox One and Xbox One X games beyond just reoslution.
 

Lethal

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#79
We will see if One X can do native 4K in a game like Horizon. Horizon is still one of the most beautiful games ever made.

And we have not seen anything added to Gears 4 yet.
 

Fijiandoce

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#80
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6530191]So Gears will have..
-Locked 4k rendered
-4k Textures
-Volumetric Light scattering (god rays)
-increased shadow quailty
-More dynamic shadows
-Dolby Atmos sound

But hey, CPU is too weak to add all this stuff right?
I mean you still have to feed the GPU and the CPU is the weak link....Im sorry Fiji, but your arguments isnt really stacking up well here, yes most of this stuff is rendering, but this is stuff that still has to have muiltpe buffers and draw calls sent to it via the CPU. There is more room in this CPU than you think clearly.[/QUOTE]
You should know better, mynd.

Excluding the Dolby Atmos sound, those additions are Bandwidth limited primarily. The only real additional CPU load is the dynamic shadows count.

Volumetric lighting is done through shaders, and the CPU compiling should be taken care of on level load, leaving the work purely GPU side during real time. Obviously, the GPU allows them to use a much higher quality shader.

Also, keep some perspective. I'm not blind to the fact there is a 600Mhz overclock to the core. This fact isn't lost on me, and i have never stated anythng otherwise.
 
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mynd

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#81
[QUOTE="Fijiandoce, post: 6530313]You should know better, mynd.

Excluding the Dolby Atmos sound, those additions are Bandwidth limited primarily. The only real additional CPU load is the dynamic shadows count. [/quote]

I do know better, and I know what a dynamic shadow requires to be rendered. You have to add aditional render views inculding the draw calls. Thats a lot of CPU usage.
Volumetric lighting is done through shaders, and the CPU compiling should be taken care of on level load, leaving the work purely GPU side during real time. Obviously, the GPU allows them to use a much higher quality shader.
Still another draw call, they all add up.
Also, keep some perspective. I'm not blind to the fact there is a 600Mhz overclock to the core. This fact isn't lost on me, and i have never stated anythng otherwise.
 

Fijiandoce

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#82
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6530314]I do know better, and I know what a dynamic shadow requires to be rendered. You have to add aditional render views inculding the draw calls. Thats a lot of CPU usage.

Still another draw call, they all add up.[/QUOTE]
If i recall, i have a post a few months back (can't be arsed looking back) that basically said this was the kind of improvement you'd get.

I believe it was when everyone thought this would be a 60FPS (with the Ryzen rumours) machine. You're free to pull it up if you want.
 

mynd

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#83
Perhaps a better quesiton would be what do you think people are expecting which they wont get on a X verison of the game, because Im starting to wonder if your trying to downplay something that no one is expecting anyway.
 

Fijiandoce

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#84
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6530318]Perhaps a better quesiton would be what do you think people are expecting which they wont get on a X verison of the game, because Im starting to wonder if your trying to downplay something that no one is expecting anyway.[/QUOTE]
I think the fact i routinely bunch the XBX and Pro in the same group says more than enough. If someone takes offence to me talking about either, then the issue is theirs. I have no obligation to go with the flow and drape myself over a new piece of plastic. If i have my reservations, i will post them.

To date, the only title i can recall off the top of my head that's done something unique this gen (as a necessity) is Horizon. They use the GPU to calculate the position of certain in game meshes (it's a only a small thing, but its something new)

With the GPU now being the thing that 'scales', there is little incentive to pursue proper innovation. It's just a means to pump the renderer with pretty lights so they can sell x more units.

And im not all negative, i've been trying to find info about the XBX's vapour chamber (literally one of the coolest additions to a console to date!), and how it affects cooling, does the orientation suffer as a result? etc.

As i've said, got no issue with the GPU, or anything else in the system. But as long as it has Jaguar cores, the core game experience is going to be identical to that of the XB1, and PS4.... which begs the question; why do they exist? $500 for a experience identical to the base model? 1080p30 vs 4k30? Why?

EDIT:
Uncharted also used that Pixar-esque tech for mesh deformation. That was also quite cool.
 
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#85
[QUOTE="Lethal, post: 6530195]Horizon is 2160p. I also bet from a distance you wouldn't be able to point out native vs checkerboard......

Even still, the PS4 Pro does all of that besides the native 4K in that game. And Horizon is a massive open world. I want to see if One X can handle a game of this size and still pull off the native 4K. That would be sweet.[/QUOTE]

That's sounds like a slogan. " Our games aren't native 4k but you can't tell"....lol
 

mynd

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#86
$500 for a experience identical to the base model?
But its pretty clear the Xbox One X will have a significant graphical improvement even at 4k, Gears shows us that. Compared to the Pro, which doesnt even hit 4k, and as far as I know, adds little to nothing on Pro titles beyond the odd texture filter improvement and some draw distance improvements.
 
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Fijiandoce

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#87
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6530325]But its pretty clear the Xbox One X will have a significant graphical improvement even at 4k, Gears shows us that. Compared to the Pro, which doesnt even hit 4k, and as far as I know, adds little to nothing on Pro titles beyond the odd texture filter improvement and some draw distance improvements.[/QUOTE]
If you made a scorpio exclusive game, i'd wager you could do quite nicely (and the Pro too to some extent). But, these massive GPU's are (for all intents and purpose) stuck to that same Jaguar cores the base models use. So all either of them are gunna do with it is push pixels (generally speaking, for the most part).

You wont get something like uncharted's mesh deformation on the top SKU, but not the base SKU - Both need to be identical (As sony and MS have stated). So everything a dev house does, still needs to be running on the base model. This makes the new upgrades kinda frivolous (in almost the exact meaning of the word).
 

Duffman

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#88
[QUOTE="mynd, post: 6530325]But its pretty clear the Xbox One X will have a significant graphical improvement even at 4k, Gears shows us that. Compared to the Pro, which doesnt even hit 4k, and as far as I know, adds little to nothing on Pro titles beyond the odd texture filter improvement and some draw distance improvements.[/QUOTE]

So what your actually saying is the PS4 Pro doesn't actually do 4K whereas the One X does? That's a pretty big claim Mynd............
 

mynd

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#89
[QUOTE="Duffman, post: 6530335]So what your actually saying is the PS4 Pro doesn't actually do 4K whereas the One X does? That's a pretty big claim Mynd............[/QUOTE]

Its highly dependant on the title but there are far more none 4k games rinning on pro than actual 4k games.


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mynd

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#90
[QUOTE="Duffman, post: 6530335]So what your actually saying is the PS4 Pro doesn't actually do 4K whereas the One X does? That's a pretty big claim Mynd............[/QUOTE]

Roughly 50% of pro supported titles are sub 4k


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